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RE: Is this game still alive? - 3/30/2007 6:22:22 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald

If the AI is causing Matrix fits, I say just forget about it and release the game as soon as possible.

Do that and you sell about 200 copies.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to sol_invictus)

Post #: 31

RE: Is this game still alive? - 3/30/2007 7:07:07 AM

dinsdale

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/1/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald

It seems like the AI is the big hold-up, big surprise there, and something about email. Who in their right mind would play this game against the AI. If the AI is causing Matrix fits, I say just forget
about it and release the game as soon as possible. AI will never be able to play this game well.

Ask Paradox how that worked out for them with Diplomacy. ;)

The game you've described already exists. It's called Empires In Arms. Either the boardgame or through Vassal, and releasing a game which isn't quite EIA and doesn't have an AI would be worse than not releasing it all IMHO.

(in reply to sol_invictus)

Post #: 32

RE: Is this game still alive? - 3/30/2007 11:08:19 PM

cdbeck

Posts: 1374
Joined: 8/16/2005
From: Indiana
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I like AI, and would not buy the game with no AI or a faulty one.

Better off vaporware than bad, as Dinsdale said. You can use Vassal to make a mock up of the boardgame.

SoM

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 33

RE: Is this game still alive? - 3/31/2007 12:39:47 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
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I just want to know who in their infinite ignorance gave the phrase to computer opponents as "artificial INTELLIGENCE?" I would tend to say it is more "Artificial Ignorant". Even so, I wouldn't buy the game either unless it had one. If anything it gives me something else to complain about in the game(s). lol ;)

(in reply to cdbeck)

Post #: 34

RE: Is this game still alive? - 3/31/2007 1:40:46 AM

pasternakski

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I refer to it as "artificial stupidity."

Some game designers have made significant progress in AI. I have touted them at length on these forums. Nobody listens. All we get is hand-wringing and, "Gee, it can't be done, and, even if we could, we can't afford to spend the time on it." Pasternakski, of course, is a flaming jerk for saying anything on the subject...

A jerk's question, then: Can you afford the time it takes to go broke?

The promise of computer wargames, dating well back into the 1980s to an advertising statement by SSI, was, "When you don't have a human opponent, the computer can give you a good game."

Before computer wargames, a survey by SPI magazine showed that more than 77 percent of board wargames (and this before popular solitaire designs emerged) were played solitaire. When computer wargames showed themselves to be deficient in AI opponent design, most players either just quit or ran to the rapidly developing game console designs and clicked away like happy crickets on a hot summer night in Arkansas. Look at the huge successes games primarily designed for solitaire play have enjoyed ... the Civilization series ... Galactic Civilizations and its offspring ... these, of course, are not "wargames," but it sure would be nice if Matrix got its act together and came up with a "megahit" - and their lame rework of "Axis and Allies" wasn't it.

Matrix came along and promised a revitalization of computer wargaming in a style that would accommodate the "traditional" computer wargamer and bring 'em back to the hobby.

Okay ... I'm waiting. Other publishers have done better (AGEOD, Brad Wardell at Stardock, and HPS, to name a few). How about you, Matrix/2by3?

< Message edited by pasternakski -- 3/31/2007 1:42:06 AM >

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 35

RE: Is this game still alive? - 3/31/2007 9:47:00 AM

Murat

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I really liked Galactic Civ etc. because they explained just how much AI each level actually had. Get 9 ops at 200% economy who have been analyzing your play and you have to be brilliant to survive, let alone win. Of course it also allows you to hold a significant advantage for a game just to feel better about yourself as you conquer the galaxy before the other races have even learned basic tech

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 36

RE: Is this game still alive? - 3/31/2007 10:40:28 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat
Of course it also allows you to hold a significant advantage for a game just to feel better about yourself as you conquer the galaxy before the other races�have even learned basic tech

But I play computer games just so I can feel better about myself.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Murat)

Post #: 37

RE: Is this game still alive? - 3/31/2007 5:18:41 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

pasternakski,

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
for solitaire play have enjoyed ... the Civilization series ... Galactic Civilizations and its offspring ... these, of course, are not "wargames," but it sure would be nice if Matrix got its act together and came up with a "megahit" - and their lame rework of "Axis and Allies" wasn't it.

I understand your point, but I think you're way off base in your conclusions. I'd put the AWD AI up against Civilization's or BOA's or any of HPS's any day of the week. I'd do the same with many of our games. GalCiv does have quite a good AI, but I think Conquest of the Aegean's is at least as good.

quote:

Matrix came along and promised a revitalization of computer wargaming in a style that would accommodate the "traditional" computer wargamer and bring 'em back to the hobby.Okay ... I'm waiting. Other publishers have done better (AGEOD, Brad Wardell at Stardock, and HPS, to name a few). How about you, Matrix/2by3?

So you're saying the others have done better strictly based on their AI performance? I don't buy it, I've played their games and ours and by and large I see the same or better AI in our games across the board.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 38

RE: Is this game still alive? - 3/31/2007 8:45:58 PM

YohanTM2

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From: Toronto
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I concurr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald

It seems like the AI is the big hold-up, big surprise there, and something about email. Who in their right mind would play this game against the AI. If the AI is causing Matrix fits, I say just forget about it and release the game as soon as possible. AI will never be able to play this game well.

(in reply to sol_invictus)

Post #: 39

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/2/2007 5:04:31 AM

1LTRambo

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Joined: 8/31/2004
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I have been in and out of this forum for nearly 3 years and still want to believe that this will be a game worth waiting for. However, I must express my concerns that we have not herd from Marshall for quite some time. Even the slightest nugget to keep us holding on would be sufficient. Please don't keep us in the dark to speculate and allow pessimism to grow.

After all, all we want is a quality game.

(in reply to sol_invictus)

Post #: 40

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/2/2007 8:25:41 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1LTRambo

Even the slightest nugget to keep us holding on would be sufficient. Please don't keep us in the dark to speculate and allow pessimism to grow

Wow. Sounds like a combination of constipation, vertigo, blindness, hallucination, depression and prostate cancer to me.

What a game, hah? "If I gave a sh1t, I'd hang in there, but I can't see it except in my dreams, so I'm gonna kill myself because I can't pee right."

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to 1LTRambo)

Post #: 41

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/2/2007 5:27:44 PM

cdbeck

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From: Indiana
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If I were Marshall I wouldn't even READ the forum. Everytime the poor guy posts, it blows up in his face. He ends up having every single word of his post quoted, misquoted, taken out of context. I swear, people use numerology on discrete words to try to magically reackon the release date.

In essence, if I were him, I would leave us in the dark too...

SoM

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 42

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/2/2007 7:18:27 PM

dinsdale

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Joined: 5/1/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

If I were Marshall I wouldn't even READ the forum. Everytime the poor guy posts, it blows up in his face. He ends up having every single word of his post quoted, misquoted, taken out of context. I swear, people use numerology on discrete words to try to magically reackon the release date.

In essence, if I were him, I would leave us in the dark too...

SoM

Yes, it's probably best to not let anyone know if the game will ever be finished, or to post updates about progress/how the game is shaping up.

That unique marketing strategy should ensure a rabid audience ready to buy the game if it ever does come out.

Maybe Marshal's words wouldn't be parsed if he hadn't announced the imminent release of this game several times over the last three years, then posted an enigmatic "it's almost ready" months ago.

WiF appears to be a long process, but the developer there is pouring vast amounts of information out every month. No one parsing his words or speculating on how dead that game is.

(in reply to cdbeck)

Post #: 43

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/4/2007 1:15:35 AM

Michael T

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From: Queensland, Australia.
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What a pity a professional company like HPS didn't pick this game up for development rather than Matrix. No doubt by now we would have been playing a very enjoyable version of EIA. Since Matrix first announced this game I could have gone to uni, got a degree in computer science, learnt to code and developed the bloody game myself! Come on Matrix get this project finished or hand it over to someone else. If Matrix do somehow manage to get this game complete and in a playable format I will buy it ( thats a big if) but they can forget about me buying any more of their products. They seem like a bunch of amatures to me. Get your act together Matrix.

(in reply to dinsdale)

Post #: 44

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/4/2007 1:52:20 AM

pasternakski

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Well, while I agree with you in spirit, I have to come to Matrix's defense on one point.

HPS games are good at what they are, but I doubt that they would have made palatable soup out of this large, unwieldy, and inedible stone. I find HPS games to be mostly "cookie cutter" designs based on a core game system that does some things well, other things not as well, and strategic-level simulations not at all.

I still "feel" for Marshall Ellis, who got handed a failed project already under fire for being delayed and seemingly without direction and substance.

My primary complaint (okay, all you Matrix apologists, I'll go "boo hoo, wah wah, I want my cake and eat it, too, and I want it RIGHT NOW or I'm gonna pinch me butt together so tight I'll fill up and explode poop all over everybody, and then won't you all be happy?") is that Matrix, instead of throwing its support behind this product and helping get it done, decided to go traipsing around all over the globe looking for games to pimp - I mean, "market" - in hopes of making some dough-re-mi while leaving those of us who came along for the ride in the first place either disillusioned or forced into buying "Axis & Allies" rehashes, goofy space shoot-em-ups (including, of all things, a cyber card collecting thingie), RTS fluff, and other trash.

How about coming back to Kansas, Dorothy, and learning to appreciate Auntie Em? She's the one who fed and raised you when you were just starting out, after all...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 45

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/4/2007 7:13:26 PM

qgaliana

Posts: 311
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You're a big fan of GGWAW Pasternakski?

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 46

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/4/2007 7:36:33 PM

LarryP

Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Well, while I agree with you in spirit, I have to come to Matrix's defense on one point.

HPS games are good at what they are, but I doubt that they would have made palatable soup out of this large, unwieldy, and inedible stone. I find HPS games to be mostly "cookie cutter" designs based on a core game system that does some things well, other things not as well, and strategic-level simulations not at all.

I still "feel" for Marshall Ellis, who got handed a failed project already under fire for being delayed and seemingly without direction and substance.

My primary complaint (okay, all you Matrix apologists, I'll go "boo hoo, wah wah, I want my cake and eat it, too, and I want it RIGHT NOW or I'm gonna pinch me butt together so tight I'll fill up and explode poop all over everybody, and then won't you all be happy?") is that Matrix, instead of throwing its support behind this product and helping get it done, decided to go traipsing around all over the globe looking for games to pimp - I mean, "market" - in hopes of making some dough-re-mi while leaving those of us who came along for the ride in the first place either disillusioned or forced into buying "Axis & Allies" rehashes, goofy space shoot-em-ups (including, of all things, a cyber card collecting thingie), RTS fluff, and other trash.

How about coming back to Kansas, Dorothy, and learning to appreciate Auntie Em? She's the one who fed and raised you when you were just starting out, after all...

For having posted 4828 times, you must like Matrix still?

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 47

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/4/2007 8:29:32 PM

Erik Rutins

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From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: krak
Since Matrix first announced this game I could have gone to uni, got a degree in computer science, learnt to code and developed the bloody game myself! Come on Matrix get this project finished or hand it over to someone else. If Matrix do somehow manage to get this game complete and in a playable format I will buy it ( thats a big if) but they can forget about me�buying any more�of their products. They seem like a bunch of amatures to me. Get your act together Matrix.

You are welcome to give it a try. These things often look easier from the outside looking in.

I agree this game has been delayed beyond what we would have ever expected. I disagree with Pasternakski that we haven't released anything worthwhile in the meantime. I don't know if I could possibly disagree with that more strongly than I do. We've released over forty titles at this point and a good majority of those have been wargames, the vast majority of those new and released here for the first time. There are many projects going on at once and each one has its own set of challenges, this one is no exception.

With that said, I'll see if there's anything we can do at this point that we're not doing to speed this along.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 48

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/4/2007 9:56:57 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
I disagree with Pasternakski that we haven't released anything worthwhile in the meantime. I don't know if I could possibly disagree with that more strongly than I do. We've released over forty titles at this point and a good majority of those have been wargames, the vast majority of those new and released here for the first time. There are many projects going on at once and each one has its own set of challenges, this one is no exception.

Well, then, we simply disagree.

I only point out that there's a difference between "releasing" and "developing."

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 49

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/4/2007 11:16:59 PM

Joisey

Posts: 161
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From: Montgomery, New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: krak
Since Matrix first announced this game I could have gone to uni, got a degree in computer science, learnt to code and developed the bloody game myself! Come on Matrix get this project finished or hand it over to someone else. If Matrix do somehow manage to get this game complete and in a playable format I will buy it ( thats a big if) but they can forget about me�buying any more�of their products. They seem like a bunch of amatures to me. Get your act together Matrix.

You are welcome to give it a try. These things often look easier from the outside looking in.

I agree this game has been delayed beyond what we would have ever expected. I disagree with Pasternakski that we haven't released anything worthwhile in the meantime. I don't know if I could possibly disagree with that more strongly than I do. We've released over forty titles at this point and a good majority of those have been wargames, the vast majority of those new and released here for the first time. There are many projects going on at once and each one has its own set of challenges, this one is no exception.

With that said, I'll see if there's anything we can do at this point that we're not doing to speed this along.

Regards,

- Erik

You don't need to rush it out the door. Just give us a progress report. What is the big hurdle you're working on? How about a screen shot of something that 's been fixed?

_____________________________

"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 50

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/5/2007 12:42:41 AM

Michael T

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Thank you Erik for your reply. It is good to finally get a comment from a Matrix official about the state of this situation. Any findings you may be able to report would be most welcome by all I would imagine.
Regards

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 51

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/5/2007 7:10:25 AM

Erik Rutins

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From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Well, then, we simply disagree.
I only point out that there's a difference between "releasing" and "developing."

Ah, I see. We don't talk much about what happens behind the scenes, so you just assume that all we do is slap a box and a CD together and send it out. No prior involvement, no input, etc. That's not true in any of the cases. At a minimum, we keep track of the project and do our own testing and provide input based on that, to make sure it lives up to our expectations before it goes out. Even in the case of a re-release like say Chariots of War or Birth of America, we do basic game and installation testing before release. Those are the minimum involvement releases. We're more successful with that in some cases than in others, but we're involved.

Then there are the projects we've funded, which would otherwise never have been developed at all. There are projects where we provided major design _and_ development assistance that would never have been the games they were or been released at any point this decade without our involvement. There are projects where we did all the art, wrote the manual, added major features, etc. It runs the gamut and the degree of involvement often depends on the development team's needs, preferences, experience and budget.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 52

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/5/2007 7:10:46 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: krak
Thank you Erik for your reply. It is good to finally get a comment from a Matrix official about the state of this situation. Any findings you may be able to report would be most welcome by all I would imagine.

I hear you, I'm looking into it.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 53

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/5/2007 8:34:03 PM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: krak
Thank you Erik for your reply. It is good to finally get a comment from a Matrix official about the state of this situation. Any findings you may be able to report would be most welcome by all I would imagine.

I hear you, I'm looking into it.

If the game really is in it's final stages of development, almost ready to release, it makes sense that Matrix would stop taking suggestions. The biggest single delay they've had with MEiA was when they were very far along, and then decided to go back and redesign it to include TMR, which many long-time EiA fans lobbied intensly for. So really, it's our fan community that has done as much to hold this game up as anything.

That said, thanks for looking into it Erik

_____________________________

"The creative combination lays bare the presumption of a lie." -- Lasker

Keith Henderson

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 54

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/6/2007 12:17:15 AM

pasternakski

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"I hear you, I'm looking into it" at this late date doesn't square very comfortably with your recent assertions that Matrix has full input into, and control over, all designs whether "developed" or merely "published."

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 55

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/6/2007 2:29:43 AM

StCyr

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quote:

The biggest single delay they've had with MEiA was when they were very far along, and then decided to go back and redesign it to include TMR, which many long-time EiA fans lobbied intensly for. So really, it's our fan community that has done as much to hold this game up as anything.

Sorry coregames, but I think you are wrong. To leave TMR away was the mistake.
And it was not the decision of the "fan community" to do so, it was the ignorance of somebody else.

If you make a mistake and sombody tells you about it and then you lose time to correct it- would you blame the guy(s) who told you about your bad design ?

PS: I doubt, that TMR really was/is the biggest problem...

< Message edited by StCyr -- 4/6/2007 2:39:41 AM >

(in reply to coregames)

Post #: 56

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/6/2007 3:39:36 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
"I hear you, I'm looking into it" at this late date doesn't square very comfortably with your recent assertions that Matrix has full input into, and control over, all designs whether "developed" or merely "published."

Matrix does, but since my son was born I'm not in all the loops any more due to time limitations, therefore I'm now looking into it to see if there's anything more we can do to help.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 57

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/6/2007 4:10:43 AM

pasternakski

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Well, Erik, I will try to refrain from being more of an @$$hole than I usually am, but the problem here (and with GoA and with MWiF and with ...) seems to me to be that a decision was made by Matrix that selling was better than developing, because that's how you squeeze out a few bucks while the time is ripe. At the same time, the dynamic appears to have become "minimize applicable resources, they only cost money."

As a result, a lot of things got lost, a lot of things got screwed up, a lot of good feeling was lost, and a lot of lousy crap (that made little or no money) hit the Internet.

Relationships I saw as boding great things for the future (first with 2by3, later Frank Hunter, AGEOD and others) seem to have become questionable and lack the direction that firm, effective leadership would provide.

Somebody needs to step up and put the whole operation back into focus and deliver that clear picture not only to those who have supported Matrix not just by lip service in the past but also with hard-cash purchases, but also to those who are looking to provide that kind of market-base prosperity in the future. Wargamers ain't dead yet, my friend, but, just like with believers in the greatness of America, their faith is faltering.

In 2002, when my credit card and I enlisted for the duration of the conflict, the motto had to do with putting meaning back into computer wargaming, and the emphasis was to be on excellence and wargaming focus of product and on targeting customers who wanted a revitalization and redesign of computer wargaming as it began, in the late 1980s and early 1990s, to emerge as the follow-on - and savior - of old-style board wargaming.

What we got now, homes? UFO extraterrestrials? The Harbinger Saga? Excuse me...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 58

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/6/2007 4:55:26 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

Good point.

I think that many of us are looking for more than what the commercialized "mainstraem" gaming community is offering (fast and loose with little respect for any historical relevance and primarily focused on turning a buck by using real "populist" concepts and imagery).

That is why I am here at Matrix and am hoping and expecting more than populist crap with more emphasis on turning a dollar than meeting their market wants and needs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Well, Erik, I will try to refrain from being more of an @$$hole than I usually am, but the problem here (and with GoA and with MWiF and with ...) seems to me to be that a decision was made by Matrix that selling was better than developing, because that's how you squeeze out a few bucks while the time is ripe. At the same time, the dynamic appears to have become "minimize applicable resources, they only cost money."

As a result, a lot of things got lost, a lot of things got screwed up, a lot of good feeling was lost, and a lot of lousy crap (that made little or no money) hit the Internet.

Relationships I saw as boding great things for the future (first with 2by3, later Frank Hunter, AGEOD and others) seem to have become questionable and lack the direction that firm, effective leadership would provide.

Somebody needs to step up and put the whole operation back into focus and deliver that clear picture not only to those who have supported Matrix not just by lip service in the past but also with hard-cash purchases, but also to those who are looking to provide that kind of market-base prosperity in the future. Wargamers ain't dead yet, my friend, but, just like with believers in the greatness of America, their faith is faltering.

In 2002, when my credit card and I enlisted for the duration of the conflict, the motto had to do with putting meaning back into computer wargaming, and the emphasis was to be on excellence and wargaming focus of product and on targeting customers who wanted a revitalization and redesign of computer wargaming as it began, in the late 1980s and early 1990s, to emerge as the follow-on - and savior - of old-style board wargaming.

What we got now, homes? UFO extraterrestrials? The Harbinger Saga? Excuse me...

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 59

RE: Is this game still alive? - 4/6/2007 5:22:10 AM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

...and I'm hoping ... I'm hanging in ... I want it to succeed ... everyone I have dealt with from Matrix has been first rate ...

but ... but ... but ...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 60

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Slitherine

RE: Is this game still alive?