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RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets sail

 
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RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 8/29/2006 11:22:38 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace
6.) Activation scheme. At least in my experience, I don't really see it as a problem. The transfer utility thingy might be a bugger, but barring that I don't see how it is any different from a matrix serial number.


Just a small question to highlight the difference between server activation and a serial number :
Let's just suppose Mr. Koger's previous game had server activation - could you give me the url of the TalonSoft activation server ?

Server activation means you haven't bought a game you can install irrespective of whether the publisher is still around or not, you've *rented* a game for as long as the company who produced the game keeps their activation server running. That's fine for a game-of-the-month FPS but if you routinely install wargames from a previous decade ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Correct. However, from their website's FAQ section:

quote:

Q. What happens if Storm Eagle Studios goes out of Business?
A. In the unlikely event that Storm Eagle Studios goes out of business, most likely it’s the end of the world. In the event we do go belly up, we will most likely release a final code update to remove the copy protection from the game.


So, that eventuality is, in theory, already planned for. It isn't a firm contract admittedly, but it seems to me they have at least thought of what to do should that happen.


Problem here : when TalonSoft went under Mr. Koger had a final patch all wrapped-up and ready to be released ... but wasn't allowed to for legal reasons. See, a company that goes out of business doesn't own their assets (like games, patches, ...) any more, they're not theirs to give away. If they go out of business (which may be unlikely) there's a better than even chance you'll never see that patch.

I'd replace "most likely" with "we will do our best, but it's out of our hands" for a more accurate description of where you'd stand as a consumer. But that would probably scare away some customers.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 61
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 8/30/2006 5:16:44 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Correct. However, from their website's FAQ section:

quote:

Q. What happens if Storm Eagle Studios goes out of Business?
A. In the unlikely event that Storm Eagle Studios goes out of business, most likely it’s the end of the world. In the event we do go belly up, we will most likely release a final code update to remove the copy protection from the game.


So, that eventuality is, in theory, already planned for. It isn't a firm contract admittedly, but it seems to me they have at least thought of what to do should that happen.


There may be one scenario in many where this could happen (circumstances allow for protection removal). The fact remains that so long as this sort of copy protection exists on the product, you stand to lose your game as soon as you uninstall the program for whatever reason.

(in reply to Tankerace)
Post #: 62
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 8/30/2006 5:18:39 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		So does that mean that it's not enough to just re-enter your activation code? You know this for sure?

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Post #: 63
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 8/30/2006 11:56:12 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
So does that mean that it's not enough to just re-enter your activation code? You know this for sure?


Yup, "activation" implies connection to a server on the 'Net for verification. If that server isn't there anymore you're out of luck - permanently.

A serial number verification system - like that used by Matrix - means you'll be able to install TOAW 3 on Windows 2050 if the OS is backward compatibility - more likely you'll be using a WinXP emulator like you're using DosBox now for Dos programs.

If longetivity of a game is no concern than it's all moot of course.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 64
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 8/31/2006 12:19:13 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Well, obviously... My point was that if I uninstall the game, I should still be able to re-install, provided that Storm Eagle is still running...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of this scheme...

_____________________________

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Post #: 65
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 8/31/2006 11:20:51 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Well, obviously... My point was that if I uninstall the game, I should still be able to re-install, provided that Storm Eagle is still running...


As good a synopsis of activation as I've ever read

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of this scheme...


Me neither. For most gamers it's an extra factor in the buy/no buy decision making process. There are those games you wanna have no matter what and there I would cave in and accept activation, but for games where I'm a bit on the fence it's a deal breaker. Distant Guns is in the latter category for me so it's their loss.

Activation may be relatively new in the wargame world, in the business software world it's pretty much old hat. Corporate IT guys like me hate it with a vengeance. This year alone it has forced me to work during a whole weekend because corporate guidelines prohibited a connection from a particular database server whereas the database software insisted on activation. Smart software companies already realize this, that's why M$ has a "corporate" WinXP version : that's a regular XP Pro with the activation part removed.

I'm having none of that in my own free time if I can help it.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 66
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 8/31/2006 2:47:25 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline 		I don't have the game, but my understanding from the cryptic information that arises from forum discussions is that once you "activate" your game, you must use the license transfer utility to install the game after activation. IOW, there's no "reactivation" if you uninstall. You can only activate once. If you fail to make your transfer disk (whether due to hard drive failure or merely forgetting you have a game that requires you to make a transfer disk), uninstalling the game will destroy your "license". At that point, you must go begging SES to let you activate again somehow, if they're still in existence.

If someone has better information, I'd like to hear it insofar as this scheme is the primary, but not only, barrier to my purchase of this software. When I buy entertainment software, I do not wish to have a forced, continuing relationship with the company selling it. I want to own the thing, with the ability to download and save patches for it on my own machine. With activation, I am tied to the issuer for the life of the program and my use of it remains at the issuer's sufferance.

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 67
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 8/31/2006 5:06:57 PM   
martxyz

 

Posts: 194
Joined: 1/29/2005
From: Broughton, Northants, UK
Status: offline 		As I understand it, the "Free Campaign" bundle ends today, unless the "offer has been extended. This would make the "Game" plus the "Campaign" together cost $90 US. People are, as far as I can tell, having problems in deciding whether to purchase. Usually this is a straightforward matter. But, as it stands, it appears people are being invited to purchase a game with less than a day left, in order to get the "free" campaign, at a time when many people who bought it seem to feel the campaign is very buggy. Those who only have the demo, haven't played the campaign at all. I suspect that the customer relations aspect to this is a little misjudged, especially as, in order to purchase you are permanently tied to the developers, which you may not be overly impressed with, for a variety of reasons. The pressurizing of the potential customer to buy quickly, in order to get the campaign "free", when the campaign seems to be the most significant part of the game, and reportedly has problems, and then making the game permanently tied to Storm Eagle, who can then develop it or not develop it as they choose, just doesn't "feel right" somehow.

So 9 hours left - will I or won't I? The tension is killing me.

(in reply to Capitaine)
Post #: 68
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 8/31/2006 6:31:58 PM   
liuzg150181


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Well, obviously... My point was that if I uninstall the game, I should still be able to re-install, provided that Storm Eagle is still running...


As good a synopsis of activation as I've ever read

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of this scheme...


Me neither. For most gamers it's an extra factor in the buy/no buy decision making process. There are those games you wanna have no matter what and there I would cave in and accept activation, but for games where I'm a bit on the fence it's a deal breaker. Distant Guns is in the latter category for me so it's their loss.

Activation may be relatively new in the wargame world, in the business software world it's pretty much old hat. Corporate IT guys like me hate it with a vengeance. This year alone it has forced me to work during a whole weekend because corporate guidelines prohibited a connection from a particular database server whereas the database software insisted on activation. Smart software companies already realize this, that's why M$ has a "corporate" WinXP version : that's a regular XP Pro with the activation part removed.

I'm having none of that in my own free time if I can help it.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx


Count me in amongst those against activation scheme,it feels like i dont really own the game and that i have the game company as my liege.
Matrix's activation is another thing,i can be activated w/o internet connection to Matrix's website/server and it seems that the serial number is meant to tally with the algorithm embedded in the executed file.

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Post #: 69
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 9/1/2006 11:01:18 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		Software companies seem to have forgotten that the customer is always right. Don't punish the legitimate purchasers with unwieldy activation schemes that feel like serfdom.

I won't be purchasing this game as the whole affair has an unpleasant odour to it. And I was pretty keen when I saw it being developed too.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to liuzg150181)
Post #: 70
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 9/3/2006 5:54:56 PM   
FreeBird


Posts: 15
Joined: 8/11/2002
From: Albuquerque, NM
Status: offline 		I have DG and have been having a blast with it! It started out badly, but SES has been very responsive to fixing the major show stoppers. Now at v1.017 the game plays pretty solidly and I haven't had an major complaints with it. There are still minor things that need to be fixed, and items that are on everyoone's wishlist. I have no doubt that they will get fixed or implemented.

The activation scheme isn't any more of a hassle than using Microsoft's activation scheme for XP or MS Office. Once your game is activated you no longer need to be connected to the internet, except for checking for updates. You are able to move the license around quite easily from desktop to laptop with the license transfer utility and do not need to be connected to the internet to run the game.

Regards..

< Message edited by FreeBird -- 9/3/2006 6:25:03 PM >

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(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 71
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/18/2007 10:19:42 PM   
Tophat1815

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		I just recently found the demo for DG and was impressed by it. Sadly my tactics seem to have been a chronicle of what not to do as I lost all 3 Russian cruisers to the Japanese.

Is anyone still playing this this game? Has anyone had much luck or fun with the current version of the campaign?

(in reply to FreeBird)
Post #: 72
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/18/2007 11:16:22 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		It's pretty boring... I'm moderately intrigued by the announcement of the next part of the series, but it'll have to be MUCH more interesting than DG...

_____________________________

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Post #: 73
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 12:01:05 AM   
Procrustes

 

Posts: 633
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From: Upstate
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

I just recently found the demo for DG and was impressed by it. Sadly my tactics seem to have been a chronicle of what not to do as I lost all 3 Russian cruisers to the Japanese.

Is anyone still playing this this game? Has anyone had much luck or fun with the current version of the campaign?



Are they still using the same "purchase activation system"?

(I'll pay a good buck for software, but that's a deal breaker for me.)

(in reply to Tophat1815)
Post #: 74
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 12:05:17 AM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		DG is a very good game, but apparently with a maccarone code. When something is fixed, something else is broken. 

_____________________________

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The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 75
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 12:07:47 AM   
Terminus


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Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Procrustes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

I just recently found the demo for DG and was impressed by it. Sadly my tactics seem to have been a chronicle of what not to do as I lost all 3 Russian cruisers to the Japanese.

Is anyone still playing this this game? Has anyone had much luck or fun with the current version of the campaign?



Are they still using the same "purchase activation system"?

(I'll pay a good buck for software, but that's a deal breaker for me.)


Yes, they are...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 76
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 1:46:18 AM   
Tophat1815

 

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hmmmn,
           So the campaign,GUI and tech support are not enough to make the game attractive? I also find the payment method less than optimal,but the period and Norm being a designer/develper has me thinking hard on it.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 77
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 12:22:55 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812
hmmmn,
           So the campaign,GUI and tech support are not enough to make the game attractive?


What tech support ?

Seriously - it took them 15 (fifteen) days to answer a poster's simple question if it runs on Vista or not on the only forum they ever visit.

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/distant-guns/66867-vista-compatibility.html

On April 10th they released patch 50 which - as per their default - broke something else : torpedo ranges. People have been asking when this new bug will be fixed - no answer yet.

Zeus help the gamer who's got a *real* problem with that level of tech support ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Tophat1815)
Post #: 78
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 5:33:20 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

What tech support ?



Good Question.

Last August I downloaded the first demo and the game's EXE turned off/disconnected my hard-drive, twice, once each time that I tried to fight a battle. I visited the SES website looking for tech support and found none, no useful FAQ or forum, nothing. Then I Google'd the game and ended up at the AG forum, where I was told by a game reviewer that there was something wrong with my system. I guess the guy didn't realize that I was a veteran beta-tester for both game developers and Nvidia, and that I run just about every piece of gaming software around, typically without issue.

Anyway...

About a month later, I downloaded a second demo. This second EXE resolved the hard-drive issue, but it was chugging along and the game froze several times. While I was actually able to play the battle to conclusion a couple of times, the game appeared unstable and my sound card kept my speakers poppping. Well, guys, I followed the routine above once more, and, once again, the developer/publisher website provided no relief. This time, however, Google sent me to the SZO forums.

Apart from the treatment being meted out to disgruntled visitors by a hyper-sensitive little scrum of community "insiders," game reviewer included, I discovered that there was NO TECHNICAL SUPPORT, whatsoever, for DG, at least not in the conventional sense. Folks who were having trouble with the game were directed to email the offending file(s) to the developer for perusal and repair. For the uninitiated, that's EXACTLY what a beta-tester does for a developer. It's also worth noting that, from patch to patch, the bugs and fixes weren't being publicly documented. Folks were just throwing darts into space as they sent in those files. IIRC, the game was on version #13 at that time. It's currently up to version #50, and is broken, yet again.

Okay, so much for the "cultural problems" with the developer and their approach to the public and their products. The truth is, I never purchased the game, because of my experience with the demos. I can, however, offer some brief criticism of the game, albeit limited to the battle that I was able to complete with the second demo.

The tactical/battle portion of Distant Guns is little more than a 3D version of this:

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/NavCamp/Tsushima/tsushima.html

If you're truly wowed by 3D graphics, if that's what floats your pre-dreadnought, then you're gonna be mighty happy with DG. Apart from that, however, Koger's game is just as boring as Tiller's. There's nothing to do. You just sail around with the camera and watch the battle. Simple battle functions, such as torpedo work, are out of your hands. And, in that Tiller's includes a 2D map to plot movement on, I consider his work superior.

The game desperately needed:

1) a 2D map for accurate movement plotting. The GUI for plotting movement of TF and individual ships is clumsy, and most damningly, hopelessly imprecise. Players shouldn't lose games because of klunky interfaces, IMO.

2) A bridge view with some nice binoculars would go a long way in introducing some effective FOW into the battles, not to mention the immersiveness that's sorely lacking in the game.

3) Full player control of guns and torpedo directors and targeting.

That's a brief list of things that would have to be included before I would consider taking a second look at Distant Guns, from Storm Eagle Studios, or any other game based on the same engine, for that matter. As for the "tech support" which Eddy alludes to, I'd NEVER buy a game from an outfit that operates like SES, in that regard. You just can't treat people like that and expect them to buy your games.

PoE




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Post #: 79
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 6:49:04 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
The tactical/battle portion of Distant Guns is little more than a 3D version of this:

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/NavCamp/Tsushima/tsushima.html

If you're truly wowed by 3D graphics, if that's what floats your pre-dreadnought, then you're gonna be mighty happy with DG. Apart from that, however, Koger's game is just as boring as Tiller's. There's nothing to do. You just sail around with the camera and watch the battle. Simple battle functions, such as torpedo work, are out of your hands. And, in that Tiller's includes a 2D map to plot movement on, I consider his work superior.


I will not defend many many aspects of DG (marketing, distribution scheme, tech support, community service, price etc etc) but this I cannot let pass!

DG is about bazillion times better, more detailed, more realistic than any of the HPS naval games.

I also find it more enjoyable, although this is subjective.



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Post #: 80
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 6:56:20 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I will not defend many many aspects of DG (marketing, distribution scheme, tech support, community service, price etc etc) but this I cannot let pass!

DG is about bazillion times better, more detailed, more realistic than any of the HPS naval games.

I also find it more enjoyable, although this is subjective.


Agreed. Some strong opinions based on the demo only...

_____________________________

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The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

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(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 81
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 7:29:03 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
The tactical/battle portion of Distant Guns is little more than a 3D version of this:

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/NavCamp/Tsushima/tsushima.html

If you're truly wowed by 3D graphics, if that's what floats your pre-dreadnought, then you're gonna be mighty happy with DG. Apart from that, however, Koger's game is just as boring as Tiller's. There's nothing to do. You just sail around with the camera and watch the battle. Simple battle functions, such as torpedo work, are out of your hands. And, in that Tiller's includes a 2D map to plot movement on, I consider his work superior.


I will not defend many many aspects of DG (marketing, distribution scheme, tech support, community service, price etc etc) but this I cannot let pass!

DG is about bazillion times better, more detailed, more realistic than any of the HPS naval games.

I also find it more enjoyable, although this is subjective.



@Oleg,

Every EFFECTIVE naval simulation and/or wargame that I've ever played, devoted to task force level combat, has employed a 2D map for plotting moves, PERIOD. I know of no exceptions to this. It's worth noting that, in real life, ship movement has traditionally been tracked on such maps, whether it be on the old-fashioned, paper kind, or on a high-tech display in a modern combat information center. And while a lot of folks will indeed by wowed by the graphics in Distant Guns, there's simply nothing else going on, excepting a couple of lines of ships plinking away at one another. It's like watching paint dry on a wall. And I'd assert that modern game designs have to offer more, or else they will fail.

PoE



_____________________________

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Post #: 82
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 7:35:52 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
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From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke
Agreed. Some strong opinions based on the demo only...

Yes, indeed, and thank goodness for the demo. I normally do all that I can to support fledgling developers, but the ONLY thing that this company did right was give folks a taste of the real-deal prior to making an otherwise ill-advised purchase. And if anyone out there wants to shell out eighty-bucks to be a beta-tester, then, by all means, have at it, you've found yourself a home.

PoE

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Post #: 83
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 7:52:37 PM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
Well...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
1) a 2D map for accurate movement plotting. The GUI for plotting movement of TF and individual ships is clumsy, and most damningly, hopelessly imprecise. Players shouldn't lose games because of klunky interfaces, IMO.


That's a strange opinion since the interface is not clumsy at all, and I fail to see why it need more precision. Your opinion seems to based only on the fact that there are no 2D maps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
2) A bridge view with some nice binoculars would go a long way in introducing some effective FOW into the battles, not to mention the immersiveness that's sorely lacking in the game.


Since I find the game to be very immersive and its campaign very addictive, I have no idea how some binoculars would help. OK, it would be nice to have a binocular view, but it would be chrome only. I see no problem with the FOW at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
3) Full player control of guns and torpedo directors and targeting.


Personally I don't like the idea of more micromanagement (in any wargame ever), but I understand the desire for more control over those poor pre-dreadnought torpedoes.


_____________________________

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The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 84
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 9:25:14 PM   
Tophat1815

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke
Agreed. Some strong opinions based on the demo only...

Yes, indeed, and thank goodness for the demo. I normally do all that I can to support fledgling developers, but the ONLY thing that this company did right was give folks a taste of the real-deal prior to making an otherwise ill-advised purchase. And if anyone out there wants to shell out eighty-bucks to be a beta-tester, then, by all means, have at it, you've found yourself a home.

PoE


Well the $60.00 bundle is still listed and they just announced Jutland as the new game to be released.

http://www.stormeaglestudios.com/public/html/se_Jutland.html

As regards the demo I have played it once and enjoyed it as the Russian. I was simply interested to hear from people about the campaign and their overall satisfaction with the game.Yes i enjoy the graphic eye candy. Also I play WiTp so I don't suffer from short attention-span syndrome.

About marketing and distribution I agree that SES is shooting themselves in both feet. Personally I would have thought if Norm wanted to sell games he might have approached Matrix or another distributor but such is life.

As to patching policy at least they went through 50 patch/fixes there are game companies out there that do a "one patch" fix-all policy and walk out the door with your $.

Lack of a dedicated forum also seems a blunder for SES.

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 85
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 9:51:45 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
Every EFFECTIVE naval simulation and/or wargame that I've ever played, devoted to task force level combat, has employed a 2D map for plotting moves, PERIOD.


Name a few.

I could name some - for ME - very good or excellent naval games on tactical or simulation level that employ 3D and do that very effectivelly. Dangerous Waters, Silent Hunter 1-4, Battlestations Midway (OK this one is "lite" and arcadish, but it's not 3D that makes is automatically arcadish), Distant Guns, Fleet Command, Fighting Steel.... all 3D.

Except for Battlestations Midway all those games are pretty hardcore in their approach to realism etc.

3D is just a harmless eye candy, there is nothing inherent in 3D that would automatically make the game less realistic or more stupid or shallow. It may help to make the game more approachable, or it may not, but there is nothing bad in trying to add this additional "layer" to the game.

quote:

I know of no exceptions to this. It's worth noting that, in real life, ship movement has traditionally been tracked on such maps, whether it be on the old-fashioned, paper kind, or on a high-tech display in a modern combat information center. And while a lot of folks will indeed by wowed by the graphics in Distant Guns, there's simply nothing else going on, excepting a couple of lines of ships plinking away at one another. It's like watching paint dry on a wall. And I'd assert that modern game designs have to offer more, or else they will fail.


Your criticims are pretty vague IMO. "Modern game designs need to offer more" - more of what, in your opinion? One thing that I'd personally like to see in DG is player-managed damage control (as in Silent Hunter 3-4 or even already mentioned arcadish BSM - which has excellent implementation of player-controlled DC).

Besides, since you argue for 2D games that simulate "real life ship movement tracking" you will agree that in real life there is "simply nothing else going on" as you say.... do you mean to say all naval sims and tactical games are inherently boring?

_____________________________


(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 86
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/19/2007 10:53:06 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
Every EFFECTIVE naval simulation and/or wargame that I've ever played, devoted to task force level combat, has employed a 2D map for plotting moves, PERIOD.


Name a few.

I could name some - for ME - very good or excellent naval games on tactical or simulation level that employ 3D and do that very effectivelly. Dangerous Waters, Silent Hunter 1-4, Battlestations Midway (OK this one is "lite" and arcadish, but it's not 3D that makes is automatically arcadish), Distant Guns, Fleet Command, Fighting Steel.... all 3D.


Oleg, I'm kind of surprised by this response. Pardon me, if I don't quote myself, but I didn't say that 3D is a problem. I do insist, however, that a 2D map is a necessity for plotting the movements of a task force. Dangerous Waters, SHx, Fleet Command, the Harpoon series, and many others ALL had a 2D, overhead map upon which to plot movement. I traded in my copy of "Farting Steel" at EB, btw, after SSI abandoned it. I guess I have a bit of an attitude about developers and publishers dropping unfinished wares on me, but I'm not alone in that regard.

Now, let me digress for a moment...

Do you want to know what the real problem is with ***almost*** all of these games that are being published today, ones that might hold your interest or mine? Well, the truth is that a segment of the computer gaming industry that used to routinely generate sales in the six-figure range, rarely sees sales in five-figures, now. And along with the EVAPORATION of all that revenue, went the resources, talent and business culture that might otherwise sustain even the smallest, most modest of development houses.

The money for production and programming and the will to "do it right," simply are no longer there in many instances. And when enough corners get cut, the unfortunate progeny is typically no "keeper," if you get my drift. I don't particularly enjoy outlining the particulars of this situation, BTW. I find it all kind of depressing, given what my expectations were ten years ago. But, I'm too old to countenance painting lipstick on a pig. You see, I don't suffer mendacity well, either.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 87
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/20/2007 1:44:24 AM   
JJKettunen


Posts: 3530
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Sorry, but that sounds bullshit to me. 

_____________________________

Jyri Kettunen

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 88
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/20/2007 1:51:02 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Don't apologize... It IS...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to JJKettunen)
Post #: 89
RE: Norm Koger's Distant Guns: Russo-Japanese War sets ... - 5/20/2007 2:46:48 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I shall catalog both of those comments under my list of "deep thoughts," and commend you both for using the spell-checker before posting. Those multi-syllabic words can be a real challenge.

PoE


_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 90
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