Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/27/2007 12:06:09 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

I personally liked the look of the YF-23 more than the YF-22. There's a decent argument to be made that it should have been selected too but it's a complicated topic. AFAIK, a strike/bomber version (admittedly quite different) might get built after all.

Here are some nice piccies anyway.

Cheers, Neilster

Attachment (3)

Post #: 1

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/27/2007 12:36:42 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

Much better looking aircraft, that's for sure...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 2

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/27/2007 4:02:51 PM

AlvinS

Posts: 665
Joined: 12/2/2000
From: O'Fallon, Missouri
Status: offline

The YF-23 was built by McDonnell Douglas. I was crushed when we lost the competition. It is a beautiful aircraft.

_____________________________

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." ---Mark Twain

Naval Warfare Simulations

AlvinS

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 3

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/27/2007 4:25:16 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

I remember a friend of mine's first comment when he saw the F-22: "It looks like a speed boat!"

The F-23 really looks the business.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to AlvinS)

Post #: 4

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/27/2007 5:04:39 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvinS

The YF-23 was built by McDonnell Douglas. I was crushed when we lost the competition. It is a beautiful aircraft.

That must really hurt. To be involved in a long, complicated project, requiring dedication, tough decisions, secrecy, hard work, sacrifice, that's potentially worth billions and that could last for decades; it would be impossible not to get emotionally involved. Jeez, I can remember being disappointed with the decision from far away Tasmania, with no real connection at all. That sleek manta-ray incorporated many a hope and dream.

An alternative history flight sim featuring the F/A-23 would be cool. I'd buy it. The F/A-23 would look even better with 15 years of development (gold canopy coating etc).

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to AlvinS)

Post #: 5

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/27/2007 8:38:22 PM

chief

Posts: 1660
Joined: 9/28/2000
From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline

AlvinS: If you work for Lockheed you may remember this slogan as printed on a Flight Engineers slide rule.

"L2LFLL2DFA"

Translation....."Look to Lockheed for Leadership, Look to Douglas for Aircraft", that bird above proves the formula

_____________________________

"God Bless America and All the Young men and women who give their all to protect Her"....chief

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 6

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/27/2007 10:14:36 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

Hah!

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to chief)

Post #: 7

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/28/2007 12:57:00 AM

Arctic Blast

Posts: 1168
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

It seems like there are a few too many aircraft currently being produced. I mean, the F22 is coming online, there's talk of a strike YF23, and yet the F35 JSF starts being built next year. Wouldn't it make more sense to just pick one plane?

Anyway, enough of my judgments...it is a really nice looking aircraft.

_____________________________

Meditation on inevitable death should be performed daily.

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 8

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/28/2007 3:17:09 AM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

It seems like there are a few too many aircraft currently being produced. I mean, the F22 is coming online, there's talk of a strike YF23, and yet the F35 JSF starts being built next year. Wouldn't it make more sense to just pick one plane?

Anyway, enough of my judgments...it is a really nice looking aircraft.

It's all caught up in politics, changing needs, changing technology and the seemingly inevitable cost escalation of military projects. Originally, the ATF (for which the F-22 was selected) was going to be in service in the late 90s and would be bought in large numbers. Then there were a bunch of delays, the unit cost of the aircraft skyrocketed and it was decided that a cheaper, smaller aircraft with ground attack capability that took advantage of some new technologies that had been developed in the interim would be an advantageous adjunct to the no-compromise F-22, which was now going to be bought in far fewer numbers. Hence the JSF.

A new aircraft was needed to replace a bunch of 3rd and 4th generation fighters anyway. The F-35 also offers a STOVL capability for customers who want that (and hence buy that variant). It is hoped it will compliment the F/A-22 in much the same way as the F-16 has the F-15. Of course it's over-budget and over-time too, so they'll probably have to buy some UAVs or something.

Cheers, Neilster

< Message edited by Neilster -- 5/29/2007 5:25:15 PM >

(in reply to Arctic Blast)

Post #: 9

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/28/2007 10:31:06 PM

Arctic Blast

Posts: 1168
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Yeah, the Marine Corps are buying the vert. version to replace the Harriers. I guess I can understand how this all happened, it just seems like an overspending of defense resources on one area is all. Especially if they DO end up buying some YF23's as well.

_____________________________

Meditation on inevitable death should be performed daily.

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 10

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/29/2007 5:13:26 AM

FlipTrac_511

Posts: 324
Joined: 5/24/2006
Status: offline

Going by looks alone, I was hoping the YF-22 would win. The YF-23 does look exotic, I'll give it that.

(in reply to Arctic Blast)

Post #: 11

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/29/2007 3:36:16 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

The F-22 is a pretty funky looking aircraft, especially from certain angles. From others it looks like an F-15 that's been blended more and with the nose chined and most of the right angles adjusted for stealth reasons. Not that there's anything wrong with the F-15s looks.

Cheers, Neilster

Attachment (3)

< Message edited by Neilster -- 5/29/2007 4:03:39 PM >

(in reply to FlipTrac_511)

Post #: 12

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 5/30/2007 6:00:00 AM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvinS

The YF-23 was built by McDonnell Douglas. I was crushed when we lost the competition. It is a beautiful aircraft.

Ummmm it says "Northrop" in big letters and first on the nose.

I had the rare privelage of getting to see these two birds up close and personal while they were in storage at CTF inside EAFB. I was a NB2D employee at the time.

On the inside of the nosewheel doors, the nicknames of the two prototypes were stenciled in. The dark one was 'Spider' and the light one was 'Grey Ghost'.

Sweet looking planes. I always thought the YF-22 looked like a dump truck in caparison.

(in reply to AlvinS)

Post #: 13

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/20/2007 9:58:22 AM

Fredk

Posts: 75
Joined: 3/4/2007
Status: offline

Eh, i think they're both ugly as sin, but the engine nacelle (flight engineers fill me in on the real technical term here) humps really put the '23 into its own special category of disgusting asthetics. Surprised so many people find the look of it more pleasing than the -22.

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)

Post #: 14

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/20/2007 4:04:47 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredk

Eh, i think they're both ugly as sin, but the engine nacelle (flight engineers fill me in on the real technical term here) humps really put the '23 into its own special category of disgusting asthetics. Surprised so many people find the look of it more pleasing than the -22.

Jeez...tough audience.

What do you think of the looks of the S-37 Berkut?

Cheers, Neilster

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 15

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/21/2007 12:53:34 AM

Fredk

Posts: 75
Joined: 3/4/2007
Status: offline

Pretty sweet Neilster, although to be fair I'm probably a bit biased as my parents gave me, what I recognize now as, the minautrized prototype of that aircraft to play with along with my GI Joes.

Also, is it actually going to be built? I'm I going to have to go to Paris to see it?

edited because I'm a grammar mong.

< Message edited by Fredk -- 6/21/2007 1:53:48 AM >

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 16

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/21/2007 3:15:08 AM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredk

Pretty sweet Neilster, although to be fair I'm probably a bit biased as my parents gave me, what I recognize now as, the minautrized prototype of that aircraft to play with along with my GI Joes.

Also, is it actually going to be built? I'm I going to have to go to Paris to see it?

edited because I'm a grammar mong.

Your childhood toy had forward swept wings? Probably more of an imaginative guess than any real aerodynamic knowledge on the part of the designer.

The S-37 is a technology demonstrator that uses some components from the Su-27 family and elsewhere. It now appears the Russkies are offering a production variant to potential customers. Wikipedia gives a good overview of this aircraft and you can see it fly here...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Px-qfKcAQKg

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 17

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/21/2007 9:29:08 AM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

The United States experimented with a reverse-swept-wing forward-canard design called the X-29 in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Development was abandoned because, although some performance advantages were gained from the design (particularly in stall and turn characteristics), the airframe proved unstable and subject to unpredictable severe yaw while in flight that caused a couple of near crashes of test aircraft.

Toymakers picked up on the exotic design, which was found only in sonny's toy chest until the Russians pulled it out and started playing with it again. Whether they have solved the odd problems presented by the innovations of the design is anyone's guess.

They seem to like producing bizarre, "gee whiz" looking aircraft (and tanks) for marketing purposes, kind of putting them into the toy designer category themselves...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 18

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/21/2007 2:45:10 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

The United States experimented with a reverse-swept-wing forward-canard design called the X-29 in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Development was abandoned because, although some performance advantages were gained from the design (particularly in stall and turn characteristics), the airframe proved unstable and subject to unpredictable severe yaw while in flight that caused a couple of near crashes of test aircraft.

Toymakers picked up on the exotic design, which was found only in sonny's toy chest until the Russians pulled it out and started playing with it again. Whether they have solved the odd problems presented by the innovations of the design is anyone's guess.

They seem to like producing bizarre, "gee whiz" looking aircraft (and tanks) for marketing purposes, kind of putting them into the toy designer category themselves...

Thanks for your interest pasternakski but I'm wondering what exactly you mean by "the airframe proved unstable" and do you have a reference for this "unpredictable severe yaw while in flight that caused a couple of near crashes of test aircraft"? I'm a fighter aircraft technician and have a keen interest in this field. All CCV vehicles (ie most modern fighters) are inherently unstable and are kept in a straight line by their computer controlled flight control system.

The Russians test flew the forward swept wing Ju 287 (captured from the Germans) in 1947 so they were very familiar with the concept before the X-29. What "bizarre, "gee whiz" looking aircraft (and tanks)" have the Russians marketed? I can only think of sober, capable and fairly conventional designs like the Flanker family and their Main Battle Tanks. Their WIG (Wing in Ground-effect) stuff looks unusual but AFAIK haven't been marketed. In what way does this put Russian designers in the "toy designer category"? I can assure you that Russian military technology was taken deadly seriously at my old Air Force squadron a few years ago. No one was too keen to get a Vympel R-77 up their arse.

Cheers, Neilster

< Message edited by Neilster -- 6/21/2007 3:28:49 PM >

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 19

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/21/2007 4:53:03 PM

SemperAugustus

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/9/2005
Status: offline

Was the main problem with forward swept wings the stress on the wing tips? The Germans ran into some issue with the design, anyone know?

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 20

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/21/2007 6:21:03 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SemperAugustus

Was the main problem with forward swept wings the stress on the wing tips? The Germans ran into some issue with the design, anyone know?

FSW want to tear off, especially at high speed. To counter this, they generally need to be constructed mainly from ultra-strong composites laid in such a way as to provide extreme strength in particular directions. It's debatable whether the aerodynamic gains (especially gained in the transonic regime) offset the manufacturing effort.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to SemperAugustus)

Post #: 21

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/22/2007 2:44:55 PM

Fredk

Posts: 75
Joined: 3/4/2007
Status: offline

Thanks for the link Neilster, very cool - although I wish I could block out the comments at the bottom of the youtube pages - they usually give me a headache.

Yes, I may be dating myself as a youngster here, but I did have that toy about the time the X-29 development was going on. So it may have not been too much imagination on the part of the toy maker.

Also, I was reading the benifits of forward swept wings on the wiki page - is there anything that gives a slight more technical explanation of why the FSWs give these benifits that is still understandable to someone who isn't an aeronautical engineer?

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 22

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/22/2007 3:04:51 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredk

Thanks for the link Neilster, very cool - although I wish I could block out the comments at the bottom of the youtube pages - they usually give me a headache.

Yes, I may be dating myself as a youngster here, but I did have that toy about the time the X-29 development was going on. So it may have not been too much imagination on the part of the toy maker.

Also, I was reading the benifits of forward swept wings on the wiki page - is there anything that gives a slight more technical explanation of why the FSWs give these benifits that is still understandable to someone who isn't an aeronautical engineer?

Yes, YouTube comments are usually most annoying, especially when nationalism is involved. Know-nothing 13 year-olds sounding off ad nauseum.

For FSW stuff, I'd just google and browse till you find material you like. Modern aerodynamics is a complicated topic though. No doubt you'll learn something as a result anyway. Have fun.

Cheers, Neilster

< Message edited by Neilster -- 6/22/2007 3:05:47 PM >

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 23

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/22/2007 10:16:44 PM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredk

Thanks for the link Neilster, very cool - although I wish I could block out the comments at the bottom of the youtube pages - they usually give me a headache.

Yes, I may be dating myself as a youngster here, but I did have that toy about the time the X-29 development was going on. So it may have not been too much imagination on the part of the toy maker.

Also, I was reading the benifits of forward swept wings on the wiki page - is there anything that gives a slight more technical explanation of why the FSWs give these benifits that is still understandable to someone who isn't an aeronautical engineer?

FSW's help some designs with weight balance.

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 24

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/22/2007 10:19:59 PM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredk

Eh, i think they're both ugly as sin, but the engine nacelle (flight engineers fill me in on the real technical term here) humps really put the '23 into its own special category of disgusting asthetics. Surprised so many people find the look of it more pleasing than the -22.

Jeez...tough audience.

What do you think of the looks of the S-37 Berkut?

Cheers, Neilster

What's with those pods extending out behind the AC from the back end ? Different lengths ?

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 25

RE: Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II - 6/23/2007 2:35:54 AM

Fredk

Posts: 75
Joined: 3/4/2007
Status: offline

Jeffrey, one is a radar boom and the other houses the landing chute if I remember correctly.

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)

Post #: 26

Page: [1]

All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II

Page: [1]

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

1.391

Slitherine

Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II