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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/18/2007 9:15:06 PM   
Rebel Yell


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quote:

ORIGINAL: swift

ahhhhh if you only would see what there all is in the beta


If only....


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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/18/2007 11:42:31 PM   
fochinell

 

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Another day, another outbreak of insane rage at Evil Galactic Darklord HQ:

Firstly, yet another attempt to dodge the diabolic weather (and I mean weather) ends up with two lead B-17 groups taking on the might of the Luftwaffe instead of the ten I had planned. At least all the escorts took off this time.

More outrage and tears over the bombing, as my attempt to hit the Krupp Germania Werft UFAC north-east of Kiel (777,145) ends up flying south of the target to hit the invisible Neumunster Flugzeugwerke; this seems to happen every time I try and attack that target.

Then some typically useless medium bomber attacks on factories in Italy (and tactical targets in Holland) end up with excessive bomber losses to Flak.

The life of a galactic Dark Lord is never an easy one. Time to execute some of my unfortunate subordinates to improve my mood.

OK, time for StrategyTalk, that section of the forum where I explain the tricks I try and use as Allies for targeting.

Firstly, until the 8th AF get the capability (size of bomber force and long-range escorts), BC need to do some of the work hitting strategic targets. The large RUBBER, STEEL and CHEM factories are useful targets that H2S-lead BC raids should hit. I use 5 Group to do this, while the rest of BC hit the larger RR targets or ports in urban areas to build up the terror score. In all cases high morale leading units are needed, with about 4 Groups of B-17 or more to stand a chance of doing damage if your lead unit doesn't nail the target in daylight.

Target systems worth substantial effort are, in my opinion, RUBBER and STEEL, followed by CHEM. A few good raids on the really big factories can really hurt these critical industries, while they have subsidiary factories within tactical bomber range which can supplement your critical dependence upon the 8th and 15th AF to do SB damage. I've hit POWER before, but there are just too many well-distributed sites to manage to sustain serious damage before repair rates pull it out of critical damage. At the beginning of the game your bomber force is too small to sustain a realistic campaign against a large number of targets, so concentration pays off.

I've tried AFAC and (in my last game with Werner) EFAC, but while I think they can cause some useful annoyance and disrupt Axis aircraft production, they can't cripple it - largely due to the poor bombing accuracy involved once the sites get substantive Flak defence (and Werner sticks to his word on Flak limits).

The only game where I think SB targetting really paid off against a human opponent was when I went after RUBBER with extreme ruthlessness and repetition while building up TERROR (this meant hitting RUBBER sites all the way out to extreme range with every bombing force available - 2TAF Mossie FB's, Typhoons, even P-47 fighter-bombing - as often as possible to keep them all over 90% damage) and then using my increasing forces to hit CHEM and ARM factories while keeping RUBBER critical.

I was turning most of the urban areas of Germany black in that game by launching maximum-effort BC raids with creep-back factored in to ensure bombing concentration (e.g. plot waves of bombers to look like an intersecting fan across the area of the city you want to devastate, as creep-back will see succeeding bomber units bombing back along the line of approach - you don't want to hit black areas of devastation while some areas remain untouched). In my last couple of games with Werner I've gone down to using one Group of BC per night; the level of additional terror damage is lower, but the morale drop with BC units is substantial and you will end up with units constantly hitting open country rather than the biggest city if they get below 40%. Using 20% of BC every night also reduces attrition to miniscule levels while Werner risks high attritional losses to my NI's plotted over active NJG AF's or chickens out of sending up his night-fighters entirely.

This time round I'm going to hit a variety of systems, but with a concentration on transportation targets which should pay off with a good SB and TERROR score. But first I'm going to have some fun allowing the 8th AF to fail against some specific targets like the UFACs and maybe ball-bearings with a blood-bath or two at Schweinfurt. Yee-haah!



< Message edited by fochinell -- 6/18/2007 11:57:17 PM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/20/2007 9:17:38 PM   
wernerpruckner


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23rd September 1943
´
good weather - lots of action

In Italy Gavin attacked various targets - RR Rome & L´Aquila, POWER Papigno Velino & Narni, PORT Pescara and the ARM Settebagni

Also in the West several heavy raids: RR Bremerhaven & Utrecht, AFAC Neumünster ( an old targeting bug - this future site is often attacked when someone attacks a certain UFAC site - there are/ were several such bugs in the game ), PORT Dunkirk, A/F Woensdrecht & Deelen.

BC was once again very active and bombed Bologna and Hamm
There was also the usual Berlin mossiebomber strike....

49:90 losses


24th September 1943

weather !!! resting day !
score is 2/6/10 ( AS/IND/TERROR)


25th September

weather is getting better, and the attacks go on.
Italy: RR Rome & Ancona & Littoria, STEEL Nero Montoro, POWER Papignollelino
West: RR Hohenbudberg, POWER Interencaut, STEEL Lambernart, RUBBER SASIC
BC: Cologne/Kalk

21:78 losses

here a picture of my aces - Hajo still alive, despite of the lurking NIs above his airbase




Attachment (1)

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/21/2007 11:31:56 AM   
fochinell

 

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25th September 1943 another bad day at Supreme Evil Dark Lord HQ. Firstly the lead bomber/weather "feature" kicks in yet again and only 4 PFF B-17's go on the planned subsidiary 8th AF RR raid. Werner rightfully sees no need to bother with such a small bombing attack, ignores it and concentrates on a 2TAF supporting raid where the Spitfires fall out of the sky like wet tissue paper yet again (36 lost) . The life of a galactic Dark Lord is never an easy one

SB damage has hit a plateau from which it will be difficult to budge it while the weather remains so bad. This is disappointing as I was counting on getting to about 8 SB score during September before the full autumnal weather shafted me again. . Terror should continue to slowly accumulate as BC hits some of the smaller towns which as yet have escaped their notice.

Still, P-47D supplies are sufficient to upgrade the 353rd FG, so things aren't totally bad.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/24/2007 8:35:42 PM   
wernerpruckner


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26.9.1943:

good weather
several bigger attacks...and my Luftwaffe got a bloody nose

Italy:
RR Rome/Tiburtina & Ancona & Fabriano and A/F Perugia
Italy is turning cherry-red beyond Florence....and there is not much I can do against it.

West:
STEEL August Thyssen ( main attack of the day ), CHEM St.Gobain, A/F Longuenesse & Woensdrecht, RUBBER Bergougman and RR St.Pol sur Mer

Night:
Mainz and Ravenna

63:71...very bad ratio this early in the war



27.9.1943:

All action in Italy, first raid from the now active Sardinia air bases.

POWER Narni, STEEL Nero Montero, RR Rome Littorio and Fabriano

The Stab units around Rome did very good this turn - Gavins Aircobra pilots are not pleased with his leadership.

1:32 losses


28.9.1943

resting turn for the Luftwaffe, not really good weather but Gavin flies several low level daylight sorties

RR Serqueneux, STEEL Lambernart, ARM Vlaardinge, PORT Le Trait

And in the night he attacked Schweinfurt

0:4 losses
major shutteling for the German forces.....maybe something to surprise Gavin

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/25/2007 7:39:25 PM   
fochinell

 

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Highlights so far were a destructive raid by the 8th AF on the Ruhr - one of the interim-level raids featuring heavy escort of a single, medium-sized force to a short-range target.

Then in Italy the Airacobra massacre on 27th, when a P-39 bombing mission covering the path of the return leg of an A-20 raid strafes an empty A/F in the path of the pursuing 109's, who then get to feast on the flak cripples.

Supply of P-38L's is now sufficient for P-38H fighter squadrons in the 12th AF to re-equip, starting with the squadrons of the 31st FG. The P-38H's freed in this process will then re-equip the P-39 groups in the 12th AF; the AI anticipated this by re-equipping 81st FG. Normally the automatic upgrade is a real pain but for once it does what I want, as Airaoobra losses have been even higher than normal and sustaining 3 FG's on them is problematic. Besides, I really need those longer-ranged P-38H's to reach Werner's A/F's in Italy, now that OKL has implemented their courageous policy of retreating their Gruppen out of range of the mighty P-39's

Other activity in the MTO includes moving the 12th AF B-24 and B-26 Groups (6 and 4, respectively) alongside the P-38 squadrons to the Sardinian bases as they open up to allow strikes to the north-west of Italy to be mounted.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/26/2007 11:42:44 AM   
fochinell

 

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OK, here's the situation at the end of September 1943 in terms of losses and top-scoring Minions of Doom.

First, those losses; weather has really restricted things this month, with only a couple of major deep penetration 8th AF attacks.








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< Message edited by fochinell -- 6/26/2007 11:43:46 AM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/26/2007 11:44:31 AM   
fochinell

 

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Now for the top-scoring Minions of Doom:




The leading units are:

8th AF top three: 78th FG (P-47D) 72 kills; 56th FG (P-47D) 59 kills, 20th FG (P-38L) 56 kills, 19 Sqn (SPit IX) 23 kills.
9th AF top: 66 Sqn (Spit IX) 7 kills.
2 TAF top by type: 416 Sqn RCAF (Spit IX) 18 kills, 302 Polish Sqn (Spit Vb) 16 kills.
12th AF top by type: 95th FS (P-38H) 22 kills, 350th FG (P-39) 3 kills. Three of the four P-40 groups have one kill each, with the 81st FG (P-38H) on 2 kills.
Med Air Cmd by type: 145 Sqn (Spit IX) 12 kills, 93 Sqn (Spit Vb) 10 kills. None of the P-40 squadrons have a single kill.

Night-fighters: none of the MTO sqns have been active. Top scoring unit is 68 Sqn (Mossie NF II) 13 kills.

As you can see, the range problem in the MTO has severely limited the action since OKL displaced their units further north, with the P-38H fighter squadrons doing most of the fighting. Weather has really limited things for the 8th AF as well, so the overall kill claims and losses are pretty low.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by fochinell -- 6/26/2007 12:01:03 PM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/26/2007 1:41:01 PM   
Hard Sarge


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You guys are bloody

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/26/2007 9:04:31 PM   
wernerpruckner


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bloody....this game ain´t bloody
you have not seen one of the games with me as Allied CinC

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/26/2007 9:15:23 PM   
wernerpruckner


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29.9.1943

good weather once again...

Italy:POWER Cotilia & Papigno Velino; PORT Piombino & Ancona; A/F Rieti & Perugia; CHEM Bussi Elec Chem

West: BBFAC Kugelfischer & Fichtel&Sachs & Vereinigte#2; STEEL Ougre Maribaye & John Cockerell; A/F Venlo

Night: Hannover & Berlin

A deep strike to Schweinfurt BBFAC industries by the 8th AF....heavy losses on both sides...but his escort were able to keep my fighters of the heavies for most of the time

89:130 losses


30.9.1943

Gavin has stil enough power to go for some other ajor sites...

Italy: RR Bologna - my forces fought an excellent battle here ; STEEL Nero Montoro ( he does not seem to recognize that he has attacked it a dozen times... )A/F Grosseto; RR Rome/Tiburtina & L´Aquila

West:
CHEM IG Farben Knapsack; STEEL Stahlwerke Krieger; ARM Deutsche Eisenwerke; POWER Oissel & Mazingarbe; PORT Dunkirk

Night:
Pisa, Halle

41:96 losses

1st October 1943

resting turn for the Luftwaffe, only a few Allied missions
RR Ghent
BC attacked Wilhelmshaven and the ARM Alkett Borsigwalde ( with Mossiebombers....)

0:5 losses

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/26/2007 10:09:57 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fochinell
RR's are important for terror damage and supplies, as I hate raids against TRP targets - too much Flak attrition for practically zero result. AF's will be hit, though...


I generally do a similar thing but in the old version Supplies never get affected to LCU's = even if all of Italy is burning Red the Gustav Line has more cans of sardines than a fishmonger would know what to do with.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/26/2007 10:13:48 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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2:1  losses in Axis Favour = Allies are doing pretty good IMO. I've rarely seen in a PBEM game less than a 1.5:1 loss ratio (unless it's Nik playing me mind you)

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/27/2007 3:52:22 PM   
fochinell

 

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2:1 losses in Axis Favour = Allies are doing pretty good IMO. I've rarely seen in a PBEM game less than a 1.5:1 loss ratio (unless it's Nik playing me mind you)

The impact of losses are contingent upon 2 factors; the attrition inflicted on the Axis aircraft (which isn't necessarily reflected in the AS score) and the bombing results.

At the moment, BC's campaign of constant medium-sized strikes on urban RR targets is doing better than expected, so my bombing score is better than the overall losses (which are primarily driven by day combat rather than the night campaign) would normally indicate. So my SB score is reasonably good.

The attritional losses are excellent so far in terms of losses inflicted/suffered, as a 2:1 loss rate gets much closer to 1:1 when the Flak is taken out of the equation. The only problem is that while this is efficient, the scale of the losses are insufficient. As the Allied player you can afford to lose a lot more than I've done so far, and even a 2.5:1 loss rate in favour of the Axis is actually in the Allies favour if the scale of the losses is sufficient. In other words, killing 100 Axis aircraft for the loss of 250 Allied in one turn can still represent an Allied victory if the pressure is kept up on the longer term and the Axis loss rate remains high. On the other hand, a loss of 10 Axis fighters for 15 Allied in one turn is nice for the Allied player, but not decisive.

So, in my opinion, the bottom line for the Allied player is a good balance of efficiency (the loss ration) and scale. Now get back out there and die for the glory of Galactic Evil.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/28/2007 1:09:49 PM   
davidjruss


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How are you both coping with the scrolling etc playing this old game on fast modern pc's ?

DavidR

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/28/2007 6:23:58 PM   
wernerpruckner


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BtR does not have a too big problem with scrolling speed.
I control/play most of it with the quick-map or with the various lists.

also you can play it in full screen

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/28/2007 9:22:01 PM   
zasgard

 

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I'm diggin all these reports...man!....when is this game coming out?

Zas

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/28/2007 9:47:13 PM   
Mad Onion

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zasgard

I'm diggin all these reports...man!....when is this game coming out?

Zas


Good question. Next please.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/29/2007 8:48:22 PM   
fochinell

 

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The scrolling isn't much of a problem for the allied player, but it does bug sometimes during the planning phase. But that's more down to the small screen size involved (changing waypoints or escort details and then attempting to use the visible map) - which is a real sometimes. I don't think the speed of the game on newer PC's is a problem; but I can remember running major attacks against the AI, going out to town and then coming back to find BC stragglers still limping back to base.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/30/2007 5:52:28 PM   
wernerpruckner


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nothing important happened through the last few turns....so I only post the losses

10/2/43
53:101

10/3/43
3:44
Invasion of Corsica

10/4/43
4:10
bad weather

10/5/43
2:13
more bad weather

10/6/43
8:56
Luftwaffe still sleeping

10/7/43
21:79
most of it tactical stuff

10/8/43
0:0
weather again
score is 1/8/10

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/30/2007 6:29:10 PM   
wernerpruckner


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just had a look through my units....


more than half of my German units are understrenght  
I´d just need several weeks of low intensity warfare just to fill them up
( around 600 pilots short at the moment )

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/30/2007 8:36:47 PM   
fochinell

 

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nothing important happened through the last few turns....

Including yet another day on 7th October 1943 where the lead bomber units take off but the rest don't bother and go off down the pub 8th AF and BC suffer from this in the same turn; but then I am trying to run missions in dodgy weather. The alternative is to run none.


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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/30/2007 8:51:05 PM   
Hard Sarge


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you know, you getting this way too much ?

are you sure you got the game on speed 1 ?

I know at higher speeds, just the lead unit will take off ????




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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/30/2007 9:08:48 PM   
wernerpruckner


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game speed is usually 1
except for very low intensity turns with lots of recce.

Gavin loves the weather in this game

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/30/2007 9:12:26 PM   
wernerpruckner


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10/9/1943

several heavy raids...
in the morning a Bf109G6/R6 unit got mauled while it tried to intercept some raids in the Milano area ( 15 lost Bf109G6/R6 for just one !!! killed bomber )

Later that day many tactical raids in Italy.

In the West several coastline attacks and later the raids of the day by the 8th AF against the UFACs around Bremen.....what a bloody mess !!

113 German lost A/C for 166 killed Allied ones ( but there were some B17 with them )

< Message edited by swift -- 7/1/2007 10:37:27 PM >


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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/30/2007 9:59:04 PM   
Hard Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: swift

game speed is usually 1
except for very low intensity turns with lots of recce.

Gavin loves the weather in this game


roger, but from what he is reporting, is not how the game is suppost of worked, if the raid is delayed, the whole raid is delayed, so the raid either takes off, or it does not, the fighters that do not take off at the same time as the raid, has a chance to be delayed, not the bombers that should be in the air already, for the bombers it is all or nothing

he shouldn't be having the lead group take off, and the rest of the raid abort

I have seen raids cancelled because of weather, or be delayed, but not part of the raid take off and the rest of it aborts

I just ran a turn, in BoB41, the ITs took off on time, and then the 6 follow up GE raids all delayed, 40 some minutes behind time, before they took off (the Its got slaughtered)

but none of them, only had a lead unit take off

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 6/30/2007 10:08:34 PM   
wernerpruckner


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quote:

roger, but from what he is reporting, is not how the game is suppost of worked, if the raid is delayed, the whole raid is delayed, so the raid either takes off, or it does not, the fighters that do not take off at the same time as the raid, has a chance to be delayed, not the bombers that should be in the air already, for the bombers it is all or nothing


don´t start to sound like JCL - you know that happens fairly often in BtR ( but I must say I have not seen it that often in BoB )

usually it is BC that has this problem ( around 10% of all raids ) and for the 15th and 8th it is much lesser problem ( around 2% of the raids )

It seems to me it happens more if you have differen ttypes of A/C in a raid

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 7/1/2007 12:50:56 PM   
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don´t start to sound like JCL - you know that happens fairly often in BtR ( but I must say I have not seen it that often in BoB )

I don't recall seeing it in BoB, but it usually happens to me several times in BtR. It's happening a lot more in this game than usual, but then the weather is particularly bad in this game - at at least more frequently marginal than usual.

usually it is BC that has this problem ( around 10% of all raids ) and for the 15th and 8th it is much lesser problem ( around 2% of the raids )

BC do seem to have the problem more often, but I tend to see it a little more often with the 8th/15th AFs than 1 in 50 missions; but certainly less than 1 in 20 (5%)

It seems to me it happens more if you have differen ttypes of A/C in a raid

I deliberately don't mix types on daylight raids (e.g. I don't mix B-24D's with B-24J's, or B-17F's with B-17G's). I think the explanation may be down to differing weather over the relevant bases; my hunch is that the lead unit departure or delay is governed by cloud cover over the departure point, while the following units take off/delay/abort depending upon the cloud over over their bases. But that's just a guess.

If Werner sticks to a clock speed of 1 I don't know what is causing it.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 7/1/2007 1:55:56 PM   
fochinell

 

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In the West several coastline attacks and later the raids of the day by the 8th AF against the UFACs around Bremen.....what a bloody mess !!

113 German lost A/C for 166 killed Allied ones ( but there were some B17 with them )




This exposes another "feature" of BtR, if my reading of the replay is correct: 2 forces of 160 B-17F's each follow the same fairly direct path out to the Bremen UFACs with heavy escort, all units bomb and return. The major fight is on the egress route (back along the ingress route in northern Holland), where around 24 B-17F's go down after fighter attack. At this point the icons in the replay give out (oh, for flight boxes instead of plane icons), but the remaining 97 B-17's which go down seem to go down more than 2 hours after they bombed back over the Borkum area. Even the stragglers should have been limping back to East Anglia at that point, not flying unescorted over the Dutch islands back towards their target.

121 B-17's lost in total. Ouch!

Werner can confirm or disprove this, but it looks like the bombers returned to the UK coast and then flew back out over their route, doubling back without orders. Although it's against our house rules to intercept returning raids, I can't blame Werner for doing it this time as I had enough bomber units available to send a raid down the track of the first raid and I've done this before; I suspect he attacked what he legitimately thought was a new raid.

However, it means my bomber losses go up by more than 300% through no fault of my own.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 7/1/2007 2:11:25 PM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 7/1/2007 2:31:55 PM   
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from what I have seen, we got most of this double back corrected, but every now and then it pops back in, which Harley thinks he knows what is causeing it, so it should be another one we can cross off the list of old bugs

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