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*** World War II Documentaries *** - 6/30/2007 11:55:11 PM

Warfare1

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I was just wondering what WWII documentaries my fellow wargamers would recommend.

New war movies are few and far between, so I am looking for some great documentaries to watch during the summer months.

I hear that World at War is good. However, when I read up on it, mention was made that it is biased: ie more attention is placed on British actions vs American ones. So that Patton is never mentioned and that the Pacific war is given short treatment. Is this a fair assessment?

Thanks.

< Message edited by Warfare1 -- 7/1/2007 1:58:00 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 12:27:09 AM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

However, when I read up on it, mention was made that it is biased: ie more attention is placed on British actions vs American ones. So that Patton is never mentioned and that the Pacific war is given short treatment. Is this a fair assessment?

With regard to bias I'm tempted to say "that would be a refreshing change".

I can't remember that much about it, although it is certainly a British produced series and you wouldn't expect under-representation. The war did start a little earlier for the Brits, though! There was a whole episode on Burma, for example, which you wouldn't have got in a US version, but I don't recall the Pacific being given 'short treatment' (the Brits fought the Japanese too, amazingly enough). There were at least a couple of episodes on the Pacific, the Burma one apart, and there was one on the Japan/China war, too.

I don't remember about Patton's inclusion or otherwise, I'm afraid. It would certainly seem a bit odd if he was left out.

(in reply to Warfare1)

Post #: 2

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 12:36:43 AM

JamesM

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World at War is the best WWII documentary ever made. It gives a balanced view that was and is quite refreshing.

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 12:53:05 AM

KG Erwin

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The "Battlefield" series is pretty good. As a matter of fact, the Guadalcanal episode can be seen on You Tube: start here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOXHiFi5-DA&mode=related&search=

For Pacific-themed documentaries, I also recommend "Heroes of Iwo Jima", which is included in the Flags of Our Fathers/Letters from Iwo Jima box set. This is narrated by Marine vet Gene Hackman, and it gives a full accounting of the two flag raisings on Feb. 23. See http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Flags-Fathers-Five-Disc-Commemorative/dp/B000P1XITE

Another I have is "The Bloody Hills of Peleliu", an excellent History Channel documentary which is also available thru Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Our-Century-Bloody-Hills-Peleliu/dp/B000E371V4

Another video online is the USMC documentary "With The Marines At Tarawa". See http://www.archive.org/details/WiththeMarinesatTarawa

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 7/1/2007 12:59:36 AM >

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 1:43:25 AM

Adam Parker

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Hi Warfare 1,

The boxed version is superb value. This is a series that you'll watch over and again.

Professionally made and edited (no King Tigers here breaking across France in 1940), there are 5 full episodes covering the war with Japan alone. Importantly. there's no waffle or repetition used my many latter series to fill time. World at War sets the benchmark till this day just as Ken Burns would later do with the 19th Century.

I'd say the series' strength is its well spread focus across all combatants. There are episodes exploring the war experience and rise of Germany, Britain, USSR, Japan and the USA.

It's focus on the East Front is as gripping as the Desert, the Atalntic, the Bombing Campaign, the West and the Pacific.

Further, the boxed set is chock full of extra documentaries, if that was at all possible.

First time around, I'd recommend watching each episode in order as its wholistic impact is astounding. The series then becomes a comfortable friend for re-watches of areas wishing to be studied. As for the Pacific, it's where I learned the cry "Banzai!".

(in reply to Warfare1)

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 3:55:18 AM

Warfare1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

However, when I read up on it, mention was made that it is biased: ie more attention is placed on British actions vs American ones. So that Patton is never mentioned and that the Pacific war is given short treatment. Is this a fair assessment?

With regard to bias I'm tempted to say "that would be a refreshing change".

I can't remember that much about it, although it is certainly a British produced series and you wouldn't expect under-representation. The war did start a little earlier for the Brits, though! There was a whole episode on Burma, for example, which you wouldn't have got in a US version, but I don't recall the Pacific being given 'short treatment' (the Brits fought the Japanese too, amazingly enough). There were at least a couple of episodes on the Pacific, the Burma one apart, and there was one on the Japan/China war, too.

I don't remember about Patton's inclusion or otherwise, I'm afraid. It would certainly seem a bit odd if he was left out.

Many thanks for the reply.

The British do know how to make documentaries.

Here is the Amazon.com link. Most reviews are very favourable:

http://www.amazon.com/World-War-30th-Anniversary/dp/B0002F6AH0/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_2_img/102-6923517-1992120

(in reply to Hertston)

Post #: 6

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 3:58:55 AM

Warfare1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jamesm

World at War is the best WWII documentary ever made. It gives a balanced view that was and is quite refreshing.

Thanks. That seems to be the general consensus.

I note that Chapters.ca is offering all 26 episodes of WaW for about $90.00. That's about the same price as the Sopranos Season 6 part one.

(in reply to JamesM)

Post #: 7

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 4:01:49 AM

Warfare1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

The "Battlefield" series is pretty good. As a matter of fact, the Guadalcanal episode can be seen on You Tube: start here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOXHiFi5-DA&mode=related&search=

For Pacific-themed documentaries, I also recommend "Heroes of Iwo Jima", which is included in the Flags of Our Fathers/Letters from Iwo Jima box set. This is narrated by Marine vet Gene Hackman, and it gives a full accounting of the two flag raisings on Feb. 23. See http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Flags-Fathers-Five-Disc-Commemorative/dp/B000P1XITE

Another I have is "The Bloody Hills of Peleliu", an excellent History Channel documentary which is also available thru Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Our-Century-Bloody-Hills-Peleliu/dp/B000E371V4

Another video online is the USMC documentary "With The Marines At Tarawa". See http://www.archive.org/details/WiththeMarinesatTarawa

KG Erwin:

Thanks for the links.

I remember seeing some episodes of the Battlefield series many moons ago on PBS. Excellent series.

Pity the dvds aren't offered in North America.

Battlefield Links:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Battlefield-1/dp/B0007VXZIG/ref=sr_1_2/202-7418648-9776625?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1183249820&sr=1-2

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 8

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 4:04:14 AM

Warfare1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Hi Warfare 1,

The boxed version is superb value. This is a series that you'll watch over and again.

Professionally made and edited (no King Tigers here breaking across France in 1940), there are 5 full episodes covering the war with Japan alone. Importantly. there's no waffle or repetition used my many latter series to fill time. World at War sets the benchmark till this day just as Ken Burns would later do with the 19th Century.

I'd say the series' strength is its well spread focus across all combatants. There are episodes exploring the war experience and rise of Germany, Britain, USSR, Japan and the USA.

It's focus on the East Front is as gripping as the Desert, the Atalntic, the Bombing Campaign, the West and the Pacific.

Further, the boxed set is chock full of extra documentaries, if that was at all possible.

First time around, I'd recommend watching each episode in order as its wholistic impact is astounding. The series then becomes a comfortable friend for re-watches of areas wishing to be studied. As for the Pacific, it's where I learned the cry "Banzai!".

Thanks Adam for the reply.

It does sound like a solid series to get, and although not every documentary can be wholly complete, it does sound like quite a feat to capture all of WWII.

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 9

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 4:09:26 AM

KG Erwin

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Is this the series that was narrated by Laurence Olivier back in the early 70s? Yeah, it's OK, but subsequent research has made the more recent docs more worthwhile. I have several of those episodes on VHS.

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 4:25:44 AM

Warfare1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Is this the series that was narrated by Laurence Olivier back in the early 70s? Yeah, it's OK, but subsequent research has made the more recent docs more worthwhile. I have several of those episodes on VHS.

That's the one. Apparently, many of the people interviewed are now dead.

In addition, once more WWII documents were released in later years, it appears some things in the series weren't quite spot on.

Still, I haven't seen anything so comprehensive on WWII being offered.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 4:30:01 AM

Warfare1

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Hold on.

While I was doing some digging I came across this:

Ken Burns is doing a 15 hour series on WWII that will be aired on PBS in September 2007. If it's anything like his Civil War series, it should be worth watching.

Links:

http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=2784344

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060223/REPOSITORY/602230354/1031

< Message edited by Warfare1 -- 7/1/2007 4:37:07 AM >

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Post #: 12

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 4:52:20 AM

Adam Parker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

Ken Burns is doing a 15 hour series on WWII that will be aired on PBS in September 2007.

It looks like this one will be a limited focus on the "American Experience" using the home-stories of some scattered towns as litmus in an effort to put the likes of Studs Terkel and Ambrose's "Citizen Soldiers" on screen.

One can sense an intent to recreate the spirit of the WW2 "Over There", with the need to educate the US public for further sacrifice in Iraq/The Stans.

Alternately he may go the opposite route, seeing his outrage at the waste of life and focus on death in the Civil War, by reinforcing the lesson that the US WW2 experience had a definable end goal, whereas the "War on Terror" seemingly has none ie: how much should the sacrifice endure?

That will be interesting to see.

(in reply to Warfare1)

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 6:45:17 AM

Neilster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Is this the series that was narrated by Laurence Olivier back in the early 70s? Yeah, it's OK, but subsequent research has made the more recent docs more worthwhile. I have several of those episodes on VHS.

Very little of this series has been made out of date by subsequent research. There is no mention of Enigma but apart from that, the analysis is basically spot on. This is quite possibly the most important documentary series ever made and has received consistently glowing reviews. Given that the vast majority of American-made WW2 documentaries are outrageously ethnocentric, you'll appreciate its broad perspective. The research is first class and the narration is a triumph. Mate, if you don't get it, you're on the drugs.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to KG Erwin)

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 9:32:08 AM

JudgeDredd

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The World at War is the only WWII documentary.

Seriously though, it is awesome. I'm trying to think back and remember if there was any bias, and I'm tempted to say there may well have been, from what I can recollect.

It's hard to say if it's bias though from what I recollect.

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 9:56:29 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

... Given that the vast majority of American-made WW2 documentaries are outrageously ethnocentric...

Here we go with the inevitable American bashing. Thanks, Neilster, you'll undoubtedly succeed in getting this thread locked soon.

BTW, you're welcome for we Yanks keeping the rump of the British Empire alive during the WWII years.

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 10:23:03 AM

Neilster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

... Given that the vast majority of American-made WW2 documentaries are outrageously ethnocentric...

Here we go with the inevitable American bashing. Thanks, Neilster, you'll undoubtedly succeed in getting this thread locked soon.

BTW, you're welcome for we Yanks keeping the rump of the British Empire alive during the WWII years.

It's not American bashing. For whatever reason American documentary makers gloss over everybody else's contribution to Allied victory. That's just a fact (as has been alluded to above by others) and is no slight on Americans in general. The British are simply the best documentary makers.

I'm the first to acknowledge the massive U.S. contribution in WW2 and made no comment disparaging it, so your last point is unjustified.

Cheers, Neilster

< Message edited by Neilster -- 7/1/2007 10:48:55 AM >

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 5:16:42 PM

Ironclad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

The World at War is the only WWII documentary.

Seriously though, it is awesome. I'm trying to think back and remember if there was any bias, and I'm tempted to say there may well have been, from what I can recollect.

It's hard to say if it's bias though from what I recollect.

I wasn't that impressed with the World at War series, mainly because of its failure to give sufficient coverage to the eastern front.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 6:01:32 PM

Neilster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

The World at War is the only WWII documentary.

Seriously though, it is awesome. I'm trying to think back and remember if there was any bias, and I'm tempted to say there may well have been, from what I can recollect.

It's hard to say if it's bias though from what I recollect.

I wasn't that impressed with the World at War series, mainly because of its failure to give sufficient coverage to the eastern front.

Yeah, I thought there could have been some more but the series was made in the early 70s when the Soviet Union was a grudging participant in Western documentary making. At the time, it was lauded for its radical emphasis on the importance of the Eastern Front, so it just goes to show how times have changed. Off the top of my head the episodes dealing with the Eastern Front were Barbarossa, Stalingrad, Red Star, Pincers and Nemesis. The last 2 also had Western and Italian Front action as well but it's a reasonable amount of material.

Cheers, Neilster

< Message edited by Neilster -- 7/1/2007 6:03:38 PM >

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 8:40:23 PM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
BTW, you're welcome for we Yanks keeping the rump of the British Empire alive during the WWII years.

KG

Normally I'm on your side with a fair few arguments on these boards, but you are out of order there, my friend.

You weren't the only "...keep the rump of the British Empire alive" during WWII. There were plenty of British that died for the cause also.

And as Neilster said...he didn't disparage the actual input by the Americans during either war, or indeed any other conflict. What he did allude to was the fact that alot of US documentaries are biased.

If you fail to distinguish between media propaganda effort and real life effort, then that's your lookout...not anyone elses.

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 9:14:54 PM

Ironclad

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I saw it when it first came out and took the view then that its eastern front coverage was totally insufficient. If only 4 episodes (or less than 4) were devoted to the decisive theatre of the war that just demonstrates the point. In fairness it was well made, with a genuine attempt to address available sources.

There are still some good documentary makers around and in recent years there was a good (if too short - only 4 episodes - so abbreviated coverage after Stalingrad) series on the Russo-German war. However there is a fair amount of dross when it comes to documenting past (and current) military matters. My pet hates are the use of actors reconstructions or scenes from current life in TV factual programmes about the past.

(in reply to Neilster)

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 9:42:53 PM

Jevhaddah

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I personly look at the World at War as .. How can I put it.... A big quilted blanket. It covers a little bit of everything and is very informative in its own right giving a good idea of the flow of the entire conflict.

If I want to gain more indepth knowledge about a particular episode of the war, then I would study a tome, DvD etc that specialised in that particular topic.

For instance, I would watch the World at War episodes that covered the Eastern Front, then I would look for books and Dvd's that specialised in that area and covered it in greater depth.

It would be impossible to make a World at War series that covered in sufficient depth and detail everything that occured in WW2.

Just my tuppence worth

Jev

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 10:23:44 PM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
BTW, you're welcome for we Yanks keeping the rump of the British Empire alive during the WWII years.

KG

Normally I'm on your side with a fair few arguments on these boards, but you are out of order there, my friend.

You weren't the only "...keep the rump of the British Empire alive" during WWII. There were plenty of British that died for the cause also.

And as Neilster said...he didn't disparage the actual input by the Americans during either war, or indeed any other conflict. What he did allude to was the fact that alot of US documentaries are biased.

If you fail to distinguish between media propaganda effort and real life effort, then that's your lookout...not anyone elses.

Ok, my admiration for the Aussies, who were part of the empire, is well known, but I crossed the line with that careless remark. In the context of recent events, it was in extremely bad taste. I sincerely apologize.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 7/1/2007 10:25:10 PM >

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RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 11:31:38 PM

Warfare1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

Ken Burns is doing a 15 hour series on WWII that will be aired on PBS in September 2007.

It looks like this one will be a limited focus on the "American Experience" using the home-stories of some scattered towns as litmus in an effort to put the likes of Studs Terkel and Ambrose's "Citizen Soldiers" on screen.

One can sense an intent to recreate the spirit of the WW2 "Over There", with the need to educate the US public for further sacrifice in Iraq/The Stans.

Alternately he may go the opposite route, seeing his outrage at the waste of life and focus on death in the Civil War, by reinforcing the lesson that the US WW2 experience had a definable end goal, whereas the "War on Terror" seemingly has none ie: how much should the sacrifice endure?

That will be interesting to see.

Ken Burns' quality is usually top notch. However, it is probably as you suspect: He will focus on a few combatants during WWII. Hopefully, he will also present the larger war in context.

It seems that a person may have get a few separate documentaries to provide a complete picture of WWII.

(in reply to Adam Parker)

Post #: 24

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 11:36:24 PM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
BTW, you're welcome for we Yanks keeping the rump of the British Empire alive during the WWII years.

KG

Normally I'm on your side with a fair few arguments on these boards, but you are out of order there, my friend.

You weren't the only "...keep the rump of the British Empire alive" during WWII. There were plenty of British that died for the cause also.

And as Neilster said...he didn't disparage the actual input by the Americans during either war, or indeed any other conflict. What he did allude to was the fact that alot of US documentaries are biased.

If you fail to distinguish between media propaganda effort and real life effort, then that's your lookout...not anyone elses.

Ok, my admiration for the Aussies, who were part of the empire, is well known, but I crossed the line with that careless remark. In the context of recent events, it was in extremely bad taste. I sincerely apologize.

Accepted graciously.

Everyone who's anyone knows the sacrafices the US made in personel and anyone who doesn't isn't anyone.

One can only hope that those kind of sacrafices and on such a scale will not be needed in the future.

Amen to peace.

_____________________________

Alba gu' brath

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 25

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 11:42:28 PM

Warfare1

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I taped a bunch of documentaries onto VHS tapes over the years, and would love to get them on dvd, but alas they are either not available, or out of stock.

My fear is that the way history is being shoved onto the back burner by mainstream TV, many these may not be available at all.

Has anyone seen the documentary called "TANKS!"? It was a multi-episode doc about different German tanks in WWII. I thought it was quite well done.

I also enjoyed the documentary called "The Russian German War".
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004REDU/mrjenkinshistoryA/

But I would love to get my hands on the Battlefield dvds. I consider these some of the very best docs I have seen. I have the Leyte Gulf one taped on VHS which I have watched again and again. Gotta love that naval action

Which kinda brings me to another question:

Are there any WWII documentaries about the whole Pacific War?

I just find watching mainstream TV to be a wasteland. Even current History Television seems to be veering away from the number of docs and movies it shows, to showing CSI Miami of all things

(in reply to Warfare1)

Post #: 26

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/1/2007 11:57:10 PM

KG Erwin

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There really isn't, to my knowledge, a single series that encompasses the entire Pacific Theater. To do so would be a huge undertaking. I have another doc called "Hell in the Pacific", which is very good, and a DVD which I've seen called "Victory in the Pacific".

They all have to be taken together, and allow the individual to draw his or her own conclusions.

Now, taking this a step further (and fully deserving of a separate thread), there's the single-volume books that provide an overview of the Pacific War. I have some opinions on that (naturally), but I won't get into it here.

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Post #: 27

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/2/2007 1:39:28 AM

Warfare1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

There really isn't, to my knowledge, a single series that encompasses the entire Pacific Theater. To do so would be a huge undertaking. I have another doc called "Hell in the Pacific", which is very good, and a DVD which I've seen called "Victory in the Pacific".

They all have to be taken together, and allow the individual to draw his or her own conclusions.

Now, taking this a step further (and fully deserving of a separate thread), there's the single-volume books that provide an overview of the Pacific War. I have some opinions on that (naturally), but I won't get into it here.

I did some searching and I did find "Crusade in the Pacific" which includes 20 half-hour episodes of the whole war in the Pacific. I never heard of it, yet it is still available

Anyone heard of it or seen it?

Reviews for it go:

from GOOD:
http://tinyurl.com/yvox2g

to AVERAGE:
http://tinyurl.com/yqsh7r

I really don't want to get stuck with something I'll never want to watch again.

For now, I'll probably go for the 26 episode World at War.

Now if only I could get something on the Pacific War.

I have plenty of books on the Pacific - even though I want more - heh. Books on carrier operations look like my next purchase...

It's an eternal quest... does it ever end?

< Message edited by Warfare1 -- 7/2/2007 1:43:47 AM >

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 28

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/2/2007 2:04:13 AM

KG Erwin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

..It's an eternal quest... does it ever end?

No it doesn't. Once the passion grabs hold of you, your thirst for more never seems to be satisfied. That's the curse of a researcher.

There's more -- once you can start pointing out factual errors in a given documentary or book, you know you're hooked.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 7/2/2007 2:08:07 AM >

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Post #: 29

RE: *** World War II Documentaries *** - 7/2/2007 2:18:28 AM

Adam Parker

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From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

I taped a bunch of documentaries onto VHS tapes over the years, and would love to get them on dvd, but alas they are either not available, or out of stock.

My fear is that the way history is being shoved onto the back burner by mainstream TV, many these may not be available at all.

Has anyone seen the documentary called "TANKS!"? It was a multi-episode doc about different German tanks in WWII. I thought it was quite well done.

I've got "Tanks" and it's definitely available on DVD as a 3 disc set.

The thing with specialised documentaries like the one on Russia is that very often they only run for 50 minutes and they show King Tigers storming in Barbarossa or Shermans at Dunkirk. I HATE that

I bought a combined DVD/Video player/recorder last year and it's a breeze to copy tape to disc with one button. A worthy investment if you need a second DVD machine and very cheap now too without hard drive.

(in reply to Warfare1)

Post #: 30