Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel
(Let's see here, 18 squadrons each needing 18 planes and pilots plus 2 replacement squadrons needing 30 each is 384 F4U-1Ds and pilots needed.  Assuming absolutely no losses in other units, that's 4 months of aircraft production and 7 months of pilot replacements.  Methinks something is wrong with this picture.... )

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

...Assuming absolutely no losses in other units...

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.

Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel
(Let's see here, 18 squadrons each needing 18 planes and pilots plus 2 replacement squadrons needing 30 each is 384 F4U-1Ds and pilots needed.  Assuming absolutely no losses in other units, that's 4 months of aircraft production and 7 months of pilot replacements.  Methinks something is wrong with this picture.... )

Perhaps the fact that it is total BULLSH-T has something to do with that?

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel
Why do you say that? This is exactly what happened in my stock scenario 15 game. The US CVs re-organized their airgroups to units of 36xF6F, 36xF4U-1D, 15xSB2C & 15xTBM with only 18 aircraft and pilots in the F4U-1D units. I can dig up the save games showing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel
Why do you say that? This is exactly what happened in my stock scenario 15 game. The US CVs re-organized their airgroups to units of 36xF6F, 36xF4U-1D, 15xSB2C & 15xTBM with only 18 aircraft and pilots in the F4U-1D units. I can dig up the save games showing it.

"Assuming absolutely no losses in other units, that's 4 months of aircraft production and 7 months of pilot replacements." When the US implemented these changes they already had the AirGroups trained and ready for deployment. Rotation of Squadrons was standard practice even early in the war, by 1945 it happened all the time with fully trained and equipped squadrons rotating in and out of various CV's.

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel
Ya, I misunderstood what you were saying. We are in agreement that it is bogus that the VFB squadrons show up empty. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom

Yet for some reason the japs can produce 800 million advanced fighters a month. Seems resonable to me.

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ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom

Yet for some reason the japs can produce 800 million advanced fighters a month. Seems resonable to me.

The Japs could produce F-22s and it really wouldnt do them a lot of good with 25 experience pilots. Seriously. Experience is THAT important. So number and type of planes really is irrelivant.

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel
The problem is that it isn't the Japanese who are being forced to use 25 experience pilots. Its the US Navy in 1945 that is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
The Japs could produce F-22s and it really wouldnt do them a lot of good with 25 experience pilots. Seriously. Experience is THAT important. So number and type of planes really is irrelivant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well, I cant say I have actually played in 45, because I havent. But I cant believe it is that hard to rotate out your inexperienced air groups, park them in the backwater and let them bomb Jap by-passed garrisions (like they did historically), and use your more experienced Marine airgroups on the carriers while this is happening (like they did historically). VMF 214 was on the Franklin when it was hit for example. A newly formed VMF 214 to be sure. I have no idea how many actual pilots had combat experience and how many were fresh out of flight school. But in game terms that is irrelivant as the players arent likely to be disbanding US air units at this stage of the game.

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Except that moving air units off of carriers is a programmer designated Bad Thing that causes the program to go crazy. And even if you are lucky enough that the program lets you put your newly trained Corsairs back on the carrier, doesn't that take something like six months to get them up to a reasonable level? So sometime around June or July 1945 you can pull all 18 to 20 of your fleet carriers back to swap around air units, again? (Had to do it at the start of '45 too.) (Also, those historical "bomb the bypassed islands for training" operations were one or two day affairs while the carriers were enroute to their real objective. Not multi-month long affairs.)

And even at that, that assumes that you have the 700 to 800 Corsairs in your aircraft replacement pool to equip those units in the first place. Did you forgo upgrading any of your F4U units at all in 1944 so you would be ready for that?

As for fixing it, Tallyho, it would have to be a code change since the entire carrier airgroup changing process is hard-coded. I believe someone tried to do a database change to address this as part of a Mod and the program simply over-wrote the database changes. But that could just be poor memory on my part, I don't pay attention to the Mods. (Scenarios, that is. )

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Except that moving air units off of carriers is a programmer designated Bad Thing that causes the program to go crazy. And even if you are lucky enough that the program lets you put your newly trained Corsairs back on the carrier, doesn't that take something like six months to get them up to a reasonable level? So sometime around June or July 1945 you can pull all 18 to 20 of your fleet carriers back to swap around air units, again? (Had to do it at the start of '45 too.) (Also, those historical "bomb the bypassed islands for training" operations were one or two day affairs while the carriers were enroute to their real objective. Not multi-month long affairs.)

And even at that, that assumes that you have the 700 to 800 Corsairs in your aircraft replacement pool to equip those units in the first place. Did you forgo upgrading any of your F4U units at all in 1944 so you would be ready for that?

As for fixing it, Tallyho, it would have to be a code change since the entire carrier airgroup changing process is hard-coded. I believe someone tried to do a database change to address this as part of a Mod and the program simply over-wrote the database changes. But that could just be poor memory on my part, I don't pay attention to the Mods. (Scenarios, that is. )

OK, assuming that you didnt look ahead and save planes and pilots for this event, where are the planes and pilots you used? They have to be SOMEWHERE, right? Now as far as I know, the only carrier air groups that "go crazy" if you take them off are the CVEs carrier groups because they were designed as replacements and not for "real" use. Now assuming you arent putting 4000 planes at a level 4 airfield, you SHOULD have more than enough Marine groups to stick in place of the Navy Corsairs until they are trained (which frankly is how I believe they WERE employed, the initial Corsairs on carriers were Marine groups if Im not too terribly mistaken) because the Army planes have better range and are probably in the front line at this point in the war.

Getting an air group from 25 to 60 really shouldnt take more than 2 months. 3 tops. You dont need 90 experience air groups to kill Japs in '45. And if you do have occasion to need 90 experience groups, you have a few that SHOULD be 90 (likely more than just a few).

My .02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Except that moving air units off of carriers is a programmer designated Bad Thing that causes the program to go crazy. And even if you are lucky enough that the program lets you put your newly trained Corsairs back on the carrier, doesn't that take something like six months to get them up to a reasonable level? So sometime around June or July 1945 you can pull all 18 to 20 of your fleet carriers back to swap around air units, again? (Had to do it at the start of '45 too.) (Also, those historical "bomb the bypassed islands for training" operations were one or two day affairs while the carriers were enroute to their real objective. Not multi-month long affairs.)

And even at that, that assumes that you have the 700 to 800 Corsairs in your aircraft replacement pool to equip those units in the first place. Did you forgo upgrading any of your F4U units at all in 1944 so you would be ready for that?

As for fixing it, Tallyho, it would have to be a code change since the entire carrier airgroup changing process is hard-coded. I believe someone tried to do a database change to address this as part of a Mod and the program simply over-wrote the database changes. But that could just be poor memory on my part, I don't pay attention to the Mods. (Scenarios, that is. )

OK, assuming that you didnt look ahead and save planes and pilots for this event, where are the planes and pilots you used? They have to be SOMEWHERE, right? Now as far as I know, the only carrier air groups that "go crazy" if you take them off are the CVEs carrier groups because they were designed as replacements and not for "real" use. Now assuming you arent putting 4000 planes at a level 4 airfield, you SHOULD have more than enough Marine groups to stick in place of the Navy Corsairs until they are trained (which frankly is how I believe they WERE employed, the initial Corsairs on carriers were Marine groups if Im not too terribly mistaken) because the Army planes have better range and are probably in the front line at this point in the war.

Getting an air group from 25 to 60 really shouldnt take more than 2 months. 3 tops. You dont need 90 experience air groups to kill Japs in '45. And if you do have occasion to need 90 experience groups, you have a few that SHOULD be 90 (likely more than just a few).

My .02

You are wrong about moving CV air groups as pointed out by Don Bowen here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1312154&mpage=1&key=moving%2Ccarrier%2Cbased%2Caircraft?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Don,

To confirm, Is it OK to move your squadrons to a shore base and then back to the original CV? This would cover rebasing due to damage. My understanding is that you shouldnt change the CV they are based on??


You can indeed move squadrons ashore for training and they will "remember" that they are part of the carrier's airgroup. They will not grow excessively and can be placed back on the carrier. This used to be a problem but was addressed sometime in the 1.8 update cycle. The same "home carrier link" that is a problem in resizing is what makes this work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tallyho!

It's good that it's a code thing - no need to restart existing games - IF it even reaches the patch queue.
I won't hold my breath

Perhaps we should ask Andy Mac when he's back from his hols what state his airgroups were in when they 'upgraded' (his game with PzB is into April 45)

A supplimentary question:
As the other 3 squadrons of each CAG reduce in size what happens to the a/c and pilots?
Do pilots stay in sqdn or go back into pool / do a/c overload the CV or go back into pool

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Except that moving air units off of carriers is a programmer designated Bad Thing that causes the program to go crazy. And even if you are lucky enough that the program lets you put your newly trained Corsairs back on the carrier, doesn't that take something like six months to get them up to a reasonable level? So sometime around June or July 1945 you can pull all 18 to 20 of your fleet carriers back to swap around air units, again? (Had to do it at the start of '45 too.) (Also, those historical "bomb the bypassed islands for training" operations were one or two day affairs while the carriers were enroute to their real objective. Not multi-month long affairs.)

And even at that, that assumes that you have the 700 to 800 Corsairs in your aircraft replacement pool to equip those units in the first place. Did you forgo upgrading any of your F4U units at all in 1944 so you would be ready for that?

As for fixing it, Tallyho, it would have to be a code change since the entire carrier airgroup changing process is hard-coded. I believe someone tried to do a database change to address this as part of a Mod and the program simply over-wrote the database changes. But that could just be poor memory on my part, I don't pay attention to the Mods. (Scenarios, that is. )

OK, assuming that you didnt look ahead and save planes and pilots for this event, where are the planes and pilots you used? They have to be SOMEWHERE, right?

quote:

Now as far as I know, the only carrier air groups that "go crazy" if you take them off are the CVEs carrier groups because they were designed as replacements and not for "real" use. Now assuming you arent putting 4000 planes at a level 4 airfield, you SHOULD have more than enough Marine groups to stick in place of the Navy Corsairs until they are trained (which frankly is how I believe they WERE employed, the initial Corsairs on carriers were Marine groups if Im not too terribly mistaken) because the Army planes have better range and are probably in the front line at this point in the war.

quote:

Getting an air group from 25 to 60 really shouldnt take more than 2 months. 3 tops. You dont need 90 experience air groups to kill Japs in '45. And if you do have occasion to need 90 experience groups, you have a few that SHOULD be 90 (likely more than just a few).

My .02

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Well, I don't gimmick around with deliberately training air units with missions so I'll have to take your word for that. I do know that the "training" mission is seriously FUBAR and is utterly useless. Whether its two months or six months, you're still stuck with pulling your carriers back to swap air units around.