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There is hope for Japanese players in 45

 
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There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/19/2007 11:58:33 PM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		The Japanese advance fighters can shread unescorted B-29 formations.....the Randi's(KI-102s are extremely effective as bomber killers, as well as Franks.....

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/20/45


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Midway Island , at 97,63

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 31
J2M Jack x 30
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 18
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 22
Ki-84-Ic Frank x 24
Ki-102a Randy x 12

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 182

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 4 destroyed, 24 damaged
J2M Jack: 3 destroyed, 25 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 3 destroyed, 12 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 5 destroyed, 13 damaged
Ki-84-Ic Frank: 4 destroyed, 16 damaged
Ki-102a Randy: 11 damaged
J1N1-S Irving: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 122 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
88 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 12

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 16000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 14000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 14000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 18000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 14000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 18000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 14000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 18000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 18000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 16000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 18000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Midway Island , at 97,63

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 29
J2M Jack x 29
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 15
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 18
Ki-84-Ic Frank x 21
Ki-102a Randy x 12

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 51

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
J2M Jack: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-84-Ic Frank: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
Ki-102a Randy: 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 42 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
19 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 7

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 8000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 13000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 12000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 8000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 12000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 8000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 13000 feet









< Message edited by MineSweeper -- 6/20/2007 12:43:02 AM >

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RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 11:59:12 AM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		Suggest that bomber losses on this scale would bring about a catastrophic, indeed terminal collapse in morale. Understanding of the psychology of war had, by WWII, advanced to the point of recognising that courage is a limited commodity. Having seen 66% of their comrades go down over the target, I find it hard to believe that the survivors could be induced to go on further opposed sorties. What's more, if I were commander of a unit so affected, I wouldn't order them to do so. They couldn't be relied upon to undertake further missions effectively, and I would expect many to find a pretext on which to abort - 'magneto drop' or whatever. No good padding out the missing places with replacement drafts, either: suspect the depressed attitude of the 'old guard' survivors would be such as to drag down the morale of the new boys in short order. Don't know the extent to which the game models the mechanics of this, but IRL I would regard this weapon as irretrievably broken.

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Post #: 2
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 1:34:51 PM   
Fokkov2

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline 		8000ft , isn't that a bit low for an plane designed for high altitude bombing with pressurised cabine an all.

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Post #: 3
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 2:53:38 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fokkov2

8000ft , isn't that a bit low for an plane designed for high altitude bombing with pressurised cabine an all.


During the war, they USAAF found that they could get good results from high-altitude bombing - so started bombing from quite low altitudes (lower even than this) - but they did it at night...

(in reply to Fokkov2)
Post #: 4
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 3:25:56 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline 		Unescorted B-29 can be defeated by CAP, yes, but with P-38J or P-51 escort it won't be the same at all... that is why it is critical to not allow the Allied to have a base from which he may escort raids to Home Island. Unescorted raids might be costly... but you also can't have 200 fighters over each Japanese city.

As for the effect of losses on morale, I think it is modelized in WITP. Wether it is well modelized or not I don't know, but IRL you can find the example of the Battle and Blenheim squadrons of the RAF that suffered huge losses in May 1940, seeing several formations lose more than 80% of their number but still continued to fly operations. You could find other examples in the Soviet airforce in 1941, or in the Lufwaffe fighter units in fall 1944.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 5
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 5:46:50 PM   
Mark VII


Posts: 1838
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Brentwood,TN
Status: offline 		It does not seem well modeled to me as I have seen IJN carrier pilots go from 99 morale to less than 50 after sinking two American carriers with light a/c losses and only 10-15 damage to their carriers. You would think that after a battle like that their morale would be sky high like around 159.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

As for the effect of losses on morale, I think it is modelized in WITP. Wether it is well modelized or not I don't know, but IRL you can find the example of the Battle and Blenheim squadrons of the RAF that suffered huge losses in May 1940, seeing several formations lose more than 80% of their number but still continued to fly operations. You could find other examples in the Soviet airforce in 1941, or in the Lufwaffe fighter units in fall 1944.



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Post #: 6
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 5:48:30 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		What are the Exp levels of the fighter pilots?

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Post #: 7
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 6:07:31 PM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		Pretty good exp. guys......




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 8
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 6:34:52 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fokkov2

8000ft , isn't that a bit low for an plane designed for high altitude bombing with pressurised cabine an all.


During the war, they USAAF found that they could get good results from high-altitude bombing - so started bombing from quite low altitudes (lower even than this) - but they did it at night...

It seems to me that the B-29 performed decently from high alititude when attacking in mass...basically carpet bombing and industrial complex.

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Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

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Post #: 9
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 6:56:53 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fokkov2

8000ft , isn't that a bit low for an plane designed for high altitude bombing with pressurised cabine an all.


During the war, they USAAF found that they could get good results from high-altitude bombing - so started bombing from quite low altitudes (lower even than this) - but they did it at night...

It seems to me that the B-29 performed decently from high alititude when attacking in mass...basically carpet bombing and industrial complex.


Not really - the USAAF was disappointed in the results. Gen Curtis LeMay came in and started having them (the B-29s) fly night missions at relatively low altitude, and they started causing firestorms and destroying entire cities.

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 10
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 7:02:33 PM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		Plus the Jet stream above Japan was intense.....really messed up High Altitude Bombing...

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Post #: 11
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 8:42:04 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Actually, you don't -need- high exp guys to kill B-29s with Franks.  In my brief forray in '45 vs. Oli, my suck-pilots did quite well vs. B-29s when flying Franks etc.  Now, they didn't knock down 150 out 200.  But they were knocking down 30 or so, which was sufficient (in my opinion).  It was the campaign that started in 45, we both just had the stock squadrons (no trainining for years leading up).  I guess my pilots were about 35 exp.  His B-29s were probably 60.  But unescorted, my Franks gave a good account of themselves.

I kinda miss that game Oli.  It was like blowing soap bubbles at a hurricane.  But I can't make the time commit to resuming it yet. :^(

-F-

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Post #: 12
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 8:48:35 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

The Japanese advance fighters can shread unescorted B-29 formations.....the Randi's(KI-102s are extremely effective as bomber killers, as well as Franks.....

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/20/45


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Midway Island , at 97,63

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 31
J2M Jack x 30
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 18
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 22
Ki-84-Ic Frank x 24
Ki-102a Randy x 12

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 182

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 4 destroyed, 24 damaged
J2M Jack: 3 destroyed, 25 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 3 destroyed, 12 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 5 destroyed, 13 damaged
Ki-84-Ic Frank: 4 destroyed, 16 damaged
Ki-102a Randy: 11 damaged
J1N1-S Irving: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 122 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
88 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 12

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 16000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 14000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 14000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 18000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 14000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 18000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 14000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 18000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 18000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 16000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 18000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Midway Island , at 97,63

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 29
J2M Jack x 29
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 15
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 18
Ki-84-Ic Frank x 21
Ki-102a Randy x 12

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 51

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
J2M Jack: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-84-Ic Frank: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
Ki-102a Randy: 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 42 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
19 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 7

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 8000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 13000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 12000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 8000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 12000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 8000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 13000 feet












lol, pretty good example of the A2A in WITP! This is as far from reality like going in a cannon shell to the moon!

Sorry to be "negative" again but what do you think would have done 182 B-29s to those fighters? And I´m probably more of a JFB! Would that have been even a 1:1 in real life?

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Post #: 13
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/20/2007 11:02:48 PM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		Crap, why do people post these things and ruin my morale. I can't even handle the Tony's. Now I find Jwilkersons going to be kicking my butt even in 45???

< Message edited by moses -- 6/20/2007 11:03:26 PM >

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 14
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/21/2007 1:22:00 AM   
jhorner


Posts: 5
Joined: 6/7/2007
Status: offline 		Aren't the numbers inflated on propose to simulate fog of war?  I thought this was done to show how the same pilots claim the same air victory!  Does it give the same numbers of losses on the intel screen?  If this is true, I might download Nik's mod or whichever one advertised as "fixing" the A2A system in WITP.

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Post #: 15
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/21/2007 3:48:21 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		The FoW regarding air-to-air losses was all but removed.  The numbers you see are fairly accurate.  Basically, "the old way", all you had to do was divide the number of kills by two, and you got an accurate representation of the battle.  The Air Totals report (or whatever you call it, on the intel screens), is 100% accurate anyway, so the FoW of air losses is moot anyway.

Nik's mode does mitigate the air-to-air losses somewhat.  You might solicit some other comments tho - I think some folks were finding that the number of damaged planes were piling up, and they couldn't repair them fast enough, so they had basses with piles of damaged (unusable) planse.  I think Nik was either working on, or completed, a further "tweak" to help with that situation, but you'll want to get some feed-back to see if said tweak was available, or would be shortly.

-F-

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Post #: 16
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/21/2007 7:53:08 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

The FoW regarding air-to-air losses was all but removed.  The numbers you see are fairly accurate.  Basically, "the old way", all you had to do was divide the number of kills by two, and you got an accurate representation of the battle.  The Air Totals report (or whatever you call it, on the intel screens), is 100% accurate anyway, so the FoW of air losses is moot anyway.

Nik's mode does mitigate the air-to-air losses somewhat.  You might solicit some other comments tho - I think some folks were finding that the number of damaged planes were piling up, and they couldn't repair them fast enough, so they had basses with piles of damaged (unusable) planse.  I think Nik was either working on, or completed, a further "tweak" to help with that situation, but you'll want to get some feed-back to see if said tweak was available, or would be shortly.

-F-


There is no FOW in air losses shown in WITP and any victory awarded to a pilot is real (ie is an enemy loss), contrary to reality where 30 to 70% were overclaims depending of teh side and time...

In first version of WITP air losses were doubled in reports, and ground losses were shown as they were. In current patch version, and since v1.3 IIRC, air losses are shown as they are really, and ground losses are divided by 2... My guess being that just someone had a "divide by 2" at the end of the code....

By the way overclaiming for AC destroyed on the ground was far heavier for A2A kills.

As for the side-effect of Nik mod, I think it is fairly realistic. Op units didn't fly daily with all their aircraft !!! And in fact many AC that were damaged in SW Pacific and could have been repaired in USA or Japan just were left at the end of a runway to be repaired later... and sometimes are still there 60 years later (if wreck chasers spared them).

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 17
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/21/2007 8:10:50 PM   
MineSweeper


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Nags Head, NC
Status: offline 		Also IRL, the JAAF and IJNAF did not co-operate very well....@ damaged Army planes had to seek repairs at another location, even though a IJNAF base (that was closer) had the capabilities to repair them.....

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Post #: 18
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/22/2007 11:23:33 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		All you gotta remember is this is a game, and all Japan has to do to "win" is to keep from "losing" within the time parameters of the game system. Thus Japan must do whatever is appropriate within the game context; go ahistorical if you must, cheat (gamey tricks) if you your opponent allows, this is war and victory is victory. The alternative is defeat and humiliation.

I love it that the gamers try so hard to be historical. Unfortunately this develops a tension between accuracy and playability. One group pulls here, one group pulls there.

Historically, Japan was after our political will; they all knew there was no hope against our capability. Once our will was mobilized, Japan had no possibility of victory. Ultimately, we win. The game has no methodology by which to judge political will, nor should it. This was a global consideration impelled by popular thought and implemented by politicians and their particular imperitives.

Thus the game. How to balance the inherent immense potential advantages of the Allied forces against the early preparation and expansion of Imperial Japan vis a vis an unprepared and amateurish opposition.

Balance is all important in a game context. My thoughts are; if you can kill them, kill them! It probably won't help in the grand scheme of things, unless you are really smart and really, really lucky, but it will amass enuf victory points to make you a respected opponent.

BTW, one reason I am opposed to extending the game time frame beyond the historical is the power law increase in potential Allied capability beyond 7/45. 12 or 20 nukes trump all the Ohkas and JP jets you can build. The game is not devised to go there.

Just my simple thoughts.


(in reply to MineSweeper)
Post #: 19
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/22/2007 11:50:05 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

The Japanese advance fighters can shread unescorted B-29 formations.....the Randi's(KI-102s are extremely effective as bomber killers, as well as Franks.....

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/20/45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Midway Island , at 97,63

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 31
J2M Jack x 30
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 18
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 22
Ki-84-Ic Frank x 24
Ki-102a Randy x 12

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 182

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 4 destroyed, 24 damaged
J2M Jack: 3 destroyed, 25 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 3 destroyed, 12 damaged
Ki-84-Ia Frank: 5 destroyed, 13 damaged
Ki-84-Ic Frank: 4 destroyed, 16 damaged
Ki-102a Randy: 11 damaged
J1N1-S Irving: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 122 destroyed



Wow, was that from stock?


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

All you gotta remember is this is a game, and all Japan has to do to "win" is to keep from "losing" within the time parameters of the game system. Thus Japan must do whatever is appropriate within the game context; go ahistorical if you must, cheat (gamey tricks) if you your opponent allows, this is war and victory is victory. The alternative is defeat and humiliation.

I love it that the gamers try so hard to be historical. Unfortunately this develops a tension between accuracy and playability. One group pulls here, one group pulls there.

Historically, Japan was after our political will; they all knew there was no hope against our capability. Once our will was mobilized, Japan had no possibility of victory. Ultimately, we win. The game has no methodology by which to judge political will, nor should it. This was a global consideration impelled by popular thought and implemented by politicians and their particular imperitives.

Thus the game. How to balance the inherent immense potential advantages of the Allied forces against the early preparation and expansion of Imperial Japan vis a vis an unprepared and amateurish opposition.

Balance is all important in a game context. My thoughts are; if you can kill them, kill them! It probably won't help in the grand scheme of things, unless you are really smart and really, really lucky, but it will amass enuf victory points to make you a respected opponent.

BTW, one reason I am opposed to extending the game time frame beyond the historical is the power law increase in potential Allied capability beyond 7/45. 12 or 20 nukes trump all the Ohkas and JP jets you can build. The game is not devised to go there.

Just my simple thoughts.



I agree

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 20
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/23/2007 1:24:30 AM   
ctangus


Posts: 2153
Joined: 10/13/2005
From: Boston, Mass.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Historically, Japan was after our political will; they all knew there was no hope against our capability. Once our will was mobilized, Japan had no possibility of victory. Ultimately, we win. The game has no methodology by which to judge political will, nor should it.


I'd say it has a rather simple methodology to judge political will:

"Ack! You're kicking my b---!!! I surrender!"

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 21
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/23/2007 3:13:25 AM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		I like the fact that it is a game. It's fun.

(in reply to ctangus)
Post #: 22
RE: There is hope for Japanese players in 45 - 6/27/2007 2:20:48 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		Just another reason not to start a stock A2A model game.

(in reply to BrucePowers)
Post #: 23
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