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- 9/6/2000 3:51:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		As I said on another thread - the difference between "hostile" and "critical" is often in the eyes of the beholder, and the fact is that whether Claus meant to be either or neither, Wild Bill has been the target of individuals that have publically "declared war" on him, making him quick on the trigger finger. That we support him when the perception is that a new "attack" is underway, well we offer no apologies for Team Spirit. Its a shame that tempers have to flare over taking issue with the words someone uses to describe a new featue - but the fact we let such exchanges stand for all to evaluate themselves should demonstrate our commitment to equal doses of good and bad. The thousands and thousands of other posts where criticism is not only tolerated, but in many cases acted upon and incorporated into the game will stand against the few times our collective hackles might get raised... We will only delete posts that we consider excessively profane, or, as in the case of a "spam attack" on the Salute to the Kursk thread, deliberately disruptive. The "initial escalation" between Claus and Figmo did not involve any "Matrix employees" and Wild Bill only became involved after Claus claimed he "screwed up" and made some hardly "unemotional" remarks about folk's "insecurities"... From the exchange between Claus and Figmo, it seems hard to get anything out of the exchange, but that Claus thought he "caught someone in a fib" and wanted to play like Mike Wallace...hardly the height of constructive criticism... As to the Feature itself, the final incarnation allows a truely NEW capability to the SP system, as anybody who wanted to use a custom map with custom start lines and custom victory hexes and was unable to do so will attest. So now you can create a custom map, arrange the start lines and the victory hexes (including all the new types) and save it for posterity, and it will not be overridden by the "default" V hex arrangement. For fans of battle generator games that want to use historical or hand made maps (including start lines and V-hexes) - that was not possible before. If the full capability of the feature was not fully communicated to Wild Bill - that was certainly not his fault!! The whole thing seems to have been avoidable had there not been an "assumption of guilt" going in and the questionaing been along the lines of finding out more about the feature, than prosecuting the "guilty". Not a thread for anybody to be real proud of, but hopefully we can all learn from it... [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited September 05, 2000).]

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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 61
- 9/6/2000 4:35:00 AM   
sami heimola

 

Posts: 425
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: kouvola finland
Status: offline 		Very well said, Paul! Hopefully anyone who is going to write same style as Claus will consider it twice after reading your message. As you said, difference between "good" and "bad" criticism is thin. I must admire your and others support when Claus "attacked" against Wild Bill. It's a mark of good Team Spirit of Matrix's staff. BTW, will V.4 to be released tomorrow or later? Thanks in advance Sami
quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: As I said on another thread - the difference between "hostile" and "critical" is often in the eyes of the beholder, and the fact is that whether Claus meant to be either or neither, Wild Bill has been the target of individuals that have publically "declared war" on him, making him quick on the trigger finger. That we support him when the perception is that a new "attack" is underway, well we offer no apologies for Team Spirit. Its a shame that tempers have to flare over taking issue with the words someone uses to describe a new featue - but the fact we let such exchanges stand for all to evaluate themselves should demonstrate our commitment to equal doses of good and bad. The thousands and thousands of other posts where criticism is not only tolerated, but in many cases acted upon and incorporated into the game will stand against the few times our collective hackles might get raised... We will only delete posts that we consider excessively profane, or, as in the case of a "spam attack" on the Salute to the Kursk thread, deliberately disruptive. The "initial escalation" between Claus and Figmo did not involve any "Matrix employees" and Wild Bill only became involved after Claus claimed he "screwed up" and made some hardly "unemotional" remarks about folk's "insecurities"... From the exchange between Claus and Figmo, it seems hard to get anything out of the exchange, but that Claus thought he "caught someone in a fib" and wanted to play like Mike Wallace...hardly the height of constructive criticism... As to the Feature itself, the final incarnation allows a truely NEW capability to the SP system, as anybody who wanted to use a custom map with custom start lines and custom victory hexes and was unable to do so will attest. So now you can create a custom map, arrange the start lines and the victory hexes (including all the new types) and save it for posterity, and it will not be overridden by the "default" V hex arrangement. For fans of battle generator games that want to use historical or hand made maps (including start lines and V-hexes) - that was not possible before. If the full capability of the feature was not fully communicated to Wild Bill - that was certainly not his fault!! The whole thing seems to have been avoidable had there not been an "assumption of guilt" going in and the questionaing been along the lines of finding out more about the feature, than prosecuting the "guilty". Not a thread for anybody to be real proud of, but hopefully we can all learn from it... [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited September 05, 2000).]


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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 62
- 9/6/2000 6:28:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		That was a big post. I have a feeling what I asked about boulder hexes might get lost after something like that. (I'm on this forum too damn much. Look at the times I hit this place... pathetic.) What are the los and movement issues with the boulder hexes in the 4.0 version?? And what degree of cover do they offer to infantry? Tomo

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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 63
- 9/6/2000 8:17:00 AM   
Graf Speer

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 7/23/2000
Status: offline 		I don't have a ready answer, Tomo, but way to stand your ground given the threadus interruptus 'interludes' - your determination to get an answer to those boulder hexes would make even Admiral Farragut proud ("damn the torpoedos . . . and "For God's sake get out of our way and anchor," - there's still a real war to be fought and won! Albert

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The Good Nazi

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 64
- 9/6/2000 8:34:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		OK OK - I found the Boulder info... But be fair now - that really should have gone on a thread of its own... Rocks and Boulders have the height of the "base" terrain. So they don't block LOS all by themselves, but are intended to be "overlaid" on level 1 hills (or higher) Cliffs are impassible to all but "special forces" infantry. Rocks are passible to tracked vehicles (12MPs though) and Boulders are prohibited to vehicles - but infantry treat rocks and boulders as rough. We added stacking limits to bridges too, so based on the type of bridges, wrecks can block them... [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited September 05, 2000).]

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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 65
- 9/6/2000 10:04:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Sorry, it was just an extentsion of the map thingie... Since they dont do too much (and I mean too much) new stuff it sounds like those boulder and rock hexes'll add an awesome dimension of visual variance to the maps. I was getting tired of making 'pretty' patterns out of rough and high grass hexes... It'll be nice to have an expanded palette.

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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 66
- 9/6/2000 10:44:00 AM   
Bonzo

 

Posts: 676
Joined: 9/3/2000
From: Peace River, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		I think that all these new terrain features are just way too cool. The pictures on Fabio's and Tankhead's sites are GREAT. If I don't get V4 soon, I may have to steal Tankhead's computer one night I'll shut up now, ... so cool....mutter, mutter... Bonzo ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com nwbattalion@icqmail.com

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Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Webmaster 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters Main http://www.nwbattalion.com E-mail

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 67
- 9/6/2000 10:48:00 PM   
cb

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 5/6/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by David Heath: Claus your statement is just untrue and an attack! Its actions like this that cause us to quit SPWW2. Anyone can is welcomed to comment or dislike anything on this forum or SPWaW. The problem Claus is that its the same idea of having a SSI staff member go over to the Talonsoft message board and leave messages blasting one of it games. We have do very well with supporting SPWaW and the gamers who play our games. SPWaW has done 57,000+ downloads and SPWW2 less then a 1,000. This does not mean SPWW2 is bad game but I can see the staff of the game getting a little short temper with us. We take this type of attack by Claus very personally and will not stand for someone bending the truth.
David, Your post just shows that you cannot see the real issues (the fact tha WBW overstated his case, a fact that has been recognized by Paul Vebber in a previous post) because that issue was adressed by someone associated with a group that you apparently hate. Your post is just another proof, that "unemotional" discussion between Matrix and someone associated with "the other game" is impossible, just as I said previously. That fact is that my initial post pointed out a few factual mistakes in WBWs post. That in turn had Figmo and Wild Bill going bananas. Instead of simply recognizing the fact that WBW was overenthusiastic, you immidiatly assume that because I have playtested for "the other game", then my intents must be evil and malignant. As for "bending the truth" I suggest you actually READ my initial post. Find ONE - ONE factual mistake or ONE, just ONE attempt to "bend the truth" in that post. If you cant, I suggest you retract that remark - that is, if you are man enough to admit when you are wrong. Claus B

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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 68
- 9/7/2000 12:21:00 AM   
WW2'er

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 4/20/2000
From: East Dundee, IL, USA
Status: offline 		Claus, You know what? You're a jerk. And there is not one error or even a little bit of "bending the truth" in that statement. No real emotion either. Just a simple statement of fact after reading this whole thread. And it must be true because I have nothing to do with Matrix Games so I'm not biased against you!

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WW2'er

"That [state] which separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." — Thucydides, 'The Peloponnesian Wars'

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 69
- 9/7/2000 12:34:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		Bill did not have all the info he should have when he posted. That was a coordination problem for the Team and not Wild Bill's problem. One that was clarified. Now David is commenting on your most recent post as "untrue" and you refer back to the inital post If the "revolutionary feature" had been correctly described as the ability to not just use custom maps, but save start lines and victory objectives (which no SP game allows you to do, does it!!) would you be up on your high horse? Had Bill posted the complete info, then this would not have been an issue, would it? What possible point to this argument is there except the continued "counting coup" on Wild Bill and now David Heath? Your arguing in circles in a desperate attempt cast Matrix staff and fans (I'm not sure why you think Figmo is a Matrix staffer?) in a bad light is so transparant as to be laughable! A new low for a thread I didn't think could go any lower...

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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 70
- 9/7/2000 12:48:00 AM   
Dave R

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 10/7/2001
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by WW2'er: Claus, You know what? You're a jerk. And there is not one error or even a little bit of "bending the truth" in that statement. No real emotion either. Just a simple statement of fact after reading this whole thread. And it must be true because I have nothing to do with Matrix Games so I'm not biased against you!
Ditto WW2'er my sentiments exactly! I usually make a point of never getting involved in any online argument, but on this occasion I will. At worst Bill is guilty of being a little 'overexcited' about a new feature, and don't you ever change that Bill! One thing that I'll say about the whole Matrix crew, is that they have never, to my knowledge, said anything bad about SPWW2 or the crew that worked on it. They've acknowledged that there was differences, but never started any cat calling. claus. On personal level, if you can't say anything good about people then don't say it in public at least be man enought to enter in to a closed debate with who ever you are mad about and don't try spreading muck in public. Oh and I too have nothing to do with Matrix, though I do have a hell of a lot of respect for them as hard working people who have given us a damned good product at great expence to themselves in both time and money!

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In times of war we see the worst that man has to offer. But we also see the best that man has to offer.

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 71
- 9/7/2000 1:09:00 AM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Dammit. Everyone's so pissed off. I dont think its fair to actually call Claus a jerk... but he's certainly caused an unnecessary disruption in this thread. Its getting to the point where Claus does not deserve replies. He's repetitively arguing trivial issues with a tone not unlike a temper tantrum. Its killing my attempts at an excited discussion about these custom maps. I'm sorry that I haven't started a thread up somewhere else about the topic, I just didn't think about it. Tomo

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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 72
- 9/7/2000 1:52:00 AM   
Mac_MatrixForum


Posts: 295
Joined: 4/11/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		Just a couple notes... call it my .02 euros. cb, your first post wasn't offending but look at your second and subsequent posts, a little impolite, I would say. You start picking Matrix Games because of a little mistake WB made? Come on, a topic like this shouldn't generate this many posts. Tiger armour thickness is important to the game, this is not. Time to forget this thread? I think so. Time to start drooling for V4? I think so . Peace. ------------------ Markku "Mac" Rontu "Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Sheridan in B5

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Markku "Macroz" Rontu
"Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Captain John J. Sheridan, Babylon 5

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 73
- 9/7/2000 5:29:00 PM   
crazyivan

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		CB this is a post or should i say forum its soul aim is to talk about and share any and all good bad and yes the sometimes ugly things that make this game SPWAW what it is today andsharing such views and opionons will iron out the ugly increase the good and improve upon the bad.matrix doesen't have to listen let alone responed to our pleas to better there game but in imbracing our wants etc they have turned this game into the best of the best.so let us remember what this whole forum is about its not on our ideas to improve others or to point the finger but to improve the GAME what good does it do any one if at the end of the day you go home with a moral victory over another but your t-34 still crashes the game to the desktop when firing its mian gun.

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"The best form of defence,is attack"

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 74
- 9/7/2000 6:07:00 PM   
cb

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 5/6/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Dave R: claus. On personal level, if you can't say anything good about people then don't say it in public at least be man enought to enter in to a closed debate with who ever you are mad about and don't try spreading muck in public.
OK, a few people needs to get their facts straight. 1. The issue here is that WBW claimed that Matrix had introduced a "revolutionary new feature" in SPW@W that was not, in fact, new but something that had been around since 1995 or thereabouts. That stands. No one have refuted that. 2. Because this irrefutable fact was stated by someone (yours truly) who has playtested for another group of game designers, Matrix and associates tries to evade the issue by turning the thread into a campaign of slander against that other group. 3. I am not speaking on behalf of SPCamo (SPWW2), never had, never will. But the blind hatred of Matrix and associates against this group makes them jump to the conclusion that this is an evil attempt by "the other group" to attack Matrix and their products. It never was, but Matrix and associates simply cannot get over the fact that someone who has even the remotest association "from the other group" dares comment on on a PR blunder on their behalf. Now, Paul Vebber is still not quite getting the picture when he writes: Bill did not have all the info he should have when he posted. That was a coordination problem for the Team and not Wild Bill's problem. One that was clarified. Now David is commenting on your most recent post as "untrue" and you refer back to the inital post If the "revolutionary feature" had been correctly described as the ability to not just use custom maps, but save start lines and victory objectives (which no SP game allows you to do, does it!!) would you be up on your high horse? Had Bill posted the complete info, then this would not have been an issue, would it? The problem is not and have never been about victory objectives, separate directories etc. It has always been, despite Matrix feeble attempts so evade the issue, that WBW stated that the ability to have custom maps in generated battles were something new. It wasn't then and it isn't now. If Matrix and associates had adressed that issue by simply admitting that WBWs claims were in fact untrue, we would not have this discussion. But Matrix and associates could not get over the fact that this was pointed out by someone who has tested "for the other group" and decided to turn this into an SPCamo vs Matrix pissing contest. Now, Paul complains that I stick with the original issue instead of adressing the SPCamo vs Matrix fictional conflict that are only in the minds of Matrix. Sorry Paul, but this is not and have never been about SPW@W vs SPWW2 or Matrix vs SPCamo. That conflict is and remains something that is going on in your imagination. These are the facts whether you like them or not. You can refute them and riducule but that does not change anything. Claus B PS: Sorry that I associated Figmo with Matrix. At least that is one liability you do not have to suffer.

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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 75
- 9/7/2000 6:24:00 PM   
crazyivan

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		CB READ MY POST THIS IS NOT A HE DID THIS I DID THAT MY DAD"S BIGGER THAN YOUR DAD THING IT'S A GAME FORUM FOR SPWAW THAT MY FRIEND IS FACT CAN YOU DISPUTE THAT!!!!!!!!

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"The best form of defence,is attack"

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 76
- 9/7/2000 7:06:00 PM   
waynef

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 8/25/2000
From: plano, tx,usa
Status: offline 		CB and all... I believe WB misspoke, I believe WB addressed this issue. Revolutionary or not the issue is dead. Lets ALL move on shall we? I would ask the moderator to close this thread as it is a waste of everyone's time.

_____________________________

"At My Signal...Unleash Hell" Thanks, Wayne

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 77
- 9/7/2000 7:07:00 PM   
cb

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 5/6/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by crazyivan: CB READ MY POST THIS IS NOT A HE DID THIS I DID THAT MY DAD"S BIGGER THAN YOUR DAD THING IT'S A GAME FORUM FOR SPWAW THAT MY FRIEND IS FACT CAN YOU DISPUTE THAT!!!!!!!!
I know crazyivan, I know. But you need to tell this to the Matrix people as they are the ones turning this into a dick-measuring contest. Btw, I have said what I have to say. As it is evident that Matrix cannot get over the fact that I've tested for "those of the other group" and are too yellowbellied to admit when they or one of their associates have made a mistake, I rest my case. I may be back, however, the next time they start claiming that original SP features are their own inventions. Maybe that wont happen, as WBW may now have learned to think before he posts. One can always hope. Claus B

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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 78
- 9/7/2000 7:07:00 PM   
waynef

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 8/25/2000
From: plano, tx,usa
Status: offline 		CB and all... I believe WB misspoke, I believe WB addressed this issue. Revolutionary or not the issue is dead. Lets ALL move on shall we? I would ask the moderator to close this thread as it is a waste of everyone's time.

_____________________________

"At My Signal...Unleash Hell" Thanks, Wayne

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 79
- 9/7/2000 7:10:00 PM   
waynef

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 8/25/2000
From: plano, tx,usa
Status: offline 		CB and All... I believe WB may have misspoke, I believe WB addressed this issue. Revolutionary or not, move on. I would ask the moderator to close this thread as it is a waste of everyones time.

_____________________________

"At My Signal...Unleash Hell" Thanks, Wayne

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 80
- 9/7/2000 7:45:00 PM   
Hans

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 6/29/2000
From: Hamburg, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by waynef: ... I would ask the moderator to close this thread as it is a waste of everyones time.
Thrice said and true. Hans

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dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 81
- 9/7/2000 7:56:00 PM   
BobD

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 9/4/2000
From: Kent, UK
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by cb: 1. The issue here is that WBW claimed that Matrix had introduced a "revolutionary new feature" in SPW@W that was not, in fact, new but something that had been around since 1995 or thereabouts. That stands. No one have refuted that. -------- So what? -------- I first heard about MatrixGames and SPw@w on Monday, and of SPWW2 when I started reading this thread, so I have absolutely no knowledge of the history of these games or their developers and no bias. I have never even played any version of SP (but will when v4 appears as it looks excellent!) This thread is just plain silly. The "point" being made is totally irrelevant. CB, to be honest your continually repeating the same points is being just as emotional, aggressive and negative towards the "other" team as you claim the others are being. Come on fellas, nobody did anything WRONG so why not just let it go... ...and it seems a bit harsh to say that Matrix can't take negative feedback when I see all the work that been put into developing and constantly enhancing SPW@W. That must have been due to "negative" but "constructive" comments. It seems a shame to me if two development groups who are presumably both working hard to build better games for the benefit of the gaming community are bickering. Since SPW@W (and SPww2?) is/are free downloads (which I find astonishing considering the amount of work that has gone into them) they are not strictly in financial competition so there is no need; is there? Not that it occurs just on this site. I have spent most of my time on the PanzerElite site and, sadly, there are similar pointless rows going on there. Everyone ultimately has the same interests and has better things to do... so chill out! Best regards to all, and keep up the good work Bob

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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 82
- 9/7/2000 9:18:00 PM   
Fabs

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 6/5/2000
From: London, U.K.
Status: offline 		I have just spent half an hour reading through this improductive drivel. I use the forum to be informed about developments in the game, general information about what is coming and ideas to play better. I read as much of its contents as i can, because SPWAW is important to me. I also enjoy the occasional historical debate. This is the first time that as a forum user I have felt that another user has clearly been abusing the forum and wasting mine and everybody's time. My sympathies to Wild Bill and the moderators who have been extremely civilized about all this, but I do feel that someone who wastes everybody else's time as much as cb has done without adding anything to anyone should by now be barred from ever posting again. I too have no affiliation with Matrix. The download figures are surprising, but speak for themselves. The only edge SPWW2v3 has on SPWAW is the extra elevation levels. Having said this, I am one of those people who dowloaded SPWW2 (the extra elevation being the main attraction). Since then I have picked it up and played it a fraction of the times that I have played SPWAW. I am working on three separate new scenarios for SPWAW, with mental notes on starting at least another four. I have no plans to design scenarios for SPWW2v3, despite the attraction of the extra elevation levels. I am rooting for the chance that SPWAW develop extra elevation levels (two or three will do, guys, no need to go to fifteen). Why? Because SPWAW is so much better in every other way! SPWW"v3's biggest weakness, IMO, is that it was not moved onto the Windows platform. Then come the graphics, that are simply outclassed. Incidentally, I don't know about anybody else, but my attempts to find, let alone join their forum have always met with failure. I gave up some weeks ago. Do they have one, and does it work as well as this one? ------------------ Fabs

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Fabs

(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 83
- 9/7/2000 10:43:00 PM   
David Heath


Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline 		Hi Everyone What gets under our skin is the name calling and off comments Claus can not just control himself. We do not like to close or delete anything on this forum unless we really must. No matter how much we feel Claus is wasting all of our time kept the clean. I will lock the forum but leave it online. David

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(in reply to Wild Bill)
Post #: 84
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