Kyushu J7W "Shinden"

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Kyushu J7W "Shinden"

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Kyushu J7W "Shinden"

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 6/30/2007 2:54:51 PM

Bobthehatchit

Posts: 1478
Joined: 4/27/2003
From: GREAT BRITAIN
Status: offline

The J7W1 was designed as a high speed interceptor fighter with great firepower and high climb rate to intercept the B-29 Superfortresses.
First, the canard concept was tested with three MXY6 gliders, then a designing team with captain Masaoki Tsuruno (Imperial Japanese Navy)
developed the J7W1. Two prototypes were built, the first had its first flight on august, 3rd 1945. The second was never tested.
It was an all-metal construction with a full retractable landing gear and a six-blade-propeller. Quantity production was undertaken,
but no production aircraft had been completed due to end of the war.
The J7W2 version was planned to get a 900kp Ne-130 axial turbojet instead of the radial powerplant.
Two J71W prototypes were completed in the spring of 1945 at the Zasshonokuma plant of Kyushu Hikoki K.K.

http://www.airbornegrafix.com/HistoricAircraft/Design/J7W.htm

Does anyone actually know how well this plane would have actually performed? As far as I have read so far the Japanies only managed to get one prototype into the air before the end of the war. The US captured this plane and took it back the states, did they test fly it?

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Look at yours before laughing at mine". Garfield 1984.

Wanted: ISDII Low millage in Imperial gray.

Just my 2 pence worth.
I might not be right.
Hell I am probaby wrong.
But thats my opinion for what its worth!

Post #: 1

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 6/30/2007 4:07:50 PM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

Who knows how well it would have eventually performed?

One prototype was test flown for a grand total of 45 minutes (there are even a couple of film clips floating around the web)... while promising, there were problems - overheating of the engine on the ground, bad torque on takeoff, and severe vibrations in the engine and extended drive shaft. (Drive shaft problems seem to be a recurring problem in IJ aircraft).

IIRC, a somewhat similar German aircraft, the DO-335 Pfeil had some stability problems with "porpoising" when airborn at speed. i am not sure if the Japanese flight tests ever got far enough to reveal possible similar problems. REEDIT - i will note that the Pfeil had a pusher-puller design, a longer fuselage, and lacked the "canards" the Shinden had. i suspect the difference of the canards alone might have alleviated any possible porpoising problem).

EDIT - Francillon does not say if the US test flew it, but i suspect it would have been mentioned if they had done it.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 6/30/2007 4:25:54 PM >

(in reply to Bobthehatchit)

Post #: 2

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 6/30/2007 4:11:54 PM

Iridium

Posts: 932
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Jersey
Status: offline

Well, statistically the plane is impressive. However, even if we assume Japan could field enough pilots with the needed training to fly the J7W1 how many would they make? Even if they make 100 and have top notch pilots for them, the US' sheer mass of planes would still win. Limited resources and very few pilots would have made the J7W1 similar to the Jack or Ki-84, good planes but teething problems and general war conditions make running them difficult. It might make B-29 raids more costly but in no way would it change the outcome of the war.

It's similar to the Sherman/Tiger argument, clearly an individual tank is better than the other. That said, when you have 10 of any tank for 1 of the superior...quality matters little.

_____________________________

Yamato, IMO the best looking Battleship.

"Hey, a packet of googly eyes! I'm so taking these." Hank Venture

(in reply to Bobthehatchit)

Post #: 3

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 6/30/2007 4:21:05 PM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

Japan projected making maybe 30 per month at one plant, and 120/month at another, but that was considered "unduly optimistic". The IJN was desperate enough to put it into production before the first test flight - always a good formula to avoid teething problems for a complex aircraft...

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 6/30/2007 4:27:04 PM >

(in reply to Iridium)

Post #: 4

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 6/30/2007 4:45:52 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

The only possible comment is "too little too late"...

Joking aside - the aircraft looks nicely and if it flew good it might have helped Japan to, possibly, "buy some time" - but the inevitable defeat would surely come one way or another (invasion or A-bomb)!

The numerical superiority of USA coupled with technological superiority (though some late war Japanese aircraft designs were very interesting and, possibly, they might have been competitive with USA aircraft designs if produced in numbers) sealed Japanese fate long time before Kyushu J7W "Shinden" showed up...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to rtrapasso)

Post #: 5

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 6/30/2007 5:31:53 PM

Bobthehatchit

Posts: 1478
Joined: 4/27/2003
From: GREAT BRITAIN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Who knows how well it would have eventually performed?

One prototype was test flown for a grand total of 45 minutes (there are even a couple of film clips floating around the web)... while promising, there were problems - overheating of the engine on the ground, bad torque on takeoff, and severe vibrations in the engine and extended drive shaft. (Drive shaft problems seem to be a recurring problem in IJ aircraft).

IIRC, a somewhat similar German aircraft, the DO-335 Pfeil had some stability problems with "porpoising" when airborn at speed. i am not sure if the Japanese flight tests ever got far enough to reveal possible similar problems. REEDIT - i will note that the Pfeil had a pusher-puller design, a longer fuselage, and lacked the "canards" the Shinden had. i suspect the difference of the canards alone might have alleviated any possible porpoising problem).

EDIT - Francillon does not say if the US test flew it, but i suspect it would have been mentioned if they had done it.

Cool thanks for the info.

I know its production would have been academic due to the state of play at the time just interested to find out more info about the type and its performance.

_____________________________

(in reply to rtrapasso)

Post #: 6

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 1:00:41 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

A discussion of the J7W from another forum: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-pictures/kyushu-j7w1-shinden-canard-prototype-4615.html

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Bobthehatchit)

Post #: 7

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 3:04:26 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobthehatchit

The J7W1 was designed as a high speed interceptor fighter with great firepower and high climb rate to intercept the B-29 Superfortresses.
First, the canard concept was tested with three MXY6 gliders, then a designing team with captain Masaoki Tsuruno (Imperial Japanese Navy)
developed the J7W1. Two prototypes were built, the first had its first flight on august, 3rd 1945. The second was never tested.
It was an all-metal construction with a full retractable landing gear and a six-blade-propeller. Quantity production was undertaken,
but no production aircraft had been completed due to end of the war.
The J7W2 version was planned to get a 900kp Ne-130 axial turbojet instead of the radial powerplant.
Two J71W prototypes were completed in the spring of 1945 at the Zasshonokuma plant of Kyushu Hikoki K.K.

http://www.airbornegrafix.com/HistoricAircraft/Design/J7W.htm

Does anyone actually know how well this plane would have actually performed? As far as I have read so far the Japanies only managed to get one prototype into the air before the end of the war. The US captured this plane and took it back the states, did they test fly it?

Basically comes down to the same problem the Germans had. First they didn't plan for large enough production or pilot training to meet the needs of a long war..., then in desperation they began trying to catch up by building super-advanced designs more suitible for "the next war". In the end they were overwhelmed by a huge mass of "good enough". Basically, both paid the price for assuming they could fight a "short victorious war" without consulting the opposition on it's plans

(in reply to Bobthehatchit)

Post #: 8

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 12:33:57 PM

Thilo

Posts: 28
Joined: 6/19/2004
From: Munich, Germany
Status: offline

As far as I remember, the first "test flight" ended with the propeller ends being damaged after contact with the runway during takeoff. That postponed further testing a bit. There were some pictures about this damage somewhere in the net, but don't ask me where.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 9

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 12:58:09 PM

Bobthehatchit

Posts: 1478
Joined: 4/27/2003
From: GREAT BRITAIN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

A discussion of the J7W from another forum: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-pictures/kyushu-j7w1-shinden-canard-prototype-4615.html

Nice link thanks.

_____________________________

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 10

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 3:15:23 PM

spence

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline

I've noticed in at least 1 AAR (which I guess is in 45 sometime) the Japanese Player is salivating over the beginning of production (or maybe deployment) of this aircraft. It has nice stats for sure. But with probably less than 10 hours total flying time IRL (between the Japanese and the US) it would seem there ought to be a real downside possible to rushing research and so forth. These kind of "wunderwaffen" sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. I think the Japanese should be able to invest in all their scientists' wet dreams but after spending 60 billion supply pts find out that they've come up with a really cool looking Nate (forgot its number).

Though the probabilities should be weighted towards producing a Nate there should be a very small chance of producing an F16 sorta thing - just so the Japanese Player doesn't know what he's gonna get til he's spent all the capital (supply).

< Message edited by spence -- 7/1/2007 3:22:57 PM >

(in reply to Bobthehatchit)

Post #: 11

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 3:28:57 PM

String

Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline

Perhaps assign it an insane number of engines (15?) to make its production costs skyrocket.

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 12

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 4:02:18 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I've noticed in at least 1 AAR (which I guess is in 45 sometime) the Japanese Player is salivating over the beginning of production (or maybe deployment) of this aircraft. It has nice stats for sure. But with probably less than 10 hours total flying time IRL (between the Japanese and the US) it would seem there ought to be a real downside possible to rushing research and so forth. These kind of "wunderwaffen" sometimes worked and sometimes didn't.

I see a two-fold problem with deploying this A/C in the game. First, the game seems to equate a proto-type with an actual production-ready design (one of the reasons Tony's arrive in squadron service 6-8 months early). This proto-type was obviously (from the test reports) months away from being a production design. Add to that the sorry state of Japanese production in quality-control even before 1945 and the possibility of seeing a "combat version" of this design before mid-1946 is dismally small. Then you have the pilot problem. This was going to be a totally new kind of "beast" to fly, and require a LOT of training and familiarization hours to handle. For the kind of pilots the Japanese could put in the air by the Fall of 1945, a flight in this A/C was most likely just a kamikaze mission against terra firma.

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 13

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 4:38:19 PM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

i THINK this is thrown in for the Japanese player to give them a little bit of hope in 1945-6... this is a game, and is supposed to be fun for both sides...

And it ISN'T much fun if all you get is hammered without any hope for months on end.

Again, this is not an accurate historical sim, nor was it designed to be.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 14

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 4:39:36 PM

JReb

Posts: 459
Joined: 9/18/2002
Status: offline

It probably would have performed poorly. The captured plane was obviously examined and tested by the Americans and if the technology was worth anything it would have been copied or emulated in some way.

US a/c did not evolve in a "Shinden" manner or style, the plane was dismissed or pprobably received a poor evaluation at the least.

_____________________________

My shrink says I have anger management and conflict resolution issues....and I'LL FIGHT ANYBODY THAT DISAGREES!

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 15

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 5:00:15 PM

rtrapasso

Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JReb

It probably would have performed poorly. The captured plane was obviously examined and tested by the Americans and if the technology was worth anything it would have been copied or emulated in some way.

US a/c did not evolve in a "Shinden" manner or style,�the plane was dismissed or pprobably received a poor evaluation at the least.

AFAIK - the Shinden was never tested in the US - (the referenced web site
said it was never flown here). Probably they took it apart, and never quite got around to putting it back together (it is supposedly being restored now, or is supposed to be in the near future)...

Jet aircraft were much faster and more versatile (i would hate trying to land a Shinden on an aircraft carrier!!) and jet aircraft development made prop plane development sort of a backwater.

(in reply to JReb)

Post #: 16

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 6:57:58 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

It's good that they included the Reppu and Shindens in WitP. If Matrix also had included Bearcats and Dominators
for the US it would have been more easy to accept it. As it is US fighters like Corsairs, Mustangs and T-bolts
are so superior to what the Japs got by 1944-45 that the Allies can achieve extreme results even against superior numbers of top notch Jap fighters flown by vet pilots. In reality George and Frank fighters flown by top pilots were a challenge for most Allied fighters. A separate air 2 air combat rating for pilots that can't be trained to more than 55-60 combined with more emphasis on pilot skills would have been SOOOOOO right!

What many do is to compare the situation in 1945 with the situation in a pbem game.
IF you perform better than in RL and prevent the Allies from torching and strangling the Home Islands by 1944-45,
it should be possible to introduce the Shinden and produce it in numbers. Quality would also have been better if raw materials had been more easily available. Had my opponent(s) captured Luzon and the Marianas by 1944 my ability to research and produce these ac would have
been torched...

A more realistic deployment date should perhaps have been 11/45 for the Shinden and 10/45 for the Reppu.
As it is I have researched the Shinden for 5-6 months, now got some 430 researched.
Advancements have been non existent - almost in June 45 now. From 01/46 both sides should have been able to introduce jet fighters. This would give both sides something to look forward to!
Kikka vs P-80s

Even if the Americans tested both the Shinden and Do-335 designs and were impressed by them, they also realized
that the jet age had arrived and scrapped most conventional prop fighter designs.

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to rtrapasso)

Post #: 17

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 7:04:14 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

It's good that they included the Reppu and Shindens in WitP. If Matrix also had included Bearcats and Dominators for the US it would have been more easy to accept it. As it is US fighters like Corsairs, Mustangs and T-bolts are so superior to what the Japs got by 1944-45 that the Allies can achieve extreme results even against superior numbers of top notch Jap fighters flown by vet pilots. In reality George and Frank fighters flown by top pilots were a challenge for most Allied fighters. A separate air 2 air combat rating for pilots that can't be trained to more than 55-60 combined with more emphasis on pilot skills would have been SOOOOOO right!

Gotta agree with this..., a good pilot in a Frank or a George was a pretty fair match for Allied A/C if the numbers were relatively equal.

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 18

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 7:10:22 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

What many do is to compare the situation in 1945 with the situation in a pbem game.
IF you perform better than in RL and prevent the Allies from torching and strangling the Home Islands by 1944-45, it should be possible to introduce the Shinden and produce it in numbers. Quality would also have been better if raw materials had been more easily available. Had my opponent(s) captured Luzon and the Marianas by 1944 my ability to research and produce these ac would have
been torched...

Here you would still have problems. The Japanese Industrial Base was simply too small to support the kind of massive expansion a lengthly war forced on them. Even with a steady supply of materials they would still be faced with a massive dilution of the available skilled labor needed to utilize it, and a critical shortage of machine tools and plant space. Not to mention the IJA's habit of drafting skilled men from plants supporting the IJN. Quality was going to suffer as the war dragged on even with no material shortage.

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 19

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 7:46:16 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

Don't forget that I hired Albert 'Tojo' Speer to optimize my armaments industry Mike

The production numbers in this game could be reduced _severly_ if you reduced A2A lethality.
I would have been happy not having to re-equipp and train every single Daitai over again after a single engagements..*grumble*

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 20

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 9:32:34 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Don't forget that I hired Albert 'Tojo' Speer to optimize my armaments industry Mike

The production numbers in this game could be reduced _severly_ if you reduced A2A lethality.
I would have been happy not having to re-equipp and train every single Daitai over again after a single engagements..*grumble*

"Alburtu Speeroku" eh? I've thought about that myself. Problem is even Speer had to have something to work with. And when the Zaibatsu (sic) forced some "rationalization" on the IJN and IJA in 1943 they pretty much accomplished anything Speer could have done. Successfully, as the difference between 1942 and 1944 production levels will attest. But the basic Japanese economic base was simply too small and too narrow. Too many parts of it (like the machine tools sector and the electronics sector for example) just couldn't keep up with the increasing demand. And there simply weren't enough skilled workers/technicians to go around. The US beat this by turning out virtually all war material on "assembly lines" in plants built or completely remodled for that purpose. The Japanese lacked the skill, tradition, management expertise and industrial base to go this route.

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 21

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/1/2007 11:29:48 PM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I've noticed in at least 1 AAR (which I guess is in 45 sometime) the Japanese Player is salivating over the beginning of production (or maybe deployment) of this aircraft. It has nice stats for sure. But with probably less than 10 hours total flying time IRL (between the Japanese and the US) it would seem there ought to be a real downside possible to rushing research and so forth. These kind of "wunderwaffen" sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. I think the Japanese should be able to invest in all their scientists' wet dreams but after spending 60 billion supply pts find out that they've come up with a really cool looking Nate (forgot its number).

Though the probabilities should be weighted towards producing a Nate there should be a very small chance of producing an F16 sorta thing - just so the Japanese Player doesn't know what he's gonna get til he's spent all the capital (supply).

Another factor that played into most of these late war wonder weapons was reliability. The database should have a reliability field and planes like this one should have very low reliability. In an operational Chutai, only 1 or 2 planes would likely be operational at any time. That would cool people's enthusiasm for these planes and make their effectiveness in the game realistic.

In Europe, the Ar-234, He-162, Me-163, and Me-262 were wonder weapons, which all saw service, but the 1st generation jet engines had very poor service lives and had a nasty habit of flaming out unexpectedly. The Me-262 was probably the most reliable of the lot, and there were probably less than 20 flaying in all of Germany on any given day.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 22

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/2/2007 12:23:17 AM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

I agree to that Mike, but it should be possible to re-tool factories instead of creating new ones!
If A6M8 production was halted in early 45 to prepare for production of the Reppu, it wouldn't require more skilled
labour.

Do you know if Jap women worked in munition factories and when 24/7 shifts were introducted in Japan?
Germany didn't gear for 'Total War' until 1944 - when the war was already lost.

Wdolson; reliability is always a problem in new models but WitP doesn't have this feature. A lower repair rate
slowly increasing from 20/100 towards 100/100 of full repair capacity over, e.g. 3-4 months would be realistic.

Still, you're not far from the truth:

"It was only during March and April 45 that German jets were encountered by Allied bombers in some numbers. During the largest jet operation, on 10 Apr, 55 jet sorties were flown against 1 000 US bombers and fighters, 10 bombers were destroyed at 27 own losses (all from JG 7, half its strength). That very day, the 8th AF launched relay raids on all known Me 262 airfields in northern Germany. Parchim, Oranienburg, Briest, Rechlin and Burg were badly damaged. A short time later, all the Me 262 units that were still intact, were ordered to transfer to southern Germany and Czechoslovakia.

By the end of the war, the Me 262s had accounted for 150 enemy aircraft destroyed (50 of these by JV 44), 100 jets were lost in the process. Despite being years ahead of its time, the Me 262 came too late to save Germany. There were far to few aircraft to make any difference and in an environment of Allied air supremacy the jets were extremely vulnerable during takeoff and landing."

Still, conditions in Japan in mid 45 is better in my game than they were in Germany in mid 45.
Everything is therefore relative....

Have you seen this; Me-262 taking of from Berlin in 2006!

Me-262 Flies again!

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 23

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/2/2007 2:40:08 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

Don't forget that I hired Albert 'Tojo' Speer to optimize my armaments industry Mike

The production numbers in this game could be reduced _severly_ if you reduced A2A lethality.
I would have been happy not having to re-equipp and train every single Daitai over again after a single engagements..*grumble*

If you look at the history, that's what Japan was having to do in the last 2 years of the war. The Battle of the Philippine Sea (Marianas Turkey Shoot) was the first of a few blood baths. Before the invasion of Leyte, Halsey took TF 38 on a tour of Japanese held bases that could support forces in the Philippines. The Japanese had three plans depending on where the next US invasion was going to be. They figured it was either going to be the Philippines, Okinawa, or Formosa and they made battle plans for each. The first stage of this battle would be to rush aircraft into the target area, then the IJN forces would converge in varients of what happened in the Battle of Leyte Gulf, though the original plan had Ozawa's carriers fully equipped with air groups.

When Halsey did a raid on Formosa, somebody in the Home Islands thought that an invasion of Formosa was imminent and sent every available plane there, including most of Ozawa's carrier planes. The losses there were as bad as the Marianas Turkey Shoot. When the invasion did come at Leyte, Ozawa only had about 100 carrier aircraft, and the land based air in the Philippines was much weaker than the original plan called for because so many had been lost a couple of months before at Formosa.

When large air battles did happen in the Pacific, they were not as common as in WitP, but the real world results were pretty close to what happens in WitP.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 24

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/2/2007 2:42:59 AM

wdolson

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB
"It was only during March and April 45 that German jets were encountered by Allied bombers in some numbers. During the largest jet operation, on 10 Apr, 55 jet sorties were flown against 1 000 US bombers and fighters, 10 bombers were destroyed at 27 own losses (all from JG 7, half its strength). That very day, the 8th AF launched relay raids on all known Me 262 airfields in northern Germany. Parchim, Oranienburg, Briest, Rechlin and Burg were badly damaged. A short time later, all the Me 262 units that were still intact, were ordered to transfer to southern Germany and Czechoslovakia.

Forgot about that one day where they were able to get so many aircraft airborne. I even have a book about it.

To have a vastly superior fighter, in which you can only get 55 airborne on your best day, and you lose half of them isn't very good numbers. The Me-262 was a potent weapon when it got off the ground, but it was more useful for it's ability to scare the Allies than actual combat efficiency. The Allies tied up a lot of fighters for covering Me-262 bases because of that fear. those fighters could have been doing something else if the 262 was not considered such a threat.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 25

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/2/2007 3:08:00 AM

Vetamur

Posts: 191
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline

In my opinion, all the talk about when it could have been REALLY put into production etc is difficult because there are too many variables.

For example, in PZB's game.. he got the Reppu much much earlier than would have been achieved in the war.. BUT Japan is in much much better shape. There hasnt been massive bombing yet of Japan, particular its aircraft and engine factories, and natural resources werent cut as early, etc. If Japan's economy is in better shape, then clearly its industry should produce better products faster.

The other side of that of course is that with the war effort having still been going well in 1943 or even 1944 perhaps unorthodox aircraft like the Shinden wouldnt have had their designs started at all..

Spence mentions that new Japanese aircraft should sort of be given a certain chance to succeed or fail, as they wouldnt know whether it would be a world beater or not. I disagree with two reasons. Late Japanese aircraft do seem on the whole to be good designs..just too little too late. The other thing is, that if youre going to do that..you should also apply it to the Allies. Reading AARs you see all kinds of Allied players just basically doing NOTHING until they get the F6F, etc later. Of course in real life they politically couldnt have done this and certainly couldnt have waited for the F6F because unlike players 60 years later they wouldnt know that is would be a world beater and wouldnt know that Japan wouldnt have a new fighter by then anyway just as good...

If you wanted to take all this into consideration a whole new production system would be needed..where the player would be in charge of assigning what kind of projects were going on, each having a random chance of success etc and effected by the overall economy. It might be quite fun because players in the game would likely react the same way German and Japan did.. when the war starts going really poorly (for either side) I guess a lot of people would start development of numerous new projects hoping for a "war winner".

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 26

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/2/2007 3:24:33 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

I agree to that Mike, but it should be possible to re-tool factories instead of creating new ones!
If A6M8 production was halted in early 45 to prepare for production of the Reppu, it wouldn't require more skilled labour.

There is something to be said for that arguement, but the problem arose in the expansion of the aircraft production labor force from 236,947 in 1941 to 756,256 in 1944. Those additional half million workers came mainly from women, agricultural workers, and the under-aged and over-aged. Not a group likely to provide much "skilled industrial labor".

Do you know if Jap women worked in munition factories and when 24/7 shifts were introducted in Japan? Germany didn't gear for 'Total War' until 1944 - when the war was already lost.

I know women worked in Japanese War Plants from at least mid-1943..., might have figures for "full plant utilization" around somewhere, but can't find it right now. It was certainly by 1944.

Wdolson; reliability is always a problem in new models but WitP doesn't have this feature. A lower repair rate slowly increasing from 20/100 towards 100/100 of full repair capacity over, e.g. 3-4 months would be realistic.

I'd certainly agree with this. Many models went into production while still having teething problems, plus the time needed for the maintainence crews to learn the unique servicing needs of a new A/C

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 27

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/2/2007 12:17:40 PM

dtravel

Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline

From what I understand, much of Japanese industry was literally "cottage industry". Everything was sub-contracted out to the zillionith degree, and much of the actual production work was literally done in the workers' living rooms by hand. It was ridiculously inefficient and depended on an unbroken transport net to keep all the little bit supplied and move the various sub-sub-subassemblies up the chain.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 28

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/2/2007 3:19:00 PM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

From what I understand, much of Japanese industry was literally "cottage industry".� Everything was sub-contracted out to the zillionith degree, and much of the actual production work was literally done in the workers' living rooms by hand.� It was ridiculously inefficient and depended on an unbroken transport net to keep all the little bit supplied and move the various sub-sub-subassemblies up the chain.

Absolutely true, and a real problem for Japanese industrial expansion. In the US when the major suppliers needed to "sub-contract" there were thousands of small and medium-sized firms ready to pick up a share of the load. There was even a bit of a "scandal" as the medium-sized subcontractors picked up the lion's share of the contracts and some of the small ones hollared to their Congressmen. But Ford, GM, Westinghouse, DuPont and the rest of the "big boys" were able to win their arguement that only the larger sub-contractors had the size and capability to meet the ever-faster delivery deadlines. The War came first, and Congress and the "little guys" had to "suck it up" and do without.

In Japan, there were the major industrial combines (the Zaibatsu) and nothing but (very) little guys. Instead of one medium-sized subcontractor mass producing identical sub-assemblies, you had hundreds of converted garages and shops literally hand-making sub-assemblies. Raw materials supply, transportation, and quality control became a nightmare, and tons of parts had to be rejected at the final assembly phase. It was terribly inefficient and wasteful.

(in reply to dtravel)

Post #: 29

RE: Kyushu J7W "Shinden" - 7/2/2007 5:27:16 PM

TheElf

Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline

Ever hear of Burt Rutan...?

quote:

ORIGINAL: JReb

It probably would have performed poorly. The captured plane was obviously examined and tested by the Americans and if the technology was worth anything it would have been copied or emulated in some way.

US a/c did not evolve in a "Shinden" manner or style,�the plane was dismissed or pprobably received a poor evaluation at the least.

_____________________________

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES