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AT vs TOAW3 - 7/8/2007 9:46:24 PM

bbmike

Posts: 286
Joined: 5/13/2007
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How similar/different is Advanced Tactics compared to The Operational Art of War 3? I have TOAW3 and have barely tried it. This game seem sort of the same. I just downloaded and tried Peoples Tactics as some recommended on this forum. I have to say it is very addictive!

Post #: 1

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/8/2007 11:11:07 PM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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This game will be less complicated, more direct and faster turns than TOAW III. Of course those that have mastered TOAW III will say differently, but, masters are usually like that, they think if they can do it everyone else should be able to do it and love it. lol I'm waiting on this puppy. I like KISS games and this has all the makings of a KISS game and not some game that gives you headaches or takes an hour a turn. lol The historical value is there if you keep up with the AAR that is going on, except maybe in the south where it looks like the german player got a big jump and is at the gates of Stalingrad already in Dec of 41. They can tweak that though before the game is released I think and make it a bit harder for the German player to blitzkrieg to Stalingrad so fast. I'm going to highly recommend this game because VIC is a nice guy basically independent and gave us all a great FREE game before making this one.

On the other hand if you want complicated and detailed then TOAW III will probably be for you. Hell buy both of them then you can't go wrong. ;)

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 7/8/2007 11:12:06 PM >

(in reply to bbmike)

Post #: 2

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 12:19:20 AM

Ola Berli

Posts: 133
Joined: 2/7/2005
Status: offline

This nice women above say it so nice that I only must agree with her

_____________________________

War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 3

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 12:56:20 AM

Arditi

Posts: 681
Joined: 6/24/2005
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� Much of PT's(and hence AT as it is a great�improvement) complexity comes from the decisions to be made.� Tactical decisions(recon, air, ground, etc), reinforcement(what type do I make?)and what priority objectives do I take may seem like simple decisions compared to other games, but becomes a larger/growing puzzle that delightfully becomes a brain teaser.� I like TOAW 3 and I will really like AT because I know that Vic will improve on everything(how little) that PT lacked(differing terrain, better random map generator, better play/ interface graphics and a stronger editor).� There is something�about PT/hence AT�that�really appeals to�me over�other games of this genre that is hard to put my finger on.� I guess I like filling my chits/units up with tanks, infantry, air, etc. of my choice and seeing little graphic representations of the hardware(a sensory thing I bet).� I like upgrading with a research tree my tanks, etc.� I like the supply rules and how it affects readiness, etc.� I like trying to outfox my opponent by recon and quesswork what he is going to put into his chits/units to try to achieve victory.� I guess it's the "I have the power/influence" to put what I want in my units that's appealing...and Ravinhood I agree with you that Vic is a class act.� With that scenario editor we are going to see some outstanding scenarios I believe.� The only complaint I have is that it is not in my greedy little hands!� haha

Respectfully, Arditi

< Message edited by Arditi -- 7/9/2007 2:41:51 AM >

_____________________________

Semper Fi
www.ironlegions.weebly.com
author of: Italy At War: Uniforms, Weapons,
Equipment and Ephemera

Released!
Japan At War: Uniforms, Weapons,
Equipment and Ephemera

(in reply to Ola Berli)

Post #: 4

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 1:06:21 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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Yeah I agree when are we going to get the game VIC? ;) You know it's rare ole ravinhood wants to buy any game nowadays. Of course the ones I really want are still in production. lol Les Grognards from Battlefront. EIA from Matrix and now this. This isn't really something new though, but, it has talent and the kind of game I like KISS even if there are some details to it. PT was excellent, just the right mix of depth and complexity what I think most wargamers want. We just don't have that time anymore to spend days and weeks and years playing one game anymore. Let me be 12 again and I'll play and probably like WitP or TOAW's. Now, I'd rather play a game of EMPIRE than some of these wargames. Ahhh EMPIRE one of the greatest computer games in history and look how old it is. And WARLORDS another great game in history and it's pretty old also. Went out and bought a damn Amiga 500 just to play that game. lol Then came SWORD of ARAGON and the command decision WATERLOO game with colorful blocks for units. ROMANCE of the 3 KINGDOMS....<sigh> the good ole days. ;)

(in reply to Arditi)

Post #: 5

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 1:10:21 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ola Berli

This nice women above say it so nice that I only must agree with her

Lol, most everyone seems to like my avatar. ;) Ain't she pretty? ;) The woman of yesteryear, glamour and lace pretty in face.

(in reply to Ola Berli)

Post #: 6

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 1:12:38 AM

Arditi

Posts: 681
Joined: 6/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Ahhh EMPIRE one of the greatest computer games in history and look how old it is. And WARLORDS another great game in history and it's pretty old also. Went out and bought a damn Amiga 500 just to play that game. lol Then came SWORD of ARAGON and the command decision WATERLOO game with colorful blocks for units. ROMANCE of the 3 KINGDOMS....<sigh> the good ole days. ;)

I remember! Great games all! PT/ hence AT, in my opinion, is like Empire, but has everyting I wish Empire had at the time. Thanks for the trip back! haha

Best Regards, Arditi

_____________________________

Semper Fi
www.ironlegions.weebly.com
author of: Italy At War: Uniforms, Weapons,
Equipment and Ephemera

Released!
Japan At War: Uniforms, Weapons,
Equipment and Ephemera

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 7

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 1:31:06 AM

Zakhal

Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
Status: offline

They belong to different category:

IGOUGO
Panzer General
Decisive Battles
Advanced tactics

WEGO
TOAW

For me the problem with toaw is that its too hard to try to put all those hundreds of gamepieces into your head and only see the results AFTER planning EVERY move of EVERY piece on the board. Its way too easy too loose focus (forget what the whole big picture was) when it takes like a good part of an hour to set them all.

In games like panzer general etc you get results instantly so you never loose focus.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 7/9/2007 1:32:40 AM >

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(in reply to Arditi)

Post #: 8

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 2:48:02 AM

TPM

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

They belong to different category:

IGOUGO
Panzer General
Decisive Battles
Advanced tactics

WEGO
TOAW

For me the problem with toaw is that its too hard to try to put all those hundreds of gamepieces into your head and only see the results AFTER planning EVERY move of EVERY piece on the board. Its way too easy too loose focus (forget what the whole big picture was) when it takes like a good part of an hour to set them all.

In games like panzer general etc you get results instantly so you never loose focus.

I agree with this...whether or not it's more "realistic" who knows and who cares, but I always had a hard time keeping focus of the big picture with TOAW. But I still like it and play it occasionally...

(in reply to Zakhal)

Post #: 9

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 9:29:46 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

They belong to different category:

IGOUGO
Panzer General
Decisive Battles
Advanced tactics

WEGO
TOAW

For me the problem with toaw is that its too hard to try to put all those hundreds of gamepieces into your head and only see the results AFTER planning EVERY move of EVERY piece on the board. Its way too easy too loose focus (forget what the whole big picture was) when it takes like a good part of an hour to set them all.

In games like panzer general etc you get results instantly so you never loose focus.

Exactly and it's why games like Panzer General and EMPIRE as so popular. They are KISS games, play fast and easy and very hard to lose focus unless you save the game and try to pick it up say oh a year later. lol They really should rename it: Advanced Tactics There and Back again. lol

(in reply to Zakhal)

Post #: 10

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 4:50:08 PM

TPM

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

They belong to different category:

IGOUGO
Panzer General
Decisive Battles
Advanced tactics

WEGO
TOAW

For me the problem with toaw is that its too hard to try to put all those hundreds of gamepieces into your head and only see the results AFTER planning EVERY move of EVERY piece on the board. Its way too easy too loose focus (forget what the whole big picture was) when it takes like a good part of an hour to set them all.

In games like panzer general etc you get results instantly so you never loose focus.

Exactly and it's why games like Panzer General and EMPIRE as so popular. They are KISS games, play fast and easy and very hard to lose focus unless you save the game and try to pick it up say oh a year later. lol They really should rename it: Advanced Tactics There and Back again. lol

Alright that's enough! What in God's name is a KISS game?

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 11

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 5:04:54 PM

Westheim

Posts: 570
Joined: 7/9/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TPM

Alright that's enough! What in God's name is a KISS game?

I believe I read that in context with some other freeware game (Battle for Wesnoth?). I think it meant "Keep it stupid simple" or something like that. And I may be totally wrong with this ...

(in reply to TPM)

Post #: 12

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 5:45:55 PM

balsampear

Posts: 29
Joined: 9/6/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

They belong to different category:

IGOUGO
Panzer General
Decisive Battles
Advanced tactics

WEGO
TOAW

TOAW is not WEGO,Just IGOUGO

(in reply to Zakhal)

Post #: 13

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 5:55:00 PM

Vic

Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

to be honest Advanced Tactics is not THAT simple. It is actually more complex then its predecessor Peoples Tactics.

(in reply to balsampear)

Post #: 14

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 6:13:16 PM

Zakhal

Posts: 2494
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyv�skyl�, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: balsampear
TOAW is not WEGO,Just IGOUGO

True. For som weird reason it just feels more like WEGO. Its IGOUGO but with WEGO elements like heavy amount of planning before seeing any results.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 7/9/2007 6:25:56 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 15

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/9/2007 9:18:58 PM

bbmike

Posts: 286
Joined: 5/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

to be honest Advanced Tactics is not THAT simple. It is actually more complex then its predecessor Peoples Tactics.

Good news! But I wouldn't really call Peoples Tactics simple either. I just lost my first game!

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 16

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/10/2007 12:59:22 AM

TPM

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arditi

� Much of PT's(and hence AT as it is a great�improvement) complexity comes from the decisions to be made.� Tactical decisions(recon, air, ground, etc), reinforcement(what type do I make?)and what priority objectives do I take may seem like simple decisions compared to other games, but becomes a larger/growing puzzle that delightfully becomes a brain teaser.� I like TOAW 3 and I will really like AT because I know that Vic will improve on everything(how little) that PT lacked(differing terrain, better random map generator, better play/ interface graphics and a stronger editor).� There is something�about PT/hence AT�that�really appeals to�me over�other games of this genre that is hard to put my finger on.� I guess I like filling my chits/units up with tanks, infantry, air, etc. of my choice and seeing little graphic representations of the hardware(a sensory thing I bet).� I like upgrading with a research tree my tanks, etc.� I like the supply rules and how it affects readiness, etc.� I like trying to outfox my opponent by recon and quesswork what he is going to put into his chits/units to try to achieve victory.� I guess it's the "I have the power/influence" to put what I want in my units that's appealing...and Ravinhood I agree with you that Vic is a class act.� With that scenario editor we are going to see some outstanding scenarios I believe.� The only complaint I have is that it is not in my greedy little hands!� haha
Respectfully, Arditi

Absolutely agree with you Arditi...I've said a bunch of times in other posts, but there is a simple eloquence to the game (PT I'm talking about, I'm assuming AT) that I really find appealing. The game is just complicated enough to keep you interested, but simple enough to allow to actually PLAY the damn thing instead of learning a bunch of rules and concepts...anyway, yeah, can't wait to get this one.

(in reply to Arditi)

Post #: 17

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/10/2007 1:01:47 AM

TPM

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arditi

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Ahhh EMPIRE one of the greatest computer games in history and look how old it is. And WARLORDS another great game in history and it's pretty old also. Went out and bought a damn Amiga 500 just to play that game. lol Then came SWORD of ARAGON and the command decision WATERLOO game with colorful blocks for units. ROMANCE of the 3 KINGDOMS....<sigh> the good ole days. ;)

I remember! Great games all! PT/ hence AT, in my opinion, is like Empire, but has everyting I wish Empire had at the time. Thanks for the trip back! haha
Best Regards, Arditi

EXACTLY! I loved empire, but there was so much NOT there, that finally I grew tired of it...this game is the fullfillment of what Empire could have been...

(in reply to Arditi)

Post #: 18

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/10/2007 1:05:47 AM

TPM

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

to be honest Advanced Tactics is not THAT simple. It is actually more complex then its predecessor Peoples Tactics.

I can see from the screenshots that there is a bit more there...but it also looks like the core of PT is there...and this is a VERY GOOD THING. I remember when talk of PT2 started, all I kept thinking was, "Man I hope they don't go and ruin this perfect game..."

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 19

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/10/2007 1:40:53 AM

Awac835

Posts: 279
Joined: 7/16/2004
Status: offline

AT looks very good. I myself was excitet when TOAW was released by matrix. I bought it to. But have to admit it was to confusing also the UI would have been ok 15 years ago. But today it just have to be more streamlined. The new Harpoon ANW has the same problem imo. Great gameplay but dammit the interface is to clumsy to handle for me anyway.

AT i hope will have a good UI with lots of hotkeys. Second it looks like its actualy more of a game worty of comparison with the DB series then TOAW.
For me DB is the current king of wargames. KP was good. But BiN blew me away. Hopefully AT can give some good competition.

(in reply to TPM)

Post #: 20

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/10/2007 6:25:40 AM

TPM

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awac835

AT looks very good. I myself was excitet when TOAW was released by matrix. I bought it to. But have to admit it was to confusing also the UI would have been ok 15 years ago. But today it just have to be more streamlined. The new Harpoon ANW has the same problem imo. Great gameplay but dammit the interface is to clumsy to handle for me anyway.

AT i hope will have a good UI with lots of hotkeys. Second it looks like its actualy more of a game worty of comparison with the DB series then TOAW.
For me DB is the current king of wargames. KP was good. But BiN blew me away. Hopefully AT can give some good competition.

Don't want to hijack the thread, maybe you can private email me, but I want to know: is BiN that much better than Korsun Pocket? I'm asking 'cause I've got KP and I've always been debating whether or not I should get one of the others. Thanks!

(in reply to Awac835)

Post #: 21

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/10/2007 7:50:49 AM

balsampear

Posts: 29
Joined: 9/6/2005
Status: offline

BII better than BIN better than KP

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Post #: 22

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/10/2007 7:59:00 AM

TPM

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: balsampear

BII better than BIN better than KP

But how much better? Not trying to get too particular, but is there a really noticeable difference between BiI and KP?

(in reply to balsampear)

Post #: 23

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/10/2007 8:29:12 AM

balsampear

Posts: 29
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My English is very poor

........Please click:http://ssg.com.au/forums/

< Message edited by balsampear -- 7/10/2007 8:31:21 AM >

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Post #: 24

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/10/2007 8:58:12 PM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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Battles in Italy is better than Battles in Normandy or Korsun pocket because of the added scenarios and mods that people have made for it. Don't know why Battles in Italy became so much more popular (probably because there's not that many Italian front games out there and it was the 3rd in the sequel so had to have more props and tweaks). At any rate you get more for your $$ getting Battles In Italy vs Korsun or Battles in Normandy.

As far as what KISS means it's KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID made up to tell developers that most gamers don't want these complicated nightmares like TOAW or WITP with all the numbers and sub numbers and sub numbers of the numbers sub. I hate a game that has 3 popup windows you need to go thru to see what kind of power you have or much of this or that you have or need. Just give me a damn number and let me attack with it. One number is all you need you don't need 10 bazillion numbers to have a combat. This game looks like you fill a core counter with relative units of different types and the game does the rest. We don't have to actually go inside each unit every turn to figure out it's strength do we VIC? I mean the numbers we see on the outside represent the units strength right? We don't really need to know if it's 1st division or 2000th division or what it's movement factor is vs this or that do we VIC?. The game tells us how far it can move when we click on it isn't that right VIC? ;) Some sort of shade on the maps shows how far it can move? And when we go into a battle it shows the odds right VIC? ;) hehe At any rate if it's not much more complicated than Peoples Tactics then it will be fine. It doesn't look that much more complicated from reading the aar's and listening to Vic and Twiller go on about it. Then again I might be having expectations of something SIMPLE STUPID and VIC has made a nightmare of a game. lol We'll just have to wait and see from the DEMO VIC is going to make RIGHT VIC? hehe

(in reply to balsampear)

Post #: 25

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/11/2007 1:30:42 AM

Ola Berli

Posts: 133
Joined: 2/7/2005
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Sure this beautiful woman now everything about a KISS

_____________________________

War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

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Post #: 26

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/13/2007 1:48:19 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

Vic is not answering my questions??!!

(in reply to Ola Berli)

Post #: 27

RE: AT vs TOAW3 - 7/13/2007 3:40:47 AM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

Well, BiI vs Bin?? there are aboutthe same number of free scenarios... BUT there are some changes to the game engine in BII. As to fun factor.. both are a bit light on the AI, but make great pbem games.
BNakc to TOAW3, seems like comparing two very different animals. One is the Very complex, not too hard just does allot, supplies ,weather, rail winter pesditlaence etc... lots canm be modded in the events editor and comes in at a hefty 300 plus scenarios.
AT the other hand seems to be going the easier, more abstracted and simpler way ala commander etc. This is not a criticism, this game looks like it could be a great game, and if it has a decent ai we will see! Most games like this are to simple to give the ai any chance... and get relagated to two player status pbem etc.. again we will see. Looks promising though!