Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (Full Version)

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Gil R. -> Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 12:05:24 AM)

As I've been noting on other threads, I've been giving the datafile for generals an overhaul for the upcoming patch. In addition to making start dates more accurate, I would like to get more "historical" special abilities for generals to teach. As bios get written for the 9-percenters I've been adding abilities for some that seem worthy. (We do not want a game in which every general can give bonuses through teaching, just the good generals.) But I want to get the abilities for the 25- and 100-percenters into better shape than they currently are. So, I thought I'd solicit suggestions for which generals should have which abilities. For example, Stonewall Jackson should have "Disciplined" and the "King of Spades" should have "Diggers." So, please weigh in on this. (Note: In cases of generals for whom there are no obvious abilities I'll just let the game choose randomly each time.)



Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 12:05:42 AM)

So here's the list of all the generals to consider:

Burnside,_A.E.
Early,_J.A.
Forrest,_N.B.
McDowell,_I.
Meade,_G.G.
Pope,_J.
Grant,_U.S.
Hooker,_J.
Hardee,_W.J.
Jackson,_T.J.
Johnston,_A.S.
Johnston,_J.E.
Lee,_R.E.
Longstreet,_J.
McClellan,_G.B.
Beauregard,_P.G.
Sheridan,_P.H.
Sherman,_W.T.
Pickett,_G.E.
Stuart,_J.E.B.
Van_Dorn,_E.
Ewell,_R.S.
Hood,_J.B.
Buford,_J.
Butler,_B.F.
Bragg,_B.
Cleburne,_P.R.
Reynolds,_J.F.
Halleck,_H.W.
Hancock,_W.S.
Hampton,_W.
Hill,_A.P.
Hill,_D.H.
Wheeler,_J.
Thomas,_G.H.
Zollicoffer,_F.K.
Pettigrew,_J.J.
Rosecrans,_W.S.
Buell,_D.C.
McPherson,_J.B.
Custer,_G.A.
Doubleday,_A.
Gregg,_D.M.
Lyon,_N.
Heth,_H.
Lee,_F.
McLaws,_L.
Magruder,_J.B.
Morgan,_J.H.
Chamberlain,_J.L.
Anderson,_R.H.
Armistead,_L.A.
Pender,_W.D.
Warren,_G.K.
Sedgwick,_J.
Polk,_L.
Rodes,_R.E.
Shelby,_J.O.



Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 12:07:26 AM)

And here are the abilities (descriptions of which must be in the manual somewhere):

Disciplined
Brave
Wild
Fast
Hardy
Oblique_Fire
Diggers
Night_Owls
Independent
Shooters
Flankers
Swampwise
Chargers
Steady
Blasted
Obedient
Foragers
Polar_Bears
Woodsmen
Sustained_Volley
Dreaded
Heroes
Resilient
Organized
Bulldogs



Twotribes -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 12:12:08 AM)

I would suggest That Jackson and any of his historical Division commanders should be considered for the trait "Fast". and or Resilient.

As I recall his Corps or at least a Division of it was considered exceedly gifted at movment over great distances. And they could travel a great distance and still fight if needed, quickly.



will b -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 12:33:17 AM)

N.B. Forrest - Dreaded

W.T. Sherman - Foragers



Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 12:39:15 AM)

Twotribes, remember that special abilities like "Fast" only apply in battle, not movements on the strategic map. (Fast gives +3 movement.)

Perhaps it would be better to use "Hardy," which reduces the change of a unit getting fatigued. Presumably, units that marched a lot, like those under Sherman, would be less easily fatigued. (But, of course, everyone marched somewhere at some point...)



Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 12:53:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: will b

N.B. Forrest - Dreaded

W.T. Sherman - Foragers


Thanks, those are both very good -- especially "Foragers" for Sherman. (Foragers, by the way, is the only special ability that affects a unit on the strategic map rather than the battlefield.)



Twotribes -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 1:57:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Twotribes, remember that special abilities like "Fast" only apply in battle, not movements on the strategic map. (Fast gives +3 movement.)

Perhaps it would be better to use "Hardy," which reduces the change of a unit getting fatigued. Presumably, units that marched a lot, like those under Sherman, would be less easily fatigued. (But, of course, everyone marched somewhere at some point...)


How about both? And for Jackson Risilience. If his troops were fast in long marches, one can reasonably assume they were fast in tactical situations also, cant one?



Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 2:02:28 AM)

Sure.

By the way, generals have "slots" for up to five teachable abilities. I will only be giving the very best generals five. Jackson's among them, and I think it's fine to give him both of those.



General Quarters -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 3:50:13 AM)

Maybe generals that were really aggressive should teach Wild:

Early
Forrest
Sheridan
Van Dorn
AP Hill
Wheeler
Custer
Hood isn't on the list?



Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 4:14:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters

Maybe generals that were really aggressive should teach Wild:

Early
Forrest
Sheridan
Van Dorn
AP Hill
Wheeler
Custer
Hood isn't on the list?


Good suggestion.

Hood's there. Just look about twenty generals down and you'll see him.



General Quarters -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 4:37:10 AM)

Some of the better organizers should probably have traits like Disciplined, Steady, Obedient, Organized, maybe Independent, Steady Shooters, Sustained Volley.

The top organizers like McClellan, and maybe Grant and Lee, should have 5 such traits.

Meade, Hooker, Longstreet, Sherman, Bragg, Thomas 3 or 4.

Rosecrans and McPherson 2.




General Quarters -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 4:40:22 AM)

I don't know if there are any traits for this, but Grant and Lee were remarkable for making their armies functional units, inspiring cooperation among their subordinates and lack of ego and rivalry. McClellan was inspiring but almost created a cult of personality that made it very hard for the army to fight under any other general. That negative culture plagued the army until the coming of Grant. Bragg, of course, is notorious for not being able to get along and his army suffered as a result. If there is any trait that connects with this trait of Grant and Lee, then it might be given to a number of the generals who were able to create harmony of command in their units.



Alan_Bernardo -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 5:00:31 AM)

Longstreet: Diggers, Woodsman

Jeb Stuart: Fast, Wild, Flankers

The meanings of the special abilities can be found starting on page 228 of the manual.


Alanb




Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 5:28:53 AM)

Good point about Longstreet and "Woodsman." Who else from the Wilderness should get that?



Viewing -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 4:24:40 PM)

Thomas: Steady, Disciplined

No negative qualities passed along to the troops? Demoralized, disobedient, slow? Which would allow for such combinations as "wild, disobedient," or "disciplined, slow," etc.



will b -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 5:07:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viewing

Thomas: Steady, Disciplined

No negative qualities passed along to the troops? Demoralized, disobedient, slow? Which would allow for such combinations as "wild, disobedient," or "disciplined, slow," etc.


Yeah, I'd wondered about that too but I guess that's handled within the General's ratings.

Also what do the Abilities Organized and Bulldogs do? They aren't in the list on pp.228-229 in the manual.



freeboy -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 5:43:46 PM)

whats a buldog trait?



Erik Rutins -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 6:08:15 PM)

I believe Bulldogs allows you to ignore the penalties for being flanked.



Diggypiggy -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 7:10:25 PM)

I know this is a bit off topic and I hope everyone will excuse me but this seems as good a place as any to bring it up. When modelling some of the leaders it seems some "negative attributes" would be appropriate. I don't want to go in to any specifics I just thought maybe this should be considered for the future.



Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 9:02:23 PM)

Viewing,
It's definitely something we'll consider for the future. We've tried to reflect generals' poor performance in their ratings, but I can see how a few negative abilities might be interesting to have. (Ratings do do some of what you'd like to see: for example, while a general can't demoralize his troops, if his leadership rating is bad then he can't raise their morale.) We'll have to think about how they'd work in our system. One problem is that special abilities are permanent, so if a brigade is under a lousy general and picks up bad habits, it would retain those habits under a much better general. So the best thing might be what Diggypiggy is suggesting, and make them attributes of generals, meaning that they wouldn't be passed on to troops, but would affect generals' performances.

We also have some ideas for additional ratings for generals, and other ways of making generals much more multi-faceted, but I won't go into those other ideas just yet...

(We also have ideas for more special abilities, but again that's going to have to wait.)



Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 9:05:45 PM)

Strange that "Organized" and "Bulldogs" aren't in the manual. In the "Special.txt" datafile they're the last two special abilities, so maybe they just got skipped.

In that file, the description of Organized is:
Make formation checks as if unit's morale were +2.0

And Bulldogs is:
Enemies get no flanking damage in fire combat



Twotribes -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 9:06:23 PM)

I assume there is no method to make an attribute of a general only temperory ( only trainable in detailed battle temporarily)?



Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/27/2007 9:10:39 PM)

Not now. I think it could be done with a bit of programming, but might also require new graphics. Thus it's not something for this patch.



Viewing -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (1/28/2007 12:52:58 AM)

quote:

Viewing,
It's definitely something we'll consider for the future. We've tried to reflect generals' poor performance in their ratings, but I can see how a few negative abilities might be interesting to have. (Ratings do do some of what you'd like to see: for example, while a general can't demoralize his troops, if his leadership rating is bad then he can't raise their morale.) We'll have to think about how they'd work in our system. One problem is that special abilities are permanent, so if a brigade is under a lousy general and picks up bad habits, it would retain those habits under a much better general. So the best thing might be what Diggypiggy is suggesting, and make them attributes of generals, meaning that they wouldn't be passed on to troops, but would affect generals' performances.


I see your point. Otherwise, a brigade made by Little Mac would hardly turn into the kind that could work with Grant.

quote:

We also have some ideas for additional ratings for generals, and other ways of making generals much more multi-faceted, but I won't go into those other ideas just yet...


Now, that sounds intriguing. Guess I'll have to wait, too. :D

Another possible rating: speaking of Little Mac--

Little Mac: Disciplined (whatever else they may have become, he knew how to build disciplined troops!)



Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (2/4/2007 5:14:41 AM)

(Bump)



Hard Sarge -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (2/4/2007 11:18:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I assume there is no method to make an attribute of a general only temperory ( only trainable in detailed battle temporarily)?


Generals can give temp skills to there troops during battle (the HARD part is unless you know all of your troops inside and out, you may not notice when it happens)



Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (2/14/2007 5:19:55 AM)

I'm still open to suggestions... Still working on this for the patch...



Walloc -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (2/14/2007 7:39:27 PM)

Hi Gil,


This is an observation ofc based on pre patch and is purely my opinion based on my way of play. So its not an opinion based in history, but more an gaming issue as i see it.

IMO the ability, Heroes is by far the most valueble ability in detailed battles.
If u have a 5 unit division and have 1 unit in the division with Heroes. Place that in the middle and have 2 units on each side all units in that division is covered by the ability. U can extend that with more division with same setup having 1 long battleline covered by have 1 heroes unit in each division.
The force multiplier by having all ur units covered by Heroes is IMO decisive. The continued build up of lost moral enables you to enter firefights and if managed well(remove units from the battle line if necesary), rarely having units break. Only if u have very low start moral units, taking a 1 time high casulty attack and as said if u manage ur battleline, do ur units break. Well having an army where u units dont break and the enemies does makes for alot of wins ;-)

This for me was one way of overcomming AI units in trenches, early in the war with fairly ease. Playing both the AI battles and vs humans on LAN, i cant remember losing battles using this tactic. Less opposed by same. Humans tend to learn ;-).

Well this leads to my observation. As it stands now the CSA Having 2 leaders thats from start is most certainly going to used in large commands enabling them to teach lots of units with the ability. 2ndly they both have high
leadership ratings making teaching the abilty "easy". This leads to the CSA having in a year or 2, many to most their units having this ability. This in combination with high moral, staff rating and generals makes their armies invincible. But even playing as USA using the tactic is a battle winner making me see it as the single most decisive factor.

As US side u have problems with gaining this ability for ur units, making for an IMO decisive inbalance. U have few generals with this ability and they are low % so in many games u dont get them.  2ndly they dont have high leadership so even in the games u do have them and making them army commanders, for 35 unit "training" armies, only 1 2 units gets the ability in 3 years time. Assuming u can spare units for training armies which might be hard pressed. The generals with the ablity for the US isnt exactly combat command materiel. 

The only way really to get them as US is through LU and indeed a few US units have it. More importandly tho seems Freedmen. In some games and this is very erratic, u never get any freedmen with heroes only sustained fire, but in others u get around 50% 50% heroes and sustained fire. This makes it like a coin toss where or not u are able to utilize this strategy as US.

My main concern is for play vs Human. I dont seem to have that many probs with overcomming the AI in other ways as US vs CSA AI.

I know the patch will include so many upgrades and changing of how the game balance works that i cant say how the tactic will work post patch.
Tho as it stands now i see it as a major advantage/inbalancer for the CSA if detailed battles are played and the tactic used.

So it might be for purely gaming reason be an issue to look into, giving US more useble/appearing generals with the abilty or limiting the CSA's side in that regard. Or other wise looking at the ability.


Kind regards,

Rasmus



Gil R. -> RE: Generals' Teachable Special Abilities (2/15/2007 12:16:01 AM)

I'm glad you mentioned this issue, since while assigning teachable abilities to generals recently I've been thinking about it, and came up with an idea that I hope we can implement for a patch or the next one.

One of the changes in this patch is that units now can earn special abilities through combat. What this means is that we could designate certain abilities (Heroes and Dreaded in particular, but perhaps Shooters and 2-3 others) as only being available to units in this manner. Generals would no longer get to teach those abilities, which would prevent a guy like Lee (or whoever has it) from teaching it to numerous units. Legendary Units would still have such abilities from the start, which would be fine, but they'd be harder to come by and more valuable. I'm curious what you and others think of this idea.

I don't know whether we'll have time to put it in this upcoming patch, since we don't want to delay its release any further, but I think it could be done sometime in the not too distant future if people supported the idea.



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