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How best to learn this game? - 4/1/2007 6:32:37 AM   
Wolfpack_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/1/2004
From: Raleigh,NC
Status: offline 		Recently purchased TOAW and am having trouble grasping the complexities of the game. How does one best learn the game?

For example I am trying Sicily to Brenner Pass 43-45. During the first couple turns I would expect the Germans to push hard for Gela but even the Italians are kicking my butt in places. Units either dug in or entrenched are getting defeated by units with lower attack and defense ratings.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Wolfpack

Post #: 1
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/1/2007 7:24:22 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for the purchase. I would suggest the following:

Read the manual. Don't worry if you don't absorb it all the first couple of readings.
Read the articles available on the net. See the Ancient Historical Documents thread for some links. Likewise, some of it will be just gibberish, at first.
Play the Tutorials while reading the articles therein.
Play the game.
Play the game.
Play the game.
Then, after you're moving in the right direction along the learning curve, play the game with another live human player. Try to find one that will be helpful and offer advice. Stick with short scenarios, until you have the hang of things.
Most of all, remember it's a game and you're supposed to have FUN so even if things aren't going well, enjoy the challenge and ass-kicking. After you've learned the game, you'll have plenty of opportunity to return the favor.

(in reply to Wolfpack_MatrixForum)
Post #: 2
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/1/2007 2:19:54 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		This is good advice. I would also add that it is well worth looking at the editor. You can learn a great deal from building small and rough scenarios to examine certain aspects of how troops behave.

You know, TOAW 3 could really do with an academy along similar lines to the SPWAW Depot Academy. Not everyone comes to TOAW with a backgound in wargames.

Much of the available internet notes on TOAW stem from older versions and while they are not wholly inaccurate they are not wholly accurate with respect to TOAW 3 either.

The tutorials included with the game are quite good but the scenarios tend to be too extensive. For example, the Korean tutorial takes you through the basics of the game mechanics but then leaves the beginner hanging just when the fun is about to start with "... and now its up you." Most beginners, if I am anything to go by, end up staring at the screen and thinking "oh, bugger..."

A TOAW 3 academy put together and run by a group of experienced players producing small, tightly controlled scenarios and introducing beginners to "how to use infantry, how to use armour, how to use artillery, how to fight a war (how to make sense of turn burning) etc" would be a great learning tool for beginners and intermediate to advanced players alike. It becomes especially valuable when coupled with a forum where beginners can ask for help to understand some part of the academy material.

Best wishes,


_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 3
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/1/2007 2:37:04 PM   
m5000.2006


Posts: 168
Joined: 11/10/2006
Status: offline 		i'd also suggest not starting your general's career from so called 'classic toaw'* scenarios as some of them are rather badly designed and playing them can give you a lot of frustration right at the beginning, which may put you off toaw



* these are old scenarios that came out with first versions of the game back in the 90s

_____________________________

"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.
"I don't much care where –" said Alice.
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat.
LC

(in reply to Wolfpack_MatrixForum)
Post #: 4
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/1/2007 6:04:16 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		Most scenarios are worth tinkering with to get them exactly how you like them. I can't think of one scenario that couldn't do with some alteration. However, everyone has different ideas about what constitutes a good scenario. Is it historical accuracy or balance of play? Or a bit of both?

Tinkering with the scenarios is a very good way to learn TOAW.

Best wishes,


_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to m5000.2006)
Post #: 5
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/1/2007 6:48:26 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		May I suggest reading AAR's?  In particular this one:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1335787

in which I go through the motions of moving units one at a time and WHY I moved there.  I did it specifically to help the beginners to pick up little tips and tricks of movement and tactics.  I'm not an expert but it's better than nothing.  It's also better than watching the AI moving units around.

Some of the AAR's are better than others for the tactical / strategic tips you might pick up but most of them are good ways to learn some of the ways players nowadays are playing.

Just a thought.

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 6
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/1/2007 10:43:04 PM   
m5000.2006


Posts: 168
Joined: 11/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick

Most scenarios are worth tinkering with to get them exactly how you like them. I can't think of one scenario that couldn't do with some alteration. However, everyone has different ideas about what constitutes a good scenario. Is it historical accuracy or balance of play? Or a bit of both?

Tinkering with the scenarios is a very good way to learn TOAW.

Best wishes,



what i meant is that there's a well-known problem with some of the old classic scens that has to do with supply, there's simply too little...

classic barbarossa 41 is a good example, it's designed in such a way that your units get very little supply off railways, i remember playing it back in the 90s, it was one of my first scenarios, i tried to surround soviet units near Bialystok, i soon ran out of supply, and my units all went red, imagine that - german forces out of supply during the firt turns of the operation...
i was unable to counduct a single offensive in the open terrain because of the problem with the supply, i remember it was very frustrating and i thought that toaw sucked and it put me off playing it for weeks

in toaw 3 there is this new option - 'high supply' which seems to have been introduced for this very problem, although it does help, it's not adjusted to a particular scenario, and is rather an artificial, general and global solution for all of them...


_____________________________

"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.
"I don't much care where –" said Alice.
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat.
LC

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 7
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/2/2007 1:57:32 AM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		I agree that something like that is off-putting for beginners and it shouldn't be like that.

This is where learning the editor and a little bit of tinkering pays off. Adjusting the supply level in the editor is trivial once you begin to get aquainted with the editor. You can learn a lot from loading scenarios into the editor to see how they were put together and what happens when you start altering things. Best of all, you can't break anything.

TOAW is not easy for beginners and we need all the help we can get.

Best wishes,


< Message edited by shunwick -- 4/2/2007 2:09:39 AM >

_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to m5000.2006)
Post #: 8
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/3/2007 1:43:24 PM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick

Not everyone comes to TOAW with a backgound in wargames.

Best wishes,



..they don't ?..




_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 9
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/3/2007 5:56:58 PM   
Major SNAFU_M


Posts: 583
Joined: 11/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit


quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick

Not everyone comes to TOAW with a backgound in wargames.

Best wishes,



..they don't ?..






Well. If they're married they have at least been through boot camp

(I am totally kidding here. My wife allows me to indulge myself in wargames of every kind and has even tried some.)


Seriously. Play game after game after game. Don't be afraid to try stuff - don't be afraid to make a wrong move. Just play and learn (both the good and the bad).

It is really like chess (again) in this way. You have to just keep playing and not get discouraged.

And read and re-read the manual and all of the 'white papers' you can on how the mechanics work.

< Message edited by Major SNAFU -- 4/3/2007 6:00:16 PM >

_____________________________

"Popular Opinion? What I suggest you do with 'Popular Opinion' is biologically impossible and morally questionable." -

"One ping to find them all,
One ping to link them;
One ping to promote them all,
and in the darkness sink them"

(in reply to a white rabbit)
Post #: 10
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/3/2007 5:57:08 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick
You know, TOAW 3 could really do with an academy along similar lines to the SPWAW Depot Academy. Not everyone comes to TOAW with a backgound in wargames.

A TOAW 3 academy put together and run by a group of experienced players producing small, tightly controlled scenarios and introducing beginners to "how to use infantry, how to use armour, how to use artillery, how to fight a war (how to make sense of turn burning) etc" would be a great learning tool for beginners and intermediate to advanced players alike. It becomes especially valuable when coupled with a forum where beginners can ask for help to understand some part of the academy material.


Sort of like this site:

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/toaw-iii-new-player-workshop/

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 11
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/3/2007 10:11:21 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		Yes, that was a very worthy attempt. But if I undersand correctly, it was a one off event that ended nearly a year ago. It was finished before I even bought my copy of TOAW III.

Best wishes,


_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 12
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/3/2007 10:26:47 PM   
Veers


Posts: 1324
Joined: 6/6/2006
Status: offline 		Well, if we have enough interest over there, we'll start 'er up again.
It started about July '06 and ended in late fall of '06.

< Message edited by Veers -- 4/3/2007 10:28:22 PM >

_____________________________

To repeat history in a game is to be predictable.
If you wish to learn more about EA, feel free to pop over to the EA forums Europe Aflame Forums.

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 13
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/3/2007 10:50:03 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		Veers,

That's the only problem with the workshop as it exists / did exist. What new players need is a constantly available source of learning.

Small, short but challenging scenarios with clear objectives and an accompanying tutorial that can be played over and over again. Each scenario should focus on a single issue and with each scenario building on the previous one.

The scenarios don't have to be extensively researched historical battles. Blue v Red on a fictional battlefield that can be tailored exactly to the designer's need are perfect. How to use your infantry, the value of keeping a reserve, infantry in the open, infantry in urban locations, infantry in jungles. what happens when infantry meets armour, how to maximize the use of your artillery, the value of flank attacks, how to plan your campaign etc. And let's not forget - what those damn stars mean and what you need to do to avoid burning your turn on expensive attacks.

Run a continual workshop on top of these and you have a class act.

Best wishes,


_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to Veers)
Post #: 14
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/3/2007 11:08:25 PM   
Veers


Posts: 1324
Joined: 6/6/2006
Status: offline 		Well, ithe idea has been tossed up over there about having a continual workshop, what we need is for someone, with the time, to take up the rheins and set 'er up. There'll likely be lots of assistance form the community over there, but it needs someone to kick start it and give direction to the effort.

_____________________________

To repeat history in a game is to be predictable.
If you wish to learn more about EA, feel free to pop over to the EA forums Europe Aflame Forums.

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 15
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/4/2007 12:14:01 AM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		Perhaps this thread will offer encouragement.

Best wishes,


_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to Veers)
Post #: 16
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/4/2007 4:04:04 AM   
Zort

 

Posts: 684
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Status: offline 		I would recommend reading thru Larry's beginners guide that goes move by move in the monster FITE game. Monster yes but you get to see how just about everything works.

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 17
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/4/2007 12:21:39 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		I agree, Larry's AAR is very good reading.

But of all the scenarios he could have chosen, he just had to choose FITE. The same treatment but with a more manageable scenario that could have been taken through to the very end would have been truly awesome. I suspect that it would have generated more discussion as well.

I am loathe to criticize Larry's work on that thread because he put a great deal of work into it and it was excellent. I wish I could produce a work of that quality.

Best wishes,


_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to Zort)
Post #: 18
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/4/2007 5:19:42 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick
But of all the scenarios he could have chosen, he just had to choose FITE. The same treatment but with a more manageable scenario that could have been taken through to the very end would have been truly awesome. I suspect that it would have generated more discussion as well.


Perhaps I should attempt a different scenario. Maybe Normandy '44...it's only got 200 turns.

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 19
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/4/2007 10:33:58 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		Larry,

That's heading in the right direction.

Seriously, I hope my comments haven't upset you since that was not my intention.

Best wishes,


_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 20
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/4/2007 11:27:11 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick
Seriously, I hope my comments haven't upset you since that was not my intention.


No, not at all. And you're not the only one who has commented on FITE being perhaps not the ideal scenario to demonstrate with. Rhinobones himself thought I was out of my mind I bet. But I like FITE and I needed the practice with it since I've played it about 6 times now and have yet to win at it. LOL.

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 21
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/5/2007 2:53:58 AM   
Wolfpack_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/1/2004
From: Raleigh,NC
Status: offline 		Thanks everyone for the responses and discussion.

So far I have found the red vs grey tutorial to be the most enlightning. Once I worked through that one the others I have tried are less mysterious.


(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 22
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/5/2007 3:51:43 AM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick

Veers,

That's the only problem with the workshop as it exists / did exist. What new players need is a constantly available source of learning.

Small, short but challenging scenarios with clear objectives and an accompanying tutorial that can be played over and over again. Each scenario should focus on a single issue and with each scenario building on the previous one.

The scenarios don't have to be extensively researched historical battles. Blue v Red on a fictional battlefield that can be tailored exactly to the designer's need are perfect. How to use your infantry, the value of keeping a reserve, infantry in the open, infantry in urban locations, infantry in jungles. what happens when infantry meets armour, how to maximize the use of your artillery, the value of flank attacks, how to plan your campaign etc. And let's not forget - what those damn stars mean and what you need to do to avoid burning your turn on expensive attacks.

Run a continual workshop on top of these and you have a class act.

Best wishes,



Some scenarios that ship with the game focus on some aspects, i.e. Road to Rimini, a superior attacker under a strict time table versus an outnumbered defender. Very good to "hone offensive and defensive skills" to quote my former opponent in this one. Was my first PBEM btw. (got away with a draw as the germans). Kasserine 43 is a good tutorial, too.

Principally it's agood idea and as Veers said it needs someone to kickstart, a veteran long time player.

_____________________________

http://thetoawbeachhead.wordpress.com

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 23
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/7/2007 3:19:02 PM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Major SNAFU

quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit


quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick

Not everyone comes to TOAW with a backgound in wargames.

Best wishes,



..they don't ?..






Well. If they're married they have at least been through boot camp

(I am totally kidding here. My wife allows me to indulge myself in wargames of every kind and has even tried some.)


Seriously. Play game after game after game. Don't be afraid to try stuff - don't be afraid to make a wrong move. Just play and learn (both the good and the bad).

It is really like chess (again) in this way. You have to just keep playing and not get discouraged.

And read and re-read the manual and all of the 'white papers' you can on how the mechanics work.


..kk, true..

..so play a couple of scens vs Elmer, try a couple vs the fair lady, by sort-of email, so you can help if need be, and she has no pressure if she don't want it, play some vs the experts around here*..

..s'ok, they'l wipe you, but if they're really good they'll tell you how and why..

..i'd like to help but i can't guarentee a return time, gotta personal war in real time to run, but if mostly twice a week is cool ?..


_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to Major SNAFU_M)
Post #: 24
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/7/2007 4:54:40 PM   
Wolfpack_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/1/2004
From: Raleigh,NC
Status: offline 		Twice a week is fine by me. PM sent. Let me know if you are still interested in schooling a Noob!


(in reply to a white rabbit)
Post #: 25
RE: How best to learn this game? - 4/7/2007 7:34:10 PM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfpack

Twice a week is fine by me. PM sent. Let me know if you are still interested in schooling a Noob!




..PM's received..if you can take the irregular replies, s'cool by me, we all gotta learn somewhere*...

..*there was i, 12, WRG1(first edition) and a tat of (well-painted, err moderately anyway) tribesman in hand, and i actually got to play..with the Man..and i actually made such a pain of myself that he had to send Legions into the hills to supress us..i was sooo proud*..

..*he won the battle, against the rest of the world but my little bit...mmm....with a few more hillsmen, i still reckon i could've taken that flank..


< Message edited by a white rabbit -- 4/7/2007 7:36:53 PM >

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to Wolfpack_MatrixForum)
Post #: 26
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