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Convoy Routes - 5/21/2007 8:57:36 PM   
Schlussel


Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		Hi, I am fairly new to the Witp forum....this is my first post.
Anywhoo, I looked through the must read threads and still had a question:

-How do you manually select convoy routes? I am shipping supplies from the west coast to P.Moresby and the darn convoys want to pass right through the japanese air cover. I usually just have them go to Efate or something (with do not unload selected...I learned the hard way) and then continue to PM, but this is a bit of a hassle. Don't get me wrong, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE micromanagement, but I was wondering if any of you knew of an easier way.

Thanks in advance,

Eric
Post #: 1
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/21/2007 9:00:13 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Welcome aboard.

Unfortunately, the program is pretty stupid when it comes to routing convoys. You can't get around steering them yourself.

A technique used by more than a few players is to load up a convoy, set it's destination port as it's home port and give it a destination hex in the middle of the ocean, out of enemy air range. When it gets there, it'll automatically proceed to where you want it to go.

All part of the reason why no hard-core WitP player has any social life...

< Message edited by Terminus -- 5/21/2007 9:02:33 PM >

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RE: Convoy Routes - 5/21/2007 9:01:29 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Welcome!  You can set one waypoint.  Set the destination hex somewhere in the SW Pacific and the home port Pt. Moresby.  That way the convoy will avoid the Japanese.  As an alternative, you can set destinations to various islands along the way.  This works well, but you have to keep track of the convoys.

(in reply to Schlussel)
Post #: 3
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/21/2007 9:53:50 PM   
Schlussel


Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		Thanks guys. That is quite a good workaround. This is why I am such a fan of this game, it's the support. I have been playing Witp for a year now, and have pretty much found and answer to everything I ever wanted to know on these message boards. (Except for the whole "Chicken or the Egg?" question...what a doozie).

Okay I got another one:

Is there an easy way to know if a group of LCU's will fit in a convoy?
It's simple if your convoy is made up of only AP's, but say there is a combo of AP's, AK's and LCI's...
It seems like when you load them, the screen only displays the total in AP size not AK or whatever. A couple times the screen says the Land units will fit...and then I find that a fragment of one of the units is left behind a couple days after the convoy leaves port.

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 4
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/21/2007 9:57:21 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Nope, no easy ways. It comes down to experience, I'm afraid. You can more or less forget what it says in the load coast category; that's only the roughest of guidelines. The one thing you CAN be sure of is that it'll be more than what it says. I usually go for 140-150% of what it says in load cost, and occasionally leave a fragment behind...

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Post #: 5
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/21/2007 9:59:34 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Schlussel

Thanks guys. That is quite a good workaround. This is why I am such a fan of this game, it's the support. I have been playing Witp for a year now, and have pretty much found and answer to everything I ever wanted to know on these message boards. (Except for the whole "Chicken or the Egg?" question...what a doozie).

Okay I got another one:

Is there an easy way to know if a group of LCU's will fit in a convoy?
It's simple if your convoy is made up of only AP's, but say there is a combo of AP's, AK's and LCI's...
It seems like when you load them, the screen only displays the total in AP size not AK or whatever. A couple times the screen says the Land units will fit...and then I find that a fragment of one of the units is left behind a couple days after the convoy leaves port.




I don't mix apples and oranges when i load convoys ...
1st I create an all AP TF load what troops I can, then I create an AK force and load what i can then if I need to I merge the two TF's into one...

Also by using this great mathemetical trick i learned in elementray school of guestimating...If I look at a LCU and I see that it will take 5000 AP or 30,000 AK to load ... I know that if I only have 2500 AP (50% of the required) I will then need about 15,000 AK (50%) to complete the load...

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Post #: 6
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/21/2007 10:09:44 PM   
Schlussel


Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		Hmmm, thanks treespider...yeah that is what I currently do...good ol' guesstimation.  I was hoping there was some exact method using LaPlace transformations in combonation with Euler's method...but alas...I guess war isn't really an "exact" science
Thanks again for the advice guys. 

-E

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 7
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/21/2007 10:44:55 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schlussel

Thanks guys. That is quite a good workaround. This is why I am such a fan of this game, it's the support. I have been playing Witp for a year now, and have pretty much found and answer to everything I ever wanted to know on these message boards. (Except for the whole "Chicken or the Egg?" question...what a doozie).

Okay I got another one:

Is there an easy way to know if a group of LCU's will fit in a convoy?
It's simple if your convoy is made up of only AP's, but say there is a combo of AP's, AK's and LCI's...
It seems like when you load them, the screen only displays the total in AP size not AK or whatever. A couple times the screen says the Land units will fit...and then I find that a fragment of one of the units is left behind a couple days after the convoy leaves port.


This is what I do. The allies don't have anywhere near enough APs until very late in the war, in particular if you like to play agreesive. Therefore, I commonly mix APs and AKs.

One thing to keep in mind is that units won't load 100% efficiently onto a ship. There is often "leftover" and this problem is worse with AKs (since it takes more of them), so I always try to plan AP capacity at 110% what is called for and AK capacity at 120%.

I don't mix apples and oranges when i load convoys ...
1st I create an all AP TF load what troops I can, then I create an AK force and load what i can then if I need to I merge the two TF's into one...

Also by using this great mathemetical trick i learned in elementray school of guestimating...If I look at a LCU and I see that it will take 5000 AP or 30,000 AK to load ... I know that if I only have 2500 AP (50% of the required) I will then need about 15,000 AK (50%) to complete the load...



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Post #: 8
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/21/2007 11:13:37 PM   
foliveti


Posts: 371
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Buffalo, NY
Status: offline 		What I have found is that equipment, Artillery and Vehicles, loads more efficiently into an AK than the troops, infantry, engineers and support. What I have been doing is to start with a TF with just an AK or two to load Equipment. The heavy stuff will usually load first. Then I idle the AK TF and load up an AP TF. The AP will load some of the lighter equipment like AA guns and mortars, but usually stays clear of vehicles and Artillery until it has its fill of people. In this way you can usually do a bit better than the guestimation technique for loading a TF.

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Frank

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Post #: 9
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/21/2007 11:24:46 PM   
KPAX


Posts: 735
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: Where the heart is; Home of the Fighting Irish
Status: offline 		And make sure that you do like 1.5 or 2 x the load it says. 

Example, if it says 10k for AP make sure you have 15k-20k.  That way if something gets sunk you are not loosing a big chuck of your LCU. 

Also, as Allies, it is a long trip from the good 'ol USA to Oz.  May as well fill some supplies.  I try not to have a TF with just LCUs, but mix in a bit of A/C, fuel and supplies.  I personally like bigger TF and than provide them some ASW TF as support.

Also, if you are running Big B mod, there is a lot of oil which can be sent to OZ for the HI there.

< Message edited by KPAX -- 5/21/2007 11:26:12 PM >

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Thanks !!

KPAX

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Post #: 10
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/22/2007 12:24:13 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KPAX

And make sure that you do like 1.5 or 2 x the load it says. 

Example, if it says 10k for AP make sure you have 15k-20k.  That way if something gets sunk you are not loosing a big chuck of your LCU. 

Also, as Allies, it is a long trip from the good 'ol USA to Oz.  May as well fill some supplies.  I try not to have a TF with just LCUs, but mix in a bit of A/C, fuel and supplies.  I personally like bigger TF and than provide them some ASW TF as support.

Also, if you are running Big B mod, there is a lot of oil which can be sent to OZ for the HI there.

Interesting approach. I agree to some extent about not putting your whole unit on 1 ship, but I don't worry to much about it if it is a Division...divisions are usually staged well in advance anyway.

I actually prefer to keep my supply and transport convoys seperate. WHy? First I use APs as much as possible for the long haul from WC to the South Pacific and APs move 1 hex further per phase, which adds up on long trips. Second, large supply convoys take a long time to unload, troops unload fast (Hey! It's shore leave). So I like to get the APs turned around as quickly as possible and have them heading home to pick up more troops.

The exception to that rule are the EAB and Seabee units. They just fit better on AKs, so they go with the supply convoys.

Oil goes in single tanker TFs.

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Post #: 11
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/22/2007 4:01:37 AM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: foliveti

What I have found is that equipment, Artillery and Vehicles, loads more efficiently into an AK than the troops, infantry, engineers and support. What I have been doing is to start with a TF with just an AK or two to load Equipment. The heavy stuff will usually load first. Then I idle the AK TF and load up an AP TF. The AP will load some of the lighter equipment like AA guns and mortars, but usually stays clear of vehicles and Artillery until it has its fill of people. In this way you can usually do a bit better than the guestimation technique for loading a TF.

Loading can be a puzzle for sure. But the answer depends entirely on what situation you plan to unload them into.

If you are unloading at a friendly base, the AP/AK mix approach is fine.

But if you plan to unload on a contested hex, your LCUs need to be in 100% APs for two reasons.

  • Although AKs load guns more efficiently than APs do, they unload them very slowly. If you load part of an LCU, a division say, onto AKs, that part will take several days to unload. This is often quite unacceptable.
  • If you are unloading onto a contested hex, APs get a bonus for disruption and disablements.


If you are in assault mode, put your LCUs into APs (except for armour), and save the AKs for supplies. Armour belongs ideally in LSTs or LCTs. It fits quite efficiently into AKs, but again, unloading is the question. Use AKs only for supplies in an assault situation!

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Post #: 12
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/22/2007 5:01:48 AM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		I am always using close to 150% carrying capacity to load LCU.  I've left fragments when loading too close to max capacity for some reason {stupid loadmasters, longshoreman's union, sick, lame and lazy not getting on the boat before it leaves}.  Also, if you have excess capacity and a ship falls down a flight of Bettys, the other ships can rescue the survivors.

(in reply to tsimmonds)
Post #: 13
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/22/2007 2:28:54 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		I do the same thing as rockmedic with one addition.  I usually add an AK or 2 to bring supply along.  Here's the process:

Create a transport TF with 150% of load requirements for the unit I want to transport.  Start the unit loading in the TF.  Then add 1-2 AKs.  The APs will automatically finish loading the LCU and the AKs will load supply.

This ensures that supply is landed on the first turn of the invasion.

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 14
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/22/2007 5:19:00 PM   
Schlussel


Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline 		I've always had issues with supply on the first turn of invasion.  That is quite a nifty trick, thanks Mike.


quote:

ORIGINAL:  irrelevant

quote:

ORIGINAL:  foliveti
What I have found is that equipment, Artillery and Vehicles, loads more efficiently into an AK than the troops, infantry, engineers and support.  What I have been doing is to start with a TF with just an AK or two to load Equipment.  The heavy stuff will usually load first.  Then I idle the AK TF and load up an AP TF.  The AP will load some of the lighter equipment like AA guns and mortars, but usually stays clear of vehicles and Artillery until it has its fill of people.  In this way you can usually do a bit better than the guestimation technique for loading a TF.

Loading can be a puzzle for sure. But the answer depends entirely on what situation you plan to unload them into.
If you are unloading at a friendly base, the AP/AK mix approach is fine.
But if you plan to unload on a contested hex, your LCUs need to be in 100% APs for two reasons.
  • Although AKs load guns more efficiently than APs do, they unload them very slowly. If you load part of an LCU, a division say, onto AKs, that part will take several days to unload. This is often quite unacceptable.
  • If you are unloading onto a contested hex, APs get a bonus for disruption and disablements.

If you are in assault mode, put your LCUs into APs (except for armour), and save the AKs for supplies. Armour belongs ideally in LSTs or LCTs. It fits quite efficiently into AKs, but again, unloading is the question. Use AKs only for supplies in an assault situation!


What if you are the Allies in Mid-42 and you have a strange shortage of AP's?  I have some LCU's itching for a fight but AK's seem to be the only available mode of transportation.  I would never dream of assaulting a fortress like Kwajalein untill I have sufficient available LCI's...however, if there is an opening at a nearby atoll (like Woetje) would you be willing to sacrifice high AK and troop casualties to take it? 
Maybe I am being too impatient, but it seems to me that the game wants the Allied player to wait until mid-43 (when the actual counterattack occured)to assault...when the proper landing craft is available. 

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 15
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/22/2007 6:10:00 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Schlussel, have you lost a lot of APs so far, or are they just stretched thin on other duty? You should have enough APs for at least one offensive.

Otherwise, you can use AKs and just use a lot of them.

When I plan an invasion I not only put some AKs loaded only with supply in the invasion TF. I usually have a second TF with nothing but supplies in it that lands the same turn.

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Post #: 16
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/22/2007 6:13:21 PM   
stldiver


Posts: 724
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: West Palm Beach, USA
Status: offline 		AK's are fine to use in invasions, The trick is to pack the troops so they unload in one turn or two turns at the most. Yes an AP can hold more but it cannot unload the full load in one day or two days. This is what I do to pack an invasion force. This example will be a rough estimate not exact but will give you an idea.

1 Division is approx 15k for AP load/ 90K for AK load, this would lead you to want to load on AP due to less ships needed, wrong. I usually make landings of 3 Divisions on very contested Islands and don't have enough AP's so I mix and match on each division. Usually I will use 4 to 5 AP and 7 to 10 AK's!!! Why you say that is outragous waste of ships, but remember the goal is to unload in one day the most essential troops and 2 days the rest, When I put the example 5 AP, 10 AK force to load, after I hit load I should see "loading supplies" If I see that I know my ships will unload in less then two days thus a great landing, if I see still loading units, I will check how much is left to be loaded, create another AK convoy, load those troops that turn, merge them together, untill the division is loaded in one day, thus will unload quickly.

Now with this method the ships will be stuffed with some supplies but not a lot and the supplies will unload last, so I usually will attach 3 to 5 small AK's loaded with supplies only to also land with the unit, thus the division will have supply. The other advantage to this is the main group of AK's will have unloaded in one day or two and can retreat to safty only leaving the supply AK's at the landing zone.

The rule of thumb that I use for a fast unload is 2x capacity for the initial load. For Base forces, Enginneers and supports I will pack them in as usually they come after the island is secured and don't need as quick an unload.

(in reply to Schlussel)
Post #: 17
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/22/2007 7:31:55 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline 		For atoll assault, the best way to do is to load all your units in one turn. To do that do the following, create your TF with ships having all their op points. Order to load troops. If the unit had been totally loaded in one day (in a small port), it's fine. You should land it in one day too at the target. If a part of the unit remains, create a new TF, load the unit on it, then merge both TFs... etc... until the unit had been loaded. Then complet with supplies, but as said above it is very important to include in your invasion TF ships that are laden only with supplies. My personnal method is to load them separately, then reassign them to invasion TF once they are loaded. And I usually will send one AK with supply for every 3 troopships in the TF. That allows most of my landing units to be on green status for supplies at the end of day one, and for the first (and most important) assault. Using AP or AK then is not important then, as the ships that unload slowly do probably load slowly too.

Another trick, if the base didn't fall on day one, is then to redispatch troop and supply ships in different TF. TF unloading supply won't be fired at by CD defences in WITP (go figure..) while those landing troops will.... And as most things in WITP the number of shells fired is not depending on the number of defending guns but is probably linked on the number of guns multiplied by the number of targets, so having a smaller troop convoy will not increase the number of shots fired at each troop ship, while your supplies will land without problem.
I don't think this "AK trick" will work on day one before as they will be no troop in the enemy base, no supply will be landed. It may work if the troops are in the good order in the database (first the troop TF, then the supply TF).

(in reply to stldiver)
Post #: 18
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/22/2007 10:28:53 PM   
Schlussel


Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Schlussel, have you lost a lot of APs so far, or are they just stretched thin on other duty? You should have enough APs for at least one offensive.

Otherwise, you can use AKs and just use a lot of them.

When I plan an invasion I not only put some AKs loaded only with supply in the invasion TF. I usually have a second TF with nothing but supplies in it that lands the same turn.


Well it's kind of a combination. I had a few AP's damaged during the Lunga/Tulagi campaign. That's all well and good but, now I've got the Japanese attention and now the KB (6+ Carriers) in the South Pacific counterattacking Lunga. Now my carrier force can't directly engage them and I don't dare sortie my remaining AP's from Lunga and leave the relative safety of my land based air cover. A large bulk (save 2 or 3) of my available AP transports are effectively stuck.
I think an invasion in Woetje would be do-able since the Japanese are out of position...as long as the invasion goes quickly. I like all the advice everyone has suggested...especially the one about including a few transports that ONLY have supply. This will help on that pivotal first shock attack that happens on atoll invasions. I feel much more comfortable in this endeavour with the responses I have received.

Gung Ho! Wish me luck.





< Message edited by Schlussel -- 5/22/2007 10:29:27 PM >

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Post #: 19
RE: Convoy Routes - 5/23/2007 6:12:26 AM   
Jam_USMC


Posts: 63
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: Missouri
Status: offline
quote:


-How do you manually select convoy routes? I am shipping supplies from the west coast to P.Moresby and the darn convoys want to pass right through the japanese air cover. I usually just have them go to Efate or something (with do not unload selected...I learned the hard way) and then continue to PM, but this is a bit of a hassle. Don't get me wrong, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE micromanagement, but I was wondering if any of you knew of an easier way.



Being a noob myself I wrestled with this question for a while until I finally found something that seems workable, and kind fun to set up and manage. I am sure I got most, if not all of the idea, from this forum, but I can't remember where.

Anyway, from SF I set up 3 seperate fuel and supply convoys. One each to PH, Suva, and Brisbane (wash, rinse, and repeat as necessary) thus making them my "hubs". So, from my PH hub I set up another convoy to Midway, another to Johnson Is., and another to Palmyra. The Suva hub(I use Suva instead of Noumea because the route to Noumea goes through bad guy territroy.) serves Noumea, Luganville (eventually) and some other place. Finally, the Brisbane hub serves PM, GG, or anywhere else on New Guinea.
The Brisbane route does skim by the edge of Jap land at first so be sure to have air cover to protect them. I also use subs as pickets near the route as well.
There are probably better ways but this setup makes me at least feel like I am managing a delicate convoy system.

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Post #: 20
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