AAR swift vs fochinell (Full Version)

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wernerpruckner -> AAR swift vs fochinell (6/4/2007 5:15:48 PM)


Gavin (aka fochinell ) is back from bringing some culture into the US ( = lecturing and researching somewhere over there )
and he could not stand to wait for the new version - so we are back starting a new PBEM while waiting.

version: BTR1.05x6 with an improved OB/OA ( copyright JeanClaudeLorusso !!)

Gavin and I are playing BTR for a long time - we had 2 PBEMs going on ( at the same time [8|] ) - those games ended due to a family matter on my side...and now I do not find the saves anymore!!

Gavin plays the Evil Allied Horde while my valiant forces will try to defend Europe.



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/4/2007 5:20:28 PM)

I do not know yet if this will be an jointAAR - so do not expect too deep inside peeks at the moment !!

pre turn 1:

I have 200 operation points for moving A/C and AA around
I start with dispersing the units from the usual 1st turn attck A/Fs like Schipol.

I do not yet change any production, as this should be an more realistic game - there will be some tweaking, but do not expect the jets before their time in RL in front units.



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/4/2007 7:17:48 PM)

turn 1:

the picture is for you to see how many targets there are in BTR !!

The weather was perfect for the Axis forces in Europe - fog and clouds over the UK and Germany. Only one small sweep to Schipol was managed by Gavin - in the bad weather and due to some minor fights it did not reach the target.


In Italy the weather was much better [:(] and so Gavin was able to put lots of A/C into the air

[image]local://upfiles/16527/769E12A0C99F4355BCE126F794F5C750.jpg[/image]



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/4/2007 7:19:59 PM)

combat in Italy:

as you will see in the next few pictures that there were some minor battles above Italy, put I do not think that Gavin tried to put many A/C into the air, he also was probably moving lots of stuff around

[image]local://upfiles/16527/0A966F4E9C2D4BBCA49FD173FF49F675.jpg[/image]



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/4/2007 7:25:23 PM)

The Allied bombed - more or less successfully - two railyards, two airbases and one port.
The combat was a draw - 32:34 losses
most of my 32 losses were Italian pilots, with their obsolete A/C,
but my elite German pilots were able to kill 6 Fortresses and 7 A20C Boston bombers.
But I lost my best pilot of the day during the action - Ob.Fw.-A.Seibert was able to shoot down one Fortress and one Lightning before he was killed by the MG fire of another Fortress bomber.

During the night there was lots of radio intercepts, but only a bunch of night intruders crossed the channel - therefore I let my pilots grounded!

[image]local://upfiles/16527/3693D31B787D4745AA4C046B09A781A1.jpg[/image]



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/4/2007 7:26:31 PM)

an alternate picture of the picture above with A/C ON:

[image]local://upfiles/16527/9E13CE63CF52449CAE49C1B186D119CF.jpg[/image]



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/4/2007 7:32:38 PM)


after the turn I dispersed the units a bit more - now there are nearly no airbases with more than two units on them.

I also had an look on my production:
( A/C / produced / ( pool ) )
Do217N 1 (0)
Bf109G-6/R6 10 (0)
Bf109G-6U4N 1 (1)
Bf109G-6 51 (30)
Fw190G 1 (1)
Fw190A 16 (8)
Fw190F 1 (1)
Fw190A-8/R8 4 (4)
Bf110G-2 8 (8)
Me210C 4 (4)
Me410A2/R2 3 (3)
Ju88C-6 4 (0)
Bf110G-4 9 (0)

there are several understrenght units at the moment, but they will fill up soon.



fochinell -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/4/2007 9:04:17 PM)

The attempted Schipol strafe was the token effort made to catch the LW on the first turn bases - having played Swiftie before I didn't expect OKL to leave too many units on their starting bases. Other than that OKL is correct to assume that some major unit shuffling is going on. Major attacks should begin in a couple of turns. Bad weather defeated BC before they could take off...



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/4/2007 9:48:04 PM)


the second turn - still very limited Allied action.

In Italy Gavin paid for his two sweeps dearly. The Kittyhawk and SpitfireVB pilots are not too happy with their new CinC - the POWs complained about suicide missions [:-][:D]

In the north limited action around Antwerp - here the Allied forces targeted the two big ARM sites and on A/F.

My forces lost 11 A/C ( all of them Bf109Gs and Fw190As ) for 38 enemy A/C ( most of them Spitfires and Kittyhawks )

[image]local://upfiles/16527/DC5D07311DE144B6AC2190F04EF0B21F.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/4/2007 11:59:58 PM)

Swift, you know you are not allowed to pick on Galvins Spits !!!!




fochinell -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 1:28:02 AM)

quote:

In Italy Gavin paid for his two sweeps dearly. The Kittyhawk and SpitfireVB pilots are not too happy with their new CinC - the POWs complained about suicide mission


Hopefully in the new version they will actually fight back. [sigh...]




wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 9:21:38 AM)

Another day without any major Allied action - the weather is getting worse [:)]

The Allied forces bombed Antwerp (RR) and sweeped the A/Fs Soesterberg and Gilze Rijen.
As you can see in the picture, Gavins timing was very good!! The I/JG 1 was caught during landing [X(] and most of the Fw190 losses this day ( 19 !! ) happened here.

In Italy Gavin tried something similar and attacked Neaples (RR) and sweeped the A/F Castrovillari three times - here he lost a few A/C because a light railroad Flak unit is stationed here; but he also scored a few ground kills against the II/JG 77.

Today my forces lost 35 A/C including 8 killed ( and 20 damaged ) on the ground.
The Allied forces losses are a bit heavier with 57 lost A/C ( 17/158 due to flak )

[image]local://upfiles/16527/8C08001F5309488A85713C4D2EA75348.jpg[/image]



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 9:24:01 AM)

quote:

Swift, you know you are not allowed to pick on Galvins Spits !!!!


[:'(] I did not pick at them - I just run over them - they happened to be in the way [8|]



von Shagmeister -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 11:42:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fochinell

quote:

In Italy Gavin paid for his two sweeps dearly. The Kittyhawk and SpitfireVB pilots are not too happy with their new CinC - the POWs complained about suicide mission


Hopefully in the new version they will actually fight back. [sigh...]




Sorry for butting in and being off topic.

Fighter-bombers do fight back now, even had a Mosquito FB.VI shoot down a Bf 109G-6 the other day after being bounced.

Much more realistic now, no more 30-40 Typhoons being hacked out of the air and doing nothing back. Losses when fighter-bombers are bounced now more realistic too.



fochinell -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 12:39:50 PM)

Fighter-bombers do fight back now... Losses when fighter-bombers are bounced now more realistic too.

Great. Now all HS and his team of willing slaves need to do is to get the Spitfires to fight back... [sm=sad-1361.gif]



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 12:49:00 PM)

quote:

Fighter-bombers do fight back now... Losses when fighter-bombers are bounced now more realistic too.

Great. Now all HS and his team of willing slaves need to do is to get the Spitfires to fight back...


they do - at least during beta testing....some wonderful new toys [:'(] but I wont say....



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 12:53:36 PM)

good weather over the Channel.....this calls for a major effort day....and here they come..

targets are once again in the Low Countries - all of Brussels railyards are hit
also the nearby city of Arrschot was bombed - there are no military installations nearby...so this was poor terror raid against the people of Holland

These were also two sweeps to the Brussels area.

[image]local://upfiles/16527/E6BBD3F07EC6403994123AE35A263166.jpg[/image]



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 12:55:34 PM)

The heavy bombers of the 8th AF scored also a few air to air kills....also the news about their new bomb-sight seem to be correct.
THe Brussels RRs were hit hard [X(]

[image]local://upfiles/16527/BA8F69AA23BA47B2BF582382CBE51713.jpg[/image]



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 12:58:14 PM)

Now to the Italian front.
Gavin continues to attack coastal targets and a few A/Fs - Neaples, Battipaglia, Sepni, Crotone; also some hopeless sweeps were flows....

[image]local://upfiles/16527/A3AB773A6DD6456694C8B2A2571FE3FA.jpg[/image]



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 1:03:19 PM)

At theend of the day the Luftwaffe and its Allies have lost 36 A/C with no losses on the ground ( two A/C were damaged )
But as there is the so called SAS bug in BTR105x6 or is it 106x5 [sm=00000734.gif] some losses are expected in near future.

The Allied losses were a bit higher, but they were only fighter losses - it is important to kill some Fortresses !!! 84 lost A/C with 33/221 due to AA

and now a look on my best pilots - an Italian is leading with 4 kills and an exp of 47 - must have been the easy KIttyhawk kills [:'(]


[image]local://upfiles/16527/AD18AE2A0EFF4DF593F07E39CF84F6FC.jpg[/image]



fochinell -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 4:36:18 PM)

At theend of the day the Luftwaffe and its Allies have lost 36 A/C with no losses on the ground

My airfield strafing was never too hot - last turn was an exception to the rule. My cunning plan of losing millions of fighters while the bombers slip through to try to do some SB damage has been exposed, but I'd still prefer to lose slightly less fighters. I felt the lack of a "sweep", as opposed to "strafe" mission this turn, as my Fighter Command Spit Vb sweeps plotted over Brussels as top cover for the Forts decided to drop down from 25,000 feet to strafe the Brussels rail yards instead just when OKL's interceptors finally turned up. Good move, guys.[sm=00000018.gif].



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 5:20:30 PM)

21st August 1943:

only a few Allied daylight missions...nothing important.

BC flew its first bombing mission - my Wilde Sau fighter got distracted by the Wellington ECM planes.

No German losses during the turn, but it seems that the SAS got one Bf109G-6.
5 Allied A/C were lost, 4 of them due to AA.

[image]local://upfiles/16527/59EBFEE1CB6C44E995D1FFD042D0E9D6.jpg[/image]



Hard Sarge -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 9:10:52 PM)

a sort of just in case

I had run a sweep, that I was going to show some snapshots of, but didn't want to steal the thread

had a Cane IV as the lead, with another Cane IV and 2 Whirlwind Squadrons on Close Escourt (these will act if they on lead, so all will sweep) then I place a lot number of Tiffies on High Escourt for protection

odd battles, a 190 got damaged when it bounced the escourts, then a Tiffie got shot down when it counter attacked the 190s

then the battle settled down to a good back and forth, between the escourts and the Jerries as they tried to get though to the strike force

the sweep was poor, heavy AA fire and lot of damaged and a few shot downs, but then the Canes and Winds let loose and got into the fight

one of the northern 190 Gruppen, got into the back trail and made a mess of a nice battle, picking off a number of damaged and retireing planes, but they had flown too far to stay in the battle too long


but over all, the Tiffies did well, the Canes traded losses and the Winds kicked !

so, yea, sweeps will fight back now (even more so, if you put sweepers on Escourt with them)




wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 10:40:33 PM)

22nd August:

The Allied Forces start to make bigger and more powerful attacks - my forces in Italy were not able to respond to all of those attacks.

MAin targets in Italy were once again coastal sites, but there was also a deeper attack to Bari and surroundings on the Adriatic coast

[image]local://upfiles/16527/42C61EB6948B4F2CB4EC5179BFC51B72.jpg[/image]



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 10:42:29 PM)

In the West the Allied forces continued to hit the peaceful Low Countries and the cities of Antwerp and Ghent

[image]local://upfiles/16527/87F559D18F9548ED9DCBEA390BF583FF.jpg[/image]



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/5/2007 10:46:02 PM)

In the night Bomber Command attacked one of the major RRs near the Ruhr valley.
There were lots of sightings by my nightfighters, but only very few attacks and even fewer kills.

At the end of the day I had lost 33 A/C ( 21 of them Bf109G-6) for another 73 Allied A/C and once again many Spitfire VBs ( 36 !! )

[image]local://upfiles/16527/21E758D9DB07412080579B8EF0CF01BD.jpg[/image]



fochinell -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/6/2007 12:28:44 PM)


At the end of the day I had lost 33 A/C ( 21 of them Bf109G-6) for another 73 Allied A/C and once again many Spitfire VBs ( 36 !! )

I'd forgotten how heavily the Spit Vb's got hammered in the early stages if you use them seriously. More annoying was the bug (or was it weather?) that made my B-17 raid attack the road junction rather than Foggia RR; I seem to remember this being a bug similar to that UFAC near Kiel which I could never bomb despite repeated missions to it.

Time for a rest turn and a chance to replenish those fighter losses while the weather clamps down. At the moment Supreme Allied Command is moving the preferred aircraft types to the preferred units. For example, the light A-20 bombload plus the abysmal bombing accuracy of the mediums means I prefer to allocate them to the 12th AF while the heavier bombload of the B-25 goes to the RAF medium bomber units (24 x 6 x 500lb making them fractionally more useful than 24 x 4 x 500lb in the A-20C). I've tried using Stirlings with their heavier bombloads to make the RAF tactical bomber units more effective before, but I can't remember if they made any difference. At the moment my main fighter problem is replacing the Spit Vb losses, which I normally do by converting the 12th AF Spit units to the P-38 while upgrading the RAF Spit Vbs to the IX. I also convert a couple of MAC Spit Vb squadrons to the P-40 for their higher bombload as fighter-bombers when the flow of P-38's is sufficient to re-equip the 317-319 FS.

Tactically, I'm prepared to do some deep-penetration unescorted raids when the weather is right, but until then short-distance tactical raids to the Bay of Naples and occupied territories are the order of the day. BC is just going to tick over generating terror damage (although with the prospect of some SB score by targetting the larger Axis RR sites) while 5 Group will do some (attempted) precision bombing in the near future.



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/6/2007 1:10:34 PM)

23rd August 1943:

as Gavin said - a resting turn for the Luftwaffe.
Many enemy recce missions were flown - also two nightbombing raids ( Genoa and Saarbrücken ) with only 3 enemy A/C being lost.


Gavin seems to prefer total bomb load -
when I play the Allied side I prefer as one of the most important things high morale before fatigue before experience !!
I also think ( that is only my opinion ) that it makes a big difference at what altitude what kind of target is being attacked ( the same also for the flytime/range )


on the Axis side it is also Morale which should be kept as high as possible - but with the time of the game an Axis player will use lower and lower morale units.
For example: in 1943 I only try to use 70+ morale dayfighter units; but in late 44 it will always be 50+ or even lower.
With NF units I also use only high morale units - but in difference to the day fighter, I use only 80+ morale units for night interceptions throughout the war.



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/6/2007 2:17:45 PM)

24th August 1943

better weather = more raids.....

Western Front:
The Allied started with a Typhoon raid against the RR Rouen - my fighters got there not fast enough ( starting delay was 16 min due to the low radio activity )

Later a big Marauder raid aginst the RR Eindhoven - the Allied escorts were very agressiv here and it ended with an tactical victory for the Allied pilots with 22 German A/C lost here!!

Southern Front:

the typical stuff with many raids ( look at the pic )
But as long as there are many obsolete A/C used here ( on both sides ) it could get very bloody ( hehehe [:D] 25 Aircobras killed here )

two Italian units were hit hard ( morale now below 30 !! )
I will start to pull some units back to northern Italy sites for resting.


[image]local://upfiles/16527/4874CFE1560F49D9A02BBDA2223398C1.jpg[/image]



wernerpruckner -> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell (6/6/2007 2:19:59 PM)

BC was active this night and made an big raid against the Bunawerke Schkopau (RUBBER).
once again many sightings, but only few kills.
NIs got lucky a few times.

[image]local://upfiles/16527/D14DBED0F86043F096E753A9C487168B.jpg[/image]



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