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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/10/2007 2:00:15 AM

SMK-at-work

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Buz & I have had some discussion about most of these so I'll post my thinking here too.

Ref item 3 - the 2 Soviet Battleships - I didnt' ralise there was a Sov battleship Murmansk?? Archangel (Archangelsk) was the ex-HMS Royal Sovereign given to the Sov's in august 1944 in lieu of their "share" of the Italian fleet taken as war booty in 1943. It was returned grudgingly in 1949, in a considerable mess according to 1 source I have. It never did anything and I suggested it be deleted.

Shallow sea zones (item 4) - I favour removing them all, with a couple of exceptions - Leningrad/Krondstadt could usefully remain IMO - with a house rule that Sov naval units cannot enter the Gulf of Finland once Tallinin is taken, representing the myriad minefields and otehr obstacles that teh Axis put there and which weren't cleard until after the war. And secondly the Sea of Azov - AFAIK it was shallow and heavy units never operated there - the Italians bought in some craft and formed a flotilla but htey weer all very small and not worth putting in the game.

A possible alternative for he Baltic Fleet is to create a new naval unit type that has no movement - essentially a fort, and put it on Krondstadt representing the fortifications and guns there, as well as the stationary ships of the fleet.

Item 5 - not sure what the problem is with 2 Sov MP units near Murmansk?

Item 6 - I suggested that Soviet supply should decrease slightly in Winter 1941 - perhaps -5. they had their problems too, but they weer operating closer to base. I read recently of Zhukov (I think) complaining that he had only received small %'s of his required arty ammo requirements in Jan and Feb of 1942 outside Moscow.

Item 8 - German divisional artillery was often tied directly to its regiments and not able to support other regimetns fo the same division - having divisions give free support to each other is not reflective of this. It was still more flexible than Sov arty was tho!

the 2 house rules
A - soviet doctrine in 1941 was to counterattack - so ahving Sov unitsin hte border zone try to run away is anachronistic - hence a house rule that they cannot move further from teh border than they are unles it is to attack an axis unit.

B - without sea zones naval landings become too easy, so a distance limit from the port of embarkation sems a simple means of limiting them. also possibly limiting naval invasions to be launched only from major ports (ie those with 2 or more port hexes) - smaller ports can only be used to ship troops too and from your own areas.

C- a suggestion I made that I think Buz liked but which he didn't include above - limit sealift capacity in each theatre for both sides.

Sov's - max 1000 in Arctic, 2000 in Baltic, 2000 in Balck sea (total 5000). Baltic reduces 1000 with loss of Riga, 1000 with loss of Tallinin (events reduce total by 2000)

Black Sea - 2000 reduces by 500 with loss of Odessa, 1000 with loss of Sevastopol, 500 with loss of a port who's name I dont' recall - half way from Novorossisk to Turkey where the Fleet ended up beign based after Novorossisk fell.

Arctic - 1000, 500 each Murmansk and Archangel.

Axis - 0 in the arctic. dunno how much in the Baltic, but 500 in the Black Sea, increasing 500 when Sevastopol is captured and lose it again when recaptured, and lose 500 for Odessa also on the basis that they don't need it after that.

(in reply to Zort)

Post #: 31

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/10/2007 2:46:32 AM

Zort

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

C- a suggestion I made that I think Buz liked but which he didn't include above - limit sealift capacity in each theatre for both sides.

Sov's - max 1000 in Arctic, 2000 in Baltic, 2000 in Balck sea (total 5000).� Baltic reduces 1000 with loss of Riga, 1000 with loss of Tallinin (events reduce total by 2000)

Black Sea - 2000 reduces by 500 with loss of Odessa, 1000 with loss of Sevastopol, 500 with loss of a port who's name I dont' recall - half way from Novorossisk to Turkey where the Fleet ended up beign based after Novorossisk fell.

Arctic - 1000, 500 each Murmansk and Archangel.

Axis - 0 in the arctic.� dunno how much in the Baltic, but 500 in the Black Sea, increasing 500 when Sevastopol is captured and lose it again when recaptured, and lose 500 for Odessa also on the basis that they don't need it after that.

Good idea, I forgot to mention it, needs events. I think the Germans should be able to transport the Mtn div from Narvik when it comes in.

quote:

Item 5 - not sure what the problem is with 2 Sov MP units near Murmansk?

Just wanted to prevent the ants from invading northern Finland, I could just take all their trucks away but they aren't that great a loss to the Sovs.

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Post #: 32

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/10/2007 3:36:36 AM

SMK-at-work

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How did the Mtn division actually get from Narvik? Was it by sea? If so give them an event-driven-once-only boost to naval transport to enable it when the division arrives?

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Post #: 33

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/10/2007 3:36:53 AM

Zort

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The events don't allow me to just reduce the sea transport by a set amount, forces me to set a new total. So unless I am missing something we will have to go with a house rule on sea transport.

As for the MP guys, I am just going to move them back so they aren't on the border.

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Post #: 34

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/10/2007 3:42:22 AM

SMK-at-work

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bummer - yeah it would take a lot of events to figure out all the possible combinations of lost cities....

'

One more for the list for TOAW 4....

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Post #: 35

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/10/2007 6:04:57 AM

Veers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work
One more for the list for TOAW 4....

Or, hopefully, T3.

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Post #: 36

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/14/2007 8:16:43 PM

cjwid

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Hi!

Where can I found the latest modified FTIE scenario?

I belive that there is some very good/nesceisery modifications to the very good FTIE.

/Carl-Johan

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Post #: 37

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/15/2007 11:18:41 PM

Zort

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Guys, SMK and I finished tweaking the changes to the mod. What really needs to be done is work on the equipment file to add new stuff but I am just too lazy to do that right now. SMK did lots of research, talked to the designers and found out lots of interesting things. Hats off to the original crew who put this scenario together. If they had had an eqp editor and 4000 possible units for the soviets it really would have been neater. My hope is that this time the events don't mess up, they shouldn't since I left them basically alone (now I said that before....). Thanks to SMK for all his research and ideas, hope all the things we did don't take away from the enjoyment of playing this scenario.

Think next time I will put in a theater option allowing increased German tank production!!

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Post #: 38

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/15/2007 11:31:01 PM

Telumar

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So, is a new version available or are you (SMK-at-work) still working on the equipment?

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Post #: 39

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/15/2007 11:34:16 PM

Zort

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It's available and I sent it to those who have asked for it.

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Post #: 40

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/25/2007 8:02:14 PM

Guesclin

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I've received the files and it's working like a charm. Thanks again.

I have a question regarding the Axis.
In the stock version (and in the mod), the panzergrenadiers regiments cannot switch mid-game to the AT- version of the heavy rifle squad unlike the infantry regiments. It contradicts what's written in the background.doc file that comes with the scenario which states that the PzG will receive "Assault squads AT+. For the same reason as the other German units". I realize it's since been "downgraded" to HSR AT-, but why are they not available to PzG ?
I'm guessing I must be missing something very obvious here but I thought I'd asked anyway.

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Post #: 41

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/25/2007 9:49:46 PM

LLv34_Snefens

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We hadn't discussed other than all german units would be able to get the AT- squads, so it's 100% a bug. Looking back it's easy to figure out what have happend.
The editor is a dangerous equipment, so if a unit has 24 types of equipment and you add an extra it simply deletes the type at the bottom. At some point in one of the version we must have added new equipment to the PzG regs without checking if we had reached the limit and the Hvy Rifle AT- "fell off the table" so to speak.

It's a pity, and it means that late in the game the PzG regs will suffer a slow withering death. There still remains 27780 slots in the units (regular Inf regs)that DO have the AT- squads. With an replacement rate of 308/turn starting at turn 265, theoretical the Germans can run out of free slots on turn 355. But that's if they don't take any casualties at all. In practise it's not gonna matter that much.

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Post #: 42

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 4/26/2007 2:03:28 AM

Zort

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Thanks for the info. Here is what a PzG reg contains. Is there something you would want to remove for the Hvy Rifle AT?

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 43

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/3/2007 10:32:48 AM

sPzAbt653

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May I suggest the Pz II Flames? Achtung Panzer reports there were 90 of these made and for Barbarossa all were organised into two abt. given to the 7th and 18th Pz Divisions. All were retired in Dec. '41 to be converted into Marders. Therefore it may not be necessary to have them occupying a slot in all pzgr regs. If it is desired to keep them in the oob, maybe add all 90 to the pz regs of the 7th and 18th?

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Post #: 44

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/3/2007 6:02:53 PM

Jeff Norton

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Dumb question time, but, how many slots are available in the equipment editor? Can more equipment be added?

I see there is, what, 10 free slots at the end of the list. Using BioEd, can more be added to the DB?

-J

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Post #: 45

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/3/2007 6:28:01 PM

Veers

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You can put as many as you want in, if you write over existant equipment.

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Post #: 46

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/4/2007 5:11:30 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

May I suggest the Pz II Flames? Achtung Panzer reports there were 90 of these made and for Barbarossa all were organised into two abt. given to the 7th and 18th Pz Divisions. All were retired in Dec. '41 to be converted into Marders. Therefore it may not be necessary to have them occupying a slot in all pzgr regs. If it is desired to keep them in the oob, maybe add all 90 to the pz regs of the 7th and 18th?

Looking into it, the Pz Reg '41's don't withdraw until a year after the PzII's were retired, so it wouldn't be proper to add the flames to those units of the 7th and 18th PzDiv's. I might try putting them in their separate abteilungs to see how it works.

Does anybody know how many HRAT- squads should be added to the PzGr Reg's? 100? 120? 80?

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Post #: 47

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/4/2007 7:22:43 PM

sPzAbt653

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re: 22. Changed Soviet production: 200% on turn 48, 150% on turn 78.

Is the 150% on turn 78 in addition to the 150% in 1944? Or does it replace it?

Thanks.

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Post #: 48

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/4/2007 8:57:51 PM

Telumar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

May I suggest the Pz II Flames? Achtung Panzer reports there were 90 of these made and for Barbarossa all were organised into two abt. given to the 7th and 18th Pz Divisions. All were retired in Dec. '41 to be converted into Marders. Therefore it may not be necessary to have them occupying a slot in all pzgr regs. If it is desired to keep them in the oob, maybe add all 90 to the pz regs of the 7th and 18th?

Looking into it, the Pz Reg '41's don't withdraw until a year after the PzII's were retired, so it wouldn't be proper to add the flames to those units of the 7th and 18th PzDiv's. I might try putting them in their separate abteilungs to see how it works.

Does anybody know how many HRAT- squads should be added to the PzGr Reg's? 100? 120? 80?

Depends on the single Regiment. Can't speak with certainity for the early years, but 43+ the PzGren Regt consisted of two battalions, three in some elite units i.e. the Leibstandarde or das Reich.. For three Bns per Regt i'd take 81 (3*27 combat squads), for two 54.
I would also take 27 combat squads per Bn for the earlier PzGren Regt (for both, the armoured and the motorised one). As i said i am not entirely sure, but there were two Bns per PzGren Regt aka (Motorisiertes) Sch�tzenregiment already in 41 (except elite units with 3).

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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/4/2007 9:33:08 PM

sPzAbt653

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Thanks for that! I just love mulling over this Fite oob! I just reached turn 24 and now I am sick that I can't go all the way to the end as the PzGr reg's will be severely handicapped after the beginning of '44. Oh, well, I must fix it and start over. Um, unless I can open my turn 24 in the editor and make the changes there. What do you think?

So the way I am reading this, if I modify the 1st PzGr Reg of the 1st Pz Div, I would add 54 HRAT- squads? (as it is a two battalion unit). And of course starting at 0/squads as the HRAT- come in at the beginning of 1944.

These regiments must have had more squads per battalion in 1941, as the 1st PzGr starts the game with 120/100 squads, and it only had two battalions per regiment.

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Post #: 50

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/4/2007 10:02:41 PM

Karri

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Some notes:
1. Supply situation and cease fire. I'd like to remove the cease fire periods completely. Instead those should be replaced by same amount of turns with extremely low supply, low rail repair and low supply radius. Also drop shock and air shock to say 80% for both sides. After the...7 turns is it? anyways when ground freezes those values will rise back to normal. This should hit the Axis heavier since they have been moving further from their core area while Soviets have been withdrawing towards theirs.

Also I would like to double if not triple the automatic rail repair for germans, however lowering it when the mud hits. To my undrestanding the rail roads were pretty quickly repaired...?

2. Air units. The Soviet air is too powerful. First of all make the low shock affect it way longer. Give the Germans a higher air shock for longer.

3. Soviet border units should be mobile and on minimise losses on the first turn.

4. Soviet units in Finnish border should not activate before finns do. Same with Romanians.

On top of that I am going to go thbrough the numbers for production for both sides. The system is to my undrestanding designed for historical production...unfortunately not every, if any, games are historical and therefore strange things happen. I think I calcualted that even if Soviets lose every city they still have 8% or something production.

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Post #: 51

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/4/2007 10:10:14 PM

Karri

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And I am also looking how to make it easier for the Finns to defend East Karelia. Currently their troops are no enough for that...

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Post #: 52

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/4/2007 10:20:23 PM

Telumar

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quote:

Thanks for that! I just love mulling over this Fite oob! I just reached turn 24 and now I am sick that I can't go all the way to the end as the PzGr reg's will be severely handicapped after the beginning of '44. Oh, well, I must fix it and start over. Um, unless I can open my turn 24 in the editor and make the changes there. What do you think?

So the way I am reading this, if I modify the 1st PzGr Reg of the 1st Pz Div, I would add 54 HRAT- squads? (as it is a two battalion unit). And of course starting at 0/squads as the HRAT- come in at the beginning of 1944.

These regiments must have had more squads per battalion in 1941, as the 1st PzGr starts the game with 120/100 squads, and it only had two battalions per regiment.

I suggest you to visit this:

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/ (go to OOBs, Gliederungen amd KStN)
http://www.lexikonderwehrmacht.de/
http://www.feldgrau.com/
http://www.tdg.nu/OOBs/1939-1945/oob_toe_german_inf_1939-1945.htm
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/000_admin/000oob.htm
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/

On the 120 squads, the designers of the original FitE have adressed this in the original briefing.

I wouldn't load a turn into the editor, it will mess up later events as your former turn 24 will be counted as the new turn 1. Well, renaming a pbl or sal file extension to .sce to load it into the scenario editor was possible in COW, i don't know if this is still possible.

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Post #: 53

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/4/2007 10:45:41 PM

sPzAbt653

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Just my thoughts, I will make reference when I am giving something from 'real'source.

1. So far I haven't minded the cease fires too much. As the overall commander of one side or the other I figure there will be major occurences of things beyong my control. Guderian did say that there was no supply problem until the mud came, then the trucks couldn't get to the front from the railheads. He stated this was the reason for all movement and offensive operations coming to a halt.

Hitler and Halder both called the German rail situation 'catastrophic'. Even as late as February '42 the rail system still failed to fuction. Hitler himself saw it as such a disaster that he ordered a committee of investigation. As I played this game the first time, I felt that it was far too easy for the Germans to have effective railheads very near their fontlines. As I love to tinker with these games I have in the past eliminated most of the railrepair units and increased the auto-repair slightly over time, recreating a 'catastrophy' that over the time span of the game becomes better.

2. I do remember reading somewhere that the Soviet airforce was considered ineffective until late in '43. But as I am no expert on air power, I don't know who made this statement or how true it was.

3. I never know what to do with Soviet border units early in the struggle. Historically communications and supplies were down, and they were left on their own. Some resisted bravely, some threw down their rifles and surrendered, others fled into the countryside. How to get a computer to accurately potray this?

4. I'm not so interested in how the Finn and Romanian border areas are handled, so I won't comment.

Production I don't know alot about, but the Russians did effectively move almost all their heavy industry to west of the Urals. When Lend Lease was added, they were unstopable.

(in reply to Karri)

Post #: 54

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/4/2007 11:14:01 PM

Karri

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Irregular squad 68 507
Military Police Squad 12 089
Mounted Rifle Squad(late) 45 839
Motorcycle squad 32 238
Light Rifle squad 81 100
Rifle squad 586 840
Heavy Rifle Squad 145 576
SMG squad 224 661
SMG AT- Squad 9 799
Assault Squad 57 163
Reconneisance Rifle Team 10 074
Reconneisance Assault Team 2 519
Engineer Squad 139 532
Rail Repair Crew 15 112
Ferry-Bridging Team 40 802
Support Squad 40 298
Command Group 16 623
Medium MG 61 958
Heavy MG 152 629
AT Rifle 202 497
Heavy AT Rifle 11 615
28mm AT Gun 2 015
45mm AT Gun 92 182
50mm AT Gun 504
57mm/6 Pounder AT Gun 8 060
76mm AT Gun 2 519
85mm AT Gun 2 529
75mm Gun 1 511
76mm Gun 73 040
76mm ER Gun 12 094
76mm Howitzer 24 683
107mm Gun 18 511
107mm ER Gun
122mm Howitzer 10 074
122mm Gun 5 541
122mm ER Gun 8 060
130mm ER Gun 63
152mm Howitzer 1 007
152mm Gun 3 022
152mm ER Gun 4 534
180mm ER Gun 504
203mm Howitzer 504
305mm Gun 40
50mm Mortar 189 834
82mm Mortar 188 393
107mm Mortar 7 052
120mm Mortar 43 824
160mm Mortar 2 454
280mm Fixed Gun
300mm Fixed Gun
400mm Fixed Gun
305mm RR Gun
Armored Train 9
82mm Katyusha MRL 1 511
82mm Katyusha SPMRL 2 519
132mm Katyusha SPMRL 8 095
300mm MRL 3 113
BM-13 132mm SPMRL 1 008
Truck SPAAMG 2 015
Dual AAMG 5 037
Quad AAMG 5 541
37mm AA Gun 22 164
76mm AA Gun 11 586
85mm AA Gun 4 534
Light Scout Car 2 789
Jeep 44 624
Medium Scout Car 2 325
Wheeled 20mm Scout 1 312
BA-10 Armored Car 31 231
BA-20 Armored Car 13 453
BA-64 Armored Car 7 989
Horse Team 256 900
Fast Horse Team 15 112
Truck 101 249
Halftrack 8 997
Amphibious Ferry 900
PzKpfw IIIJ 450
T-26 2 742
T-26(flame)
T-27
T-28(early) 40
T-28(late) 40
T-37 1 089
T-38 565
T-40 605
T-60 5 988
T-70 28 459
BT-5
BT-7 2 016
OT-7
T-35
KV-I(early) 2 261
KV-I(late) 456
KV-II 202
KV-85 215
T-34/76(early) 8 445
T-34/76(flame) 232
T-34/76(late) 28 415
T-34/85 39 360
SU-76 20 497
SU-85 4 530
SU-100 4 889
ISU-122 3 937
ISU-152 5 279
IS-II 5 627
Matilda II 1 263
Valentine(early) 4 789
M3 Lee/Grant 1 819
M4/75 Sherman 5 760
Destroyer 6
Cruiser(early) 3
Light Cruiser 3
Heavy Cruiser 3
Battlecruiser
Battleship 2
I-15
I-16 5 525
SB-2
Il-4 3 386
Il-2 51 884
LaGG-3 7 418
La-5FN 13 065
La-7 8 624
MiG-1
MiG-3 2 420
Pe-2 15 053
Su-2
Tu-2 1 417
Yak-1 18 745
Yak-4
Yak-9 32 136
Hurricane 3 747
Spitfire(late) 1 874
Lancaster(late) 2 833
Tempest 2 361
SBD Dauntless 2 833
A-20 Havoc 4 794
B-17(late) 2 015
B-26 Marauder(late) 2 015
P-39 Aircobra 8 266
P-40(late) 2 908
P-51 Mustang(late) 8 563

Soviet production figures...there might be slight calculation erros but nothing drastic.

< Message edited by Karri -- 5/4/2007 11:15:31 PM >

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Post #: 55

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/4/2007 11:16:13 PM

Karri

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The message boards screw up the format, but you get the idea. Now I need to check these to historical productions(where to find those...). This is btw supposed to be the historical production. DOes not include starting pool nor assigned equipment, just production.

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Post #: 56

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/5/2007 2:14:34 AM

sPzAbt653

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Telumar,

Thanks again for the great info, especially that about loading a turn into the editor.

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Post #: 57

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/5/2007 2:52:58 AM

larryfulkerson

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I'm not for sure positive but I don't think a person can edit a *.sal file. I know you used to be able to do that with COW but I'm thinking T3 "fixed" that so that you couldn't. Cheat possibility don't you see.

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Post #: 58

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/5/2007 5:06:45 AM

sPzAbt653

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Thanks Mr. Fulkerson, I have already decided not to mess with it. The editor has been very nice to me and I don't want to give her reason to go psychotic on me!

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Post #: 59

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/5/2007 7:43:44 PM

Karri

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_armored_fighting_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II

Any other sites for production figures?

Anyways according to that site, the Soviet production figures for tanks are a bit off. Not just a bit off, actualy way off in some perspectives. I have to check my calculations actually...but if it's not because of the calculatiosn the Soviets are receiving too many tanks.

For example T-70 in FitE has production of about 28 000 while according to the site only about 8000 were produced.

Of course this could be because of grouping multiple tank types as one.

Same seems to go with aircraft, some are built up to three times the amount...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aircraft_of_the_Soviet_Union_and_the_CIS

(in reply to sPzAbt653)

Post #: 60