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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> RE: Buzz's Fite Mod

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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/6/2007 1:42:22 PM

SMK-at-work

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_armored_fighting_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II

Any other sites for production figures?

Yes the RKKA site has a lot of production figures, including totals by tank type per factory -

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons.htm - look under "Other articles and tables"

Tank production by factory is at http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/weapons/afv_production.htm#tspplants - note that some plants get mentioned twice - once in their pre-war location, once after they were moved, eg plant 183 (Kharkov to Nizhniy Tagil), and 174 (Lenningrad to Omsk). Further down the page is monthly produiction of type per factory for T34's and some other types.

one of the things Buz has been trying to work around is that there were, for example, no tank factories in Minsk or Kiev - hence tank production should not drop when those cities are lost - but it should drop an awful lot more if you take Leningrad before the factory gets moved....in fact the only tank factories that were captured/destroyed were those in Stalingrad - all the other ones were evacuated.

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 5/6/2007 1:46:22 PM >

(in reply to Karri)

Post #: 61

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/7/2007 9:51:28 PM

Zort

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

re: 22. Changed Soviet production: 200% on turn 48, 150% on turn 78.

Is the 150% on turn 78 in addition to the 150% in 1944? Or does it replace it?

Thanks.

It's in addition. The designers increased soviet production on turn 48 by 294%. Using this number and based on historical production the soviets will product about the same number of equipment as they did historically. But if you look at the historical production increases 1942 shows and increase over the second 6 months about twice over the first 6 months. I felt that having the soviet production explode on one turn vice growing rapidly over time was not correct.

Don't forget that the soviet production goes up again around turn 330 I think.

I do think we can get really caught up in numbers of stuff vice tactics. Just because someone product a zillion somethings doesn't mean they knew how to use them properly. So the tweaking with shock or some other attribute I feel is necessary to offset the numbers of equipment produced.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)

Post #: 62

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/7/2007 10:02:05 PM

Zort

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On production: the scenario DNO does a neat job of production. The soviet player can elect to move them or not based on when he thinks they might get overrun. But since DNO is only 70 turns long they don't come back online so it's a loss of production vice just moving them. Since the soviet counter limit is maxed out in FITE I can't create production units like DNO. I also like the DNO axis victory process, if certain areas fall too soon then the axis get more points thus get closer to an auto victory. This is a very good way of hampering the soviet runaway defense.

I did a quick comparison of lend lease arrivals and what arrives in FITE and the numbers are close. But if the german does not take all the production cities by the historical times then the production numbers go up, this pertains to everything.

On rail repair (axis): It's too easy for the germans to line up 6 or 7 or 8 repair guys and convert the rail but since there are no political or other handicaps I have reasoned that this is an area of offset. Since the soviets can run back to a decent river line to defend and give up vast tracks of land that politically they wouldn't have then the germans can fix that one rail line to bring supplies to that area of the front.

I really would like to see repair units that have to stay on the rail line but can move that one hex to repair. On my wish list.

< Message edited by Zort -- 5/7/2007 10:05:40 PM >

(in reply to Zort)

Post #: 63

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/7/2007 10:32:05 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort
I really would like to see repair units that have to stay on the rail line...

Hey, that's a good idea....rail repair unit that move by rail. Cool. Are you going to mod your FitE to model this idea?

(in reply to Zort)

Post #: 64

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 1:03:23 AM

Telumar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort

On production: the scenario DNO does a neat job of production. The soviet player can elect to move them or not based on when he thinks they might get overrun. But since DNO is only 70 turns long they don't come back online so it's a loss of production vice just moving them. Since the soviet counter limit is maxed out in FITE I can't create production units like DNO. I also like the DNO axis victory process, if certain areas fall too soon then the axis get more points thus get closer to an auto victory. This is a very good way of hampering the soviet runaway defense.

There are a lot of NKVD regiments. I don't know how they operated historically, but maybe they could be merged to bigger formations, Brigades or Divisions? Add the MP battalions to the Army and Front Headquarters and you should have several dozen free slots for production units.
If you ever incooperate 'factory move TOs' i suggest to drop rail capacity by a reasonable degree the following turn and let it go up again one or two turns later.

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Post #: 65

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 1:26:02 AM

SMK-at-work

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Err...the soviets giving up "vast tracks of land that politically they wouldn't have" is pretty much nonsense - it was taken from them! Remember the dates those cities fell - mink T3, Smolensk T8

the southern cities longer but only because of the effort that was put into caturing up to Smlensk - then they swung south - up until the southern swing the Axis had only advanced as far as Tarnapol in the Ukraine - in FITE they can normally keep the southern advance in line with the northern one and take Kiev by T10-13 instead of 27.

In fact the Axis player almost alwys carried out this optimum strategy and I see no reason why hte Soviet should be unished for carrying out the onely sensible response given the way he's already shackled by things like losing tank production when non-tank producing cities are lost, by random freezing of armies due low shock and the like!

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Post #: 66

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 1:29:24 AM

larryfulkerson

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Karri is doing pretty well in the south of Russia and it's only 21DEC41. I'd say Karri is following the Axis doctrine by pushing almost everywhere simultaneously.

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Post #: 67

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 1:43:56 AM

SMK-at-work

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The axis couldn't do that tho - they had to pick and choose where to push - even in 1941 - they couldn't attack both north and south of hte Prippet Marshes - they attacked north, took Smolensk, then swung south to capture Kiev.

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Post #: 68

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 1:55:24 AM

Zort

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Err...the soviets giving up "vast tracks of land that politically they wouldn't have" is pretty much nonsense - it was taken from them!� Remember the dates those cities fell - mink T3, Smolensk T8

the southern cities longer but only because of the effort that was put into caturing up to Smlensk - then they swung south - up until the southern swing the Axis had only advanced as far as Tarnapol in the Ukraine - in FITE they can normally keep the southern advance in line with the northern one and take Kiev by T10-13 instead of 27.

In fact the Axis player almost alwys carried out this optimum strategy and I see no reason why hte Soviet should be unished for carrying out the onely sensible response given the way he's already shackled by things like losing tank production when non-tank producing cities are lost, by random�freezing of armies due low shock and the like!

I always love this arguement. In fact in the game between SMK and me, he did not reinforce the frontier units in the south but started a line at the Dnepr. Could he have pushed guys forward, yes but piecemeal since the rail capacity is less in my mod then in the stock game.

Whereas Karri pulled his forces back such that it took me 5 to 8 turns to get to them. He gave up all the urkraine, everything south of the Luga line and west of smolensk. So he gave up just about everything the germans took historically by oct.

Remember the soviets did hold out longer in the south historically and the germans bypassed Kiev with their armor to surround the soviets at Ulman. The soviets didn't give up the Ukraine as has been done in both the games I am playing now. The Germans couldn't take Kiev with their inf and the soviets gave them the opportunity to surround them. I don't see the massive armies being surrounded very often in FITE. It does happen though. Most of the time once the soviets have dugin the game becomes WW1, who can attrite who based on the production system. Which did happen historically and the germans lost. But the soviets still lost thousands which was based on their strategy and capabilities.

I don't see the soviets being punished either for doing the best strategy for them. But once we launch into comparing the game to what historically happened we then have to balance the game. On paper there is no way the germans can win and I bet most players stop at the first cease fire since the germans didn't get to moscow. There are a few games that go on but I bet not many. So if the soviets want to fall back to the furthest defensible terrian then fine, but then the germans should be able to get back into supply much more quickly so they if they punch a hole then it will be much more devasating then historically, ie the germans might win.

But SMK concerning tank production, FITE models that fact that if the germans take all the production centers/cities that were taken historically the soviets still get the same number of tanks they got historically. So there is nothing wrong with that. I can see your arguement if the germans take most of the cities in FITE then soviet production goes south. Changing the production system should not will really change the number of soviet tanks produced. If I remember the numbers correctly the soviets doubled their tank production in the first 6 months of 42 compared to all of 41 then doubled it again in the last 6 months.

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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 1:56:55 AM

Zort

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort
I really would like to see repair units that have to stay on the rail line...

Hey, that's a good idea....rail repair unit that move by rail. Cool. Are you going to mod your FitE to model this idea?

Can't do that with TOAW3. Rail units have to stay on the rail and if there is no rail then they can't move into the hex. So a new unit has to be designed into the game that allows for travel only on rail lines there or not there.

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Post #: 70

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 2:06:04 AM

Zort

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

There are a lot of NKVD regiments. I don't know how they operated historically, but maybe they could be merged to bigger formations, Brigades or Divisions? Add the MP battalions to the Army and Front Headquarters and you should have several dozen free slots for production units.
If you ever incooperate 'factory move TOs' i suggest to drop rail capacity by a reasonable degree the following turn and let it go up again one or two turns later.

This could be done but that will take away the ants the soviet player needs. And I can hear the soviet players screaming now about the germans having their ants and they don't have theirs.

There are enough complaints now that the soviets can't break down whereas the germans can.

For moving the factories I would hope to figure out a way to make the factory units weigh a lot so they take up the rail capacity. But your suggestion will probably have to be the way to do it.

I also want to separate the inf squads from the other equipment. Similiar to another game on the east front that has units come in that are disbanded to fill the available pools. This is where I would need a lot of units, have to find my notes on how many extra units I would need.

< Message edited by Zort -- 5/8/2007 2:08:53 AM >

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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 6:02:07 AM

sPzAbt653

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Thanks for the clarification. I love this scenario and appreciate all the time you and the original designers have put in. Prior to my getting TOAW III, I was using Barbarossa in COW as a template to make a full length scenario, and I am glad after 3 months of working on that I found Fite. When I come across good info/modifications, like your stuff, I like to incorporate them into 'my' Fite.

Since I did do some changes to the rail repair in COW, I thought I would mention this. With auto-repair set to a positive value, the game will repair some broken rail lines each turn. As I'm not a designer, I'm not sure, but I think that it starts with those located nearest rail repair units (maybe, I think). If there was a repair unit that was restricted to rail movement, the game may still automatically repair broken lines adjacent to this unit. ??

As was said in another post, you can line up a bunch of rail units and keep the Germans in good shape in specific areas of advance. Not sure if this was possible historically. It wasn't just rail repair, it was the complete converesion of track from 'European' gauge to 'Soviet' gauge. The Germans couldn't use any of the existing Russian tracks, sidings, turntables or repair sheds. Also, during the first winter, 80% of the German locomotives were out of action as they were not able to operate in the low temperatures. A real 'catastrophe' probably not accurately portrayed in Fite, but hey, I like to keep my Germans moving, too!

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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 6:41:57 AM

Zort

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Not sure but the game doesn't always repair the hex next to the rr repair unit. It is set for 8 for the german player now but not sure what it is for the soviets. So I guess increasing the auto repair would be an idea. Unfortunately to test that would require running the same turns over and over since there is no function to edit the game at any turn. So when I have had to test some of the events it takes hours to get to that turn to test it and if it doesn't work then I change it and start over. I can see why it took so long to put this together.

There is a good article that was mentioned before on the german rail repair. One of the biggest problems was if I remember is the lack of double tracks. I think the germans only had 3 double tracked lines when they started their retreat but not sure if I am correct on that.

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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 6:47:38 AM

SMK-at-work

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I suggested to Buz for his mod that hte RR repair units be given movement of 1 - so the only way to get them to the site requires would be by rail. For various reasons it didn't happen tho.

Certainly Rail Repair occurs near the units - hte Sov's start with 5 major areas broken - from Archangel-Murmansk, From Stalingrad-Astrakhan, betwen Leingrad & Pskov, just north ofhte Crime heading to Odessa, and south-east of Moscow.

I've had to repair these in many games & 1 RR repair unit can usually be relied upon to repair 3 hexes in a turn - the one it is on and the 2 adjacent ones.

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Post #: 74

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 9:17:29 AM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort

Not sure but the game doesn't always repair the hex next to the rr repair unit. It is set for 8 for the german player now but not sure what it is for the soviets. So I guess increasing the auto repair would be an idea. Unfortunately to test that would require running the same turns over and over since there is no function to edit the game at any turn. So when I have had to test some of the events it takes hours to get to that turn to test it and if it doesn't work then I change it and start over. I can see why it took so long to put this together.

There is a good article that was mentioned before on the german rail repair. One of the biggest problems was if I remember is the lack of double tracks. I think the germans only had 3 double tracked lines when they started their retreat but not sure if I am correct on that.

Here's what I was thinking, based on some changes I've made in the past. Fite has 30 German rail repair units and an additional 8 set on auto. That's 38 possible repairs, and alot of ants to manage. So you can knock off a bunch of the units, set the auto higher, and have a few 'rail restricted' repair units. If this is possible then you would only have a few units to be concerned with and a few main axis of advance. With the auto set higher there is good certainty the hexes nearest the repair units will be repaired. This worked well for me in COW.

Historically few of the north/south lines were operational as all resources were dedicated to the east/west lines. Few double tracks, yes, and the rail bridges over the Dneipr were all destroyed so everything had to be offloaded, ferried across, and reloaded. What fun! (Hope we are not over-analyzing). Testing is a problem in Fite, as the turns take so long. I haven't tried it on computer vs. computer. Do you know if it will run that way?

(in reply to Zort)

Post #: 75

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 3:10:17 PM

karonagames

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I write as someone who has only played 50 Turns of DNO, but also an avid follower of the FITE AARs, and I certainly intend to play FITE once my DNO game is finished.

I think that trying to integrate DNO's factory system into FITE would be a waste of effort. DNO is specifically designed to recreate the first 8 months of the war compared to the 4 years in FITE. As noted above DNO does force players to defend further forward than seems to be the case in FITE where everyone runs for the hills and a line solidifies in front of Smolensk/Kharkov/Stalino, which the axis can either break in 1941 as Karri has done in the current AAR or that can be broken in 1942 as Freeboy did in his AAR only to find the the Soviets could still savage him in the winter of 42/43. In DNO you HAVE to defend the Dneiper and the cities to the West of Stalino to prevent the automatic Axis Victory. Would FITE benefit from having a similar victory system that undermines the whole point of the game - i.e. that you can play for more than 1 year?

I'm not sure FITE needs much fixing, as it clearly reflects players skill and abilty, as the Axis can either break the Soviet line in 1941 or they can't, based on their ability to maximise combat rounds. In my current DNO game, my opponent did a great job and got 3-4 rounds per turn, and consequently he has done better than history in some sectors- although I still hold Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov by the skin of my teeth. In his previous games, he didn't achive 3-4 rounds, and ran into the Smolensk brick wall that he could not break.

Most of the modding to date seems to aimed at weakening the line that the Soviets can construct in 1941, and this is where DNO's structure differs to FITE due to having an OOB designed specifically for 8 months compared to 4 Years. FITE has to allow nearly everything to reconstitute to enable the Soviets to have anything that closely resembles their 1944/45 OOB. DNO reconstitutes far less. I do not pretend to understand the details of the reconstitution system in TOAWIII and whether designers can adjust it, but my guess is that the Soviet gets 30-50 more divisions to form his line in 1941 with FITE than he does with DNO. DNO does have more NKVD and brigade/regiment sized units to fill out the OOB but these are much weaker than the full sized units that get reconstituted in FITE.

The Soviets will always be able to salvage more troops than historically, as no one can every replicate STAVKA/Stalin's disregard for the wellbeing of their armed forces by ordering hopeless counterattacks that sacrficed units needlessly - no amount of house rules and modding can recreate this.

Remember, FITE's stated victory conditions are for Berlin to be in German Hands at the end of the game. I have only read one AAR that has played this far, and this is preceisely what the Germans achieved, but it was exteremly close, so clearly the "stock version of FITE is capable of achieving its objective without any modding. But of course we as players want to use the game to explore the gazillion "what-ifs" that have been debated by historians for the past 50 years using a game engine that has been stretched to its absolute limit, thus requiring us as players to be stretched to our limits to stand any chance of seeing if our own personal "what ifs" stand a cat in Hell's chance of being achieved. Personally I can't wait to see if FITE will allow me to follow my own personal strategy of Leningrad in 1941, Stalingrad in 1942 and Moscow in 1943. In the AARs published to date, Freeboy has achieved 2 out of the 3, and I await with interest to see how 1943 pans out. I also hope he and his opponent have the stamina to finish the game so we can analyse what impact losing Leningrad and Stalingrad might have had on the Soviet war effort.

So maybe the current modding needs find a way to handicap the Soviets by a certain amount in 1941 without handicapping its strength in 42/43/44, which is precisely what Buzz et al are trying to achieve. The first efforts clearly weakened the Soviets to much.

Maybe a simple solution is to delay some of the scheduled reinforcements in 1941 so that they are not added to the reconstituted divisions, which according to the rules re-appear 1-4 weeks after they are destroyed (page 28 para 9.1.8). Is this a true reflection of what really happened? If it actually took 3-4 months to reconstruct these divisions then the only adjustment the game engine gives us is the ability to slow down the arrival of the equivalent number of divisions that have arrived "too soon" via the reconstitution system. The reverse could apply to the losses that the Germans incur in Stalingrad and the destruction of Army Group Centre.

Obviously delaying scheduled reinforcements will not impact the overall growth in strength of the Soviet armed forces, and the long term playability of the game is not impacted. Also if the ratio of reconstituted to "scheduled" divisions is increased, the availability of replacements will have a bigger impact on the strength of the reconstituted divisions, so this may encourage players to hold on to replacement cities for longer than they do at the moment.

Just a suggestion.

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Post #: 76

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 4:22:48 PM

Karri

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One simple trick would be to set the Soviet units that are in the frontline(or nearby) at turn 1 to minimise losses and maybe even mobile(as opposed to dig in/fortified) Also the units seem to be on tactical reserve, I'd switch that to local reserve. This would allow the Axis to gain a good start and force the Soviets to use more units as speedbums/forward defense. Which in turn would mean they can't just evacuate the whole area west of Smolensk.

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Post #: 77

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 4:31:41 PM

karonagames

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Good Point. DNO has the second echelon in Local reserve, but very little actually gets pulled into contact/combat, and is therefore sent eastwards to join its reconstituted brothers.

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Post #: 78

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 6:17:42 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I haven't tried it [FITE ]on computer vs. computer. Do you know if it will run that way?

I have done a limited trial and indeed it WILL run PO vs PO but I don't know what the long term results would be. I just ran it to T10 or so. That would be a good idea to do and I'll do it and report the results. I found out by looking at the scenario dump that the objectives for the PO Soviets was Berlin and the objective for most of the PO Germans was Moscow so it seems that most of them would meet in the middle somewhere and fight to the death. I'll let you know.

Here's what I'm going to use for settings:

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 5/8/2007 6:23:54 PM >

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Post #: 79

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/8/2007 11:40:38 PM

sPzAbt653

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[/quote]

I have done a limited trial and indeed it WILL run PO vs PO but I don't know what the long term results would be. I just ran it to T10 or so. That would be a good idea to do and I'll do it and report the results. I found out by looking at the scenario dump that the objectives for the PO Soviets was Berlin and the objective for most of the PO Germans was Moscow so it seems that most of them would meet in the middle somewhere and fight to the death. I'll let you know.

[/quote]

If I was following all this correctly, I think the effect we were trying to get was to have rail units restricted to rail lines. I won't go over all that again, but if you are running a PO/PO, I think the test would be to eliminate about twenty of the 'bautrupps', change the remaining ones to an 'armored train' icon, and set the automatic rail repair value to say 25 instead of 8. I am only guessing at all this, but the new rail units should be restricted to rail lines, and the computer should automatically repair rail lines nearest these units. After a few turns we should be able to see if this is working properly, unless the new rail units go willy-nilly all over the map with their new 210 movement allowance!

Thanks Mr. Fulkerson, and if you don't want to try all that, I was intending to do it sometime in the future, as the possibilty intrigues me.

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Post #: 80

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/9/2007 12:32:38 AM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
If I was following all this correctly, I think the effect we were trying to get was to have rail units restricted to rail lines. I won't go over all that again, but if you are running a PO/PO, I think the test would be to eliminate about twenty of the 'bautrupps', change the remaining ones to an 'armored train' icon, and set the automatic rail repair value to say 25 instead of 8. I am only guessing at all this, but the new rail units should be restricted to rail lines, and the computer should automatically repair rail lines nearest these units. After a few turns we should be able to see if this is working properly, unless the new rail units go willy-nilly all over the map with their new 210 movement allowance!

Thanks Mr. Fulkerson, and if you don't want to try all that, I was intending to do it sometime in the future, as the possibilty intrigues me.

So um....this is embarrasing to admit but I don't know how to use the editor all that well and the changes you speak of are probably over my head. It's probably because I have minimal brain damage or something. Maybe I'm alergic to the evil editor. And anyway, the PO v PO contest has already started. It's on turn 3 already and it's only been running about 4 hours now. Here's the first two turns :

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 81

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/9/2007 1:08:09 AM

Zort

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Rail repair units. I like the idea of increasing the auto repair and decreasing the units. What I would like to see is auto repair by sectors, ie divided by german army groups, since there was a euro gauge rail line in the baltic states the germans only had to repair it. So have different auto settings by areas. (SMKs wish for weather/supply sectors)

The soviet rail line from archangel didn't start being built until the finns cut the rail line in the south and then it took almost a year to complete I think. (Hey SMK another house rule. The line from archangel can't be built until it is needed, ie after the Finns cut the rail line in the K.... area (forget the spelling)).

I didn't put the rail repair changes in the game because I forgot for one and hadn't really thought about it for another. If I reduced the rail units to a movement of one then I don't see this really working unless I increase the auto repair. The soviets have only a few broken rail lines so the auto is easy to see. As for the germans I often wonder where the auto repair is.

Changes to FITE, my premise has always been for two average players to be able to play it out for the entire 400 turns. I have only tried to make it a little more of what I consider historical. So far (except when I break the events) I have only played around with the early part of the war. I have been impressed with Freeboy's games and how far they have gotten. Karri is getting ready to hammer me in our game. My german losses are enormous and it's just about time for mud. SMK once pointed out that supply should be the limiting factor for the german offensive not the total depletion of the army squads. In DNO I see that the designer gave the germans a pool of 20k HRS with a 200 per turn replacement rate. This gives the germans the ability to attack longer at higher HRS strength then in FITE.

Supply question: In FITE the supply rate per hex when out of supply range is 9. Is there a way to reduce this in the editor? I was thinking of making it 1. I would like to also see is if the game could restrict replacements to units in supply not in the supply range (I think it's 12 hexes in FITE). This way when a unit is isolated but not in enemy ZOC's it then does not get replacements and supply build up is next to nil. Hope this is understandable.

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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/9/2007 3:49:29 AM

SMK-at-work

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the Soviets get 10 rail repair units - and have 100% rail destruction - so they have to repair every hex - when/if the start going on the offensive it'll be much harder for them to keep up than for het axis over a given distance.

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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/9/2007 4:56:27 AM

Zort

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And the german rail destruction goes to 100 during the winter offensive so they are equal after that. Not sure what you are saying. Fact is the rail line from archangel took a long time to build vice 4-6 turns in FITE.

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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/9/2007 5:04:19 AM

SMK-at-work

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I'm saying that he Sov's are more limited in the offense than the Axis, because they have fewer rail repair units, hence they'll be unable to keep supply up as close to teh front as the Axis can.

there's nothign much you can do about the Archangel route AFAIK - auto-repair will get it fixed sooner or later anyway. Perhaps remove the Soviet rail repair units altogether and bring them on as reinforcements might be a possibility?

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Post #: 85

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/9/2007 5:22:00 AM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

[Maybe I'm alergic to the evil editor. And anyway, the PO v PO contest has already started. It's on turn 3 already and it's only been running about 4 hours now. Here's the first two turns :

Neat. How long do you plan to let it run? I think in theory it should progress close to what happened historically. So if the Russians are in Berlin by, say, turn 150, I would think that is an indication that something is 'off'. But can you let it run on its' own for so long?

I'll try that rail repair thingy soon, it should only take 3-4 turns to see if it is working properly.

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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/9/2007 6:03:32 AM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
[Maybe I'm alergic to the evil editor. And anyway, the PO v PO contest has already started. It's on turn 3 already and it's only been running about 4 hours now. Here's the first two turns :

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Neat. How long do you plan to let it run?

Theoretically there's no limit to how long it can run since I can open another copy of TOAW to do my PBEM turns and can program ( in JAVA ) while it's still running. I'm running Windows XP Pro and my cpu has hyperthreading and so I'm not limited ( theoritically ) to how many applications are running simultaneously as long as I have the space on the hard drive for swapping in and out the code pages. I've got 750 Megs of RAM and about 60 gigs of hard drive so that shouldn't be a show-stopper either. I've let it run for about 6 hours now and it's on the sixth turn already. I've posted turns 4 and 5 below. There would be more turns but the limit is now 200KB instead of the usual 500KB.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I think in theory it should progress close to what happened historically. So if the Russians are in Berlin by, say, turn 150, I would think that is an indication that something is 'off'.

But can you let it run on its' own for so long?

Sure, I'm going to let it run all night and all day tomorrow and report back where it's at and stuff.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I'll try that rail repair thingy soon, it should only take 3-4 turns to see if it is working properly.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 5/9/2007 6:06:58 AM >

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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/9/2007 6:35:49 AM

Zort

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

I'm saying that he Sov's are more limited in the offense than the Axis, because they have fewer rail repair units, hence they'll be unable to keep supply up as close to teh front as the Axis can.

there's nothign much you can do about the Archangel route AFAIK - auto-repair will get it fixed sooner or later anyway.� Perhaps remove the Soviet rail repair units altogether and bring them on as reinforcements might be a possibility?

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Post #: 88

RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/9/2007 8:18:01 AM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort

Well we can change the auto repair but not sure if I can do it by side. Heck if we can figure out the auto thingee then we can remove most but not all the repair units. Now the player will not be in charge of what he repairs as much as he has now, boy I can hear the complaining now!!

In the event editor there is a 'rail repair 1' and a 'rail repair 2', so each side can be changed. And it can be changed by turn so it can be increased or decreased over the span of the game. I like having less rail repair to contend with but I understand some might like to be in charge of it.

The Russians never had a supply and distrubution system equal to the Germans, so the Russian offensives typically ran themselves down quicker than the Germans.

I've only found one referance to the Arkhangel rail line, in Albert Seaton's book 'The Russo-German' war he states that the Russians had already started on a Murmansk-Volkhov bypass when the Finns cut the line (in August), and the new Murmansk-Arkhangel-Moscow line was operational in November.

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RE: Buzz's Fite Mod - 5/9/2007 6:30:54 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I'll try that rail repair thingy soon, it should only take 3-4 turns to see if it is working properly.

Ok, my rail experiment didn't work. I made the changes and let it run PO/PO for 5 turns. The rail units never moved (and neither did the engineer or artillery units). I checked the rail lines crossing the border and none were repaired more than 2 hexes. I know the game wasn't designed to run this way, but I've got to get the rail units moving to see if this mod works. I think I will start another game with myself as the Germans and just play the first few turns, concentrating on clearing the rail lines of Russians and then seeing if I move the rail units will they function as desired. The other option is experimenting with the support levels and orders (the units are set to Free support with Attack orders) but that doesn't sound like much fun. Maybe one of the designers will see this and can sugest a proper combination of support level and orders to keep these types of units moving calmly behind the advancing front line troops!

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