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RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 12:45:17 AM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Hi Gil,

I like that idea much better. Those "special" abilities as you mention, btw same as i would think of, Heroes and dreaded to be restricted. Getting it through combat seems excellent. Make sense that a unit like the Iron brigade with its combat record, IMO certainly is applical.  A Dynamic approche where if other units did as it did historicly to get same bonus, sounds good.

It should prolly be fixed at the same time in Freedmen, making it impossible for them to start with it. As it is now, where in certain games u can get lucky and gets lots, its an possible inbalancer under a new system. I dont really consider them as LU's, any how.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 31
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 12:49:18 AM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		What do you mean by "Freedmen"?

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 32
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 12:52:28 AM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Hi Gil,

Afroamerican units that US side gains in Potomac after an US emancipation.
Do i remember incorrectly or just misspelled? been a while since i played. Been waiting for the patch and played EU3 in the mean time ;-)

Kind Regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 2/15/2007 1:07:21 AM >

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 33
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 1:00:41 AM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		No, that's what I mean by the word "Freedmen," too. I just couldn't figure out what they had to do with special abilities. I guess you're saying that you want it so that such units can't gain "Heroes" (presumably because they would not exactly have raised the morale of adjacent all-white units)?

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 34
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 1:19:13 AM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Hi Gil,

No, sorry if i wasnt clear.  In about a 1/3 of my games. Half of the freedmen(can end up with being quite a number of units) unit starts with the Heroes ability. Rest has Sustained volley ability. In the other 2/3 all the units has Sustained Volley.
Its in those cases where the Freedmen units starts with Heroes that IMO under a new system should be addressed. Aka removed from start. I have no problem with them gained it. If an All black unit did as for example Iron brigade i dont see why they shouldnt gain it like any other unit.

Do i make sense now?


Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 2/15/2007 1:35:37 AM >

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 35
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 1:23:40 AM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline 		Yes. I'll have to look into it. (I thought you were referring to the units that the CSA gets after emancipation by the Union. I don't remember the Union getting added troops, but that might be because I usually playtest as the CSA.)


< Message edited by Gil R. -- 2/15/2007 1:38:04 AM >

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 36
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 1:54:18 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		The Freedman units appear in Potomac for US and are a set random chance after emancipation. Each one always starts at 3 morale ( I believe) and has one trait assigned.

For me it was never a very high chance that they would appear, I believe I have gotten maybe 6 total in over 2 yearsplay time as the union. Normally by mid 64 I was lucky to have 3 , 4 max. I like to gather them all together under one Division for the Flag to go with them ).

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 37
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 2:03:23 AM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Hi Twotribes,

My experience are some what more erratic. In some games i get 6 units like u in others i might get as high as 30-40 units. In 1 game I had an entire back up army made up of only freedmen. Yes, in my experiecne so I assume its hardcoded they are all 3 moral.

The odd thing is that i get many or almost non. Never inbetween. This is in maybe 20 played games as US side. And its usually when i get many that i get the Heroes ability ones too.


Kind Regards,

Rasmus

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 38
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 2:40:09 AM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
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Status: offline 		Freedmen units do start with a randomly chosen special ability.

_____________________________



(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 39
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 2:54:21 AM   
christof139


Posts: 980
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline 		Hmmm?? Wouldn't it be more accurate to give newly created Freedman units only a 0.25 to 0.50 boost in morale, as some units performed very well and average while other units performed poorly??  By giving all newly created Freedman units a 3.0 morale plus an attribute, that is making all of them elite units from the get-go, which they weren't.

Chris

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 40
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 3:45:05 AM   
rook749


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes
For me it was never a very high chance that they would appear, I believe I have gotten maybe 6 total in over 2 yearsplay time as the union. Normally by mid 64 I was lucky to have 3 , 4 max. I like to gather them all together under one Division for the Flag to go with them ).


Freedman units have a 10% chance each turn to show up after emancipation. That’s why they are rare. Too me that % is a little low.

Rook

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 41
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 5:17:40 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
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From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: christof139

Hmmm?? Wouldn't it be more accurate to give newly created Freedman units only a 0.25 to 0.50 boost in morale, as some units performed very well and average while other units performed poorly?? By giving all newly created Freedman units a 3.0 morale plus an attribute, that is making all of them elite units from the get-go, which they weren't.

Chris



If you think 3 is elite I wonder if you have EVER paid for a brigade? 3 is better than muster but that depends on training centers and it is better than conscript. BUT it is no where near an elite status.

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 42
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 5:22:33 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		US units when purchased have a starting morale of 4 and CSA units have a starting morale of 5. I would suggest 3 is no great increase for freedmen units.

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 43
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 9:06:34 AM   
christof139


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quote:

If you think 3 is elite I wonder if you have EVER paid for a brigade? 3 is better than muster but that depends on training centers and it is better than conscript. BUT it is no where near an elite status.


No, I have never paid for an entire Bde. before., been in a few, but never paid for one.

No, I only play FoF and have never bought a play game Bde. either while playing because I diddled with the game engine so I always get free Bdes. while the AI pays twice the normal price.

If most other regular run-of-the-mill units start at about 2.0, why start Freedman units at 3.0? That is a very large difference and in effect makes the Freedmen start as elite units in comparison to most other units. I don't see any historical accuracy in that. There were some Freedman units as well as other regular units that do start with a higher morale, and I think these all should only be Legendary Units that do so.

Very simple.

Have you ever bought a Bde. before????

Chris


(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 44
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 10:20:15 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		I will repeat, 4 NOT 2 is the training of the US army when you buy the Brigades. 3 is NOT greater than 4. While it is true the starting forces are mostly 2 or under, that is NOT the training of the standard US Brigade. Mustered units arrive at 2, plus training camp increases. So the advantage given the freedmen units is that they are better than mustered units but worse then built units.

And compared to Southern brigades they still are poorly trained, since the training of the CSA is 5 for purchased units.

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 45
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 1:03:37 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Hi Eric,


Freedmen units do start with a randomly chosen special ability.

Ok, but i only ever seen em have 1 of the following 2. Either Sustained volley or heroes.
The norm being Sustained Volley. As said earlier its only in some games heroes typed ones show up, but then around 50% is heroes. In other games its purely Sustained Volley. Not a single Heroes.

This is my experince in 20 played games, emancipating as soon as Kentucky joins US side. So i guess I've seen several hundred Freedmen.


Kind regards,

Rasmus


(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 46
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/15/2007 6:29:05 PM   
Gil R.


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Joined: 4/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: christof139

If most other regular run-of-the-mill units start at about 2.0, why start Freedman units at 3.0? That is a very large difference and in effect makes the Freedmen start as elite units in comparison to most other units. I don't see any historical accuracy in that.



Actually, there is accuracy to it. If you read accounts of the training and performance of troops who were former slaves, they were remarkably disciplined and took to training very well, having been forced to obey commands their entire lives. So freedmen get a higher quality to reflect this.

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 47
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/16/2007 4:10:46 PM   
christof139


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quote:

Actually, there is accuracy to it. If you read accounts of the training and performance of troops who were former slaves, they were remarkably disciplined and took to training very well, having been forced to obey commands their entire lives. So freedmen get a higher quality to reflect this.


Yes, I have read plenty about this, and have a few books. However, thsi was not always the case in reality as it is always the case in the game, and that is not realistic.

Many times, green units of Freedmen got wiped just as did green units of Caucasian troops. Not any difference in the majority of cases. Both had green units that performed well and green units that didn't perform so well. The 54th Mass. at Olustee, after Ft. Wagner, didn't do too well in that instance.

We're not questioning bravery, but rather the tactical outcome of engagements, where fool-hardy bravery can get you killed real quick. That is what good training is for, and many units both Freedmen and Caucasian were not trained too well and suffered the consequences.

Giving all new Freedmen units a large boost in morale is not relaistic nor histroical at all. certain units yes, nost units no.

Chris

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 48
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/16/2007 4:59:25 PM   
Twotribes


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Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Once again, it is NOT a large boost. Purchased Union Brigades start with 4, the Freedman units only have a 3.... I would say they start at a disadvantage.

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 49
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/16/2007 5:11:11 PM   
christof139


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quote:

Once again, it is NOT a large boost. Purchased Union Brigades start with 4, the Freedman units only have a 3.... I would say they start at a disadvantage.


Oh, thanx for explaining that. I was under the impression that purchased green Union Bdes. started at 2.0, as that what seems to be the case with the South.

A 1.0 raising of morale is a large boost in the game.

I have Southern Bdes. that have been around for awhile with 2.58, 3.0 and some 4.xx's now, late 1863, and seems they are starting as purchased at 2.00. I will check this one Bde. I just built.

Ta, Chris

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 50
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/16/2007 5:23:25 PM   
christof139


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quote:

Once again, it is NOT a large boost. Purchased Union Brigades start with 4, the Freedman units only have a 3.... I would say they start at a disadvantage.


Uh-huh. Purchased CSA Bdes. seem to be starting at 2.00, so why would purchased Union Bdes. start at 4.00???

Chris

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 51
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/16/2007 5:24:47 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		No, the reason I asked you if you had ever built through the production screen was that according to the rules, all produced units of the Union start at 4 and all produced units of the CSA start at 5.

Mustered units arrive at 2 and conscripted units lower.

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 52
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/16/2007 5:33:08 PM   
christof139


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quote:

No, the reason I asked you if you had ever built through the production screen was that according to the rules, all produced units of the Union start at 4 and all produced units of the CSA start at 5.

Mustered units arrive at 2 and conscripted units lower.


Seems my purchased Confed. Inf. Bdes. are starting at 2.0 at the Major Setting of play. I don't know what the Union starts at. I'll have to play the Union sometime in the future.

Chris

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 53
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/16/2007 6:23:54 PM   
Gil R.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: christof139

quote:

No, the reason I asked you if you had ever built through the production screen was that according to the rules, all produced units of the Union start at 4 and all produced units of the CSA start at 5.

Mustered units arrive at 2 and conscripted units lower.


Seems my purchased Confed. Inf. Bdes. are starting at 2.0 at the Major Setting of play. I don't know what the Union starts at. I'll have to play the Union sometime in the future.

Chris




Are you sure of this? When I purchase CSA brigades they come in at 5.0 quality, while mustered ones are in the low 2.0 range.

(in reply to christof139)
Post #: 54
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/16/2007 7:50:45 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Might need to check your files, starting training for Confeds is coded at 5 and Union at 4. And it is part of the rules.

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 55
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/17/2007 1:39:47 AM   
christof139


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quote:

Are you sure of this? When I purchase CSA brigades they come in at 5.0 quality, while mustered ones are in the low 2.0 range.


I'll buid another Bde., and/or look at past saves, but I do believe I am getting newly purchased Confed Inf. Bdes. with morale of 2.0.

It wouldn't matter what the rules state if this is actually occurring. I'll check it tonight.

Chris


(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 56
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/17/2007 1:56:40 AM   
christof139


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quote:

Are you sure of this? When I purchase CSA brigades they come in at 5.0 quality, while mustered ones are in the low 2.0 range.


OK, I was wrong. I went back a few turns and caught a Bde. coming out of NO, and it had a morale of 5.0, and this is mid-1864, not late 1863 as I thought. It was a long night last night on the monitor screen.

I thought I had another Bde. recruited in the carolinas that came out with a morale of 2.0, but that my be a mix-up on my end, as I have a lot of orignal units and the ones that rallied when the North declared Emancipation that have morales in the 2.0's, though most are Inspired and Zealous by now.

i will keep my eyes open in case this sactually did occur, but if it is coded then that would be impossible, so I must have confused some units with each other.

Thanx for the info. too, BTW.

When i start playing I don't go over everything with a fine-toothed comb, and take things as they come, and there is a lot to digest and learn, and my beady little eyes do get a little frizzed by the monitor screen. I better get new bifocals next week.

Chris

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 57
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/17/2007 4:30:22 AM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
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Status: offline 		No big deal. Best to report things like this, since that's how bugs get discovered.

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Post #: 58
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/25/2007 9:07:35 PM   
Gil R.


Posts: 10821
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Status: offline 		Okay, I'm now done assigning 0-5 teachable special abilities to each of the 25-percenters and 100-percenters. (Those for 9-percenters will remain randomized until each one's bio is written, whereupon we'll be giving them historically-based abilities, too.) On the whole, I'm quite please with the way this has turned out: aggressive generals have aggressive offensive abilities to teach, defensive generals have defensive abilities to teach, etc. Over time, generals' forces will take on some of their commander's traits, which is how it should be. Also, in doing research I came up with a whole bunch of ideas for new abilities that we might have time to program later in the year. (As I've noted elsewhere, if FOF sells well enough to justify doing so we would like to make an expansion pack, and could retrofit all sorts of new goodies into the original game then.)

While for most generals I think I did a pretty good job (with some input from you higher up in this thread, of course), a few vex me, so I thought I'd ask for your input on those guys.

R.S. Ewell: I've got no idea what to give him, so for now he's just randomized. He merits three teaching slots.
I. McDowell: Ditto, though he merits just one slot.
D.C. Buell: Ditto, and ditto.
J. Pope: Already has Diggers, but merits another ability. (He can always have Diggers twice, I guess.)
P.G.T. Beauregard: Actually does have Diggers twice, but merits one more ability.
J.B. McPherson: Has Foragers and Diggers, but merits one more.
H. Heth: Has Foragers, but merits one more.
J.B. Magruder: I'm not sure he merits any teachable abilities. But if he does, which one(s)?



(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 59
RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities - 2/26/2007 2:35:17 AM   
GenGrunt

 

Posts: 7
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Status: offline 		Magruder fought in the Peninsula campaign so maybe swampwise and something of a trickster after fooling the yankees by marching a regiment through a clearing all day so they imagined a much larger force

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 60
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