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RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/1/2007 4:22:02 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

Hey as an FYI in my mod the CV Units:
1)� Have lower air combat
2)� Have range 3 instead of 4
3)� Tech mods are updated
4)� Have higher Naval Attack instead

I just downloaded your mod to give it a try. I stopped playing this game, waiting for an AI patch, but I might give a couple of the mods that have popped up here a try in the meantime.

Otherwise, I've gone back to spending the bulk of my game time on beta testing BFTB scenarios. MY Race for the Meuse AAR managed to sell at least one person on the game so I consider it at least a marginal victory!

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Post #: 121

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/1/2007 7:44:16 PM

Vypuero

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Ok - though I am not sure how it will be vs. AI - I suggest playing the Axis, as I think the Allies will be too easy.

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Post #: 122

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/1/2007 8:33:39 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

Ok - though I am not sure how it will be vs. AI - I suggest playing the Axis, as I think the Allies will be too easy.

Almost all games I play against an AI is played as the protagonist.

While AIs can sometimes present a decent challenge in defense, they are usually worse than dismal in attack.

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Post #: 123

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/5/2007 2:53:21 AM

IrishGuards

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Is it possible to take the CV's off the strategic for labs ..

IDG

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Post #: 124

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/6/2007 4:11:20 PM

Vypuero

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Yes it is possible to, or to adjust it, why?

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Post #: 125

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/6/2007 6:19:39 PM

IrishGuards

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To say the least its ridicolous that CV's have any strategic abilities that can effect the balance in any way ..

IDG

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Post #: 126

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/6/2007 7:08:46 PM

Vypuero

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strategic tech includes range - so for example their range increases. That I would keep.

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Post #: 127

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/6/2007 7:41:17 PM

IrishGuards

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Why would they get a land spotting benefit ... and why range ... they should have a very short range ...
Sea spotting .. ok .... but the other 2 .. and combine this with Dog Fight .. CV's are way to powerful ...
IDG

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Post #: 128

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/6/2007 10:04:44 PM

Vypuero

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Look at the tech tree I provided and it maps out what they get.
It is much more limited than the basic game - see for yourself.

They do get some slight range increase, but that is reasonable as they got better aircraft during the course of the war.

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Post #: 129

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/6/2007 10:06:04 PM

Vypuero

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FYI - open the tech spreadsheet. Cross reference the CV column with the tech advances, so for instance if there is a check on Level 3 dogfight, they get that tech, but if there is no check, they don't get that advance.

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Post #: 130

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/6/2007 10:06:44 PM

Vypuero

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Also, open the spreadsheet for units to view the new base stats and costs of each unit.

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Post #: 131

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/6/2007 10:55:41 PM

targul

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CV's are absurd in this game. They bomb inland targets. Cant think of a single example of that in Europe. Even on DDay.

No reason for the Allies to build anyother type of aircraft since the CV does it all.

It is sad but the battles for France come down to CV battles against the German air. This does give the Allies the edge in France making it more difficult then it should be. The battles for Africa turn out to be the same a battle of CV's against the land based air.

It might be okay if the land based air could really hurt the CV's but nope it is rare to harm the CV enough to make them go repair.

If this was the Pacific these CV's would be accurate but not in Europe.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

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Post #: 132

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/6/2007 11:36:07 PM

Vypuero

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In Torch they were used to support the landings. They can also get smacked pretty hard by Fighters. It is not that hard to kill them. That said, my changes make them much weaker against land-based air.

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Post #: 133

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/6/2007 11:59:32 PM

gmothes

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The reccomendation that I saw that I think is best and needed is a "Naval Air" unit, that is seperate from the Ship itself, and can consequently be made much weaker than land based fighters and catered to attacking ships and submarines.

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Post #: 134

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/7/2007 12:43:35 AM

targul

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I am in France at this time two carriers off the coast. Fighters can do 0-1 according to the odds. If that is smack them okay but I call that carrier better then fighter. BTW Axis fighter has two marks up and is at 10, carrier is at 7. Attacking them is suicide for the Axis.

First the land based fighter takes more damage and then you need to leave the objective Paris alone to make that attack. It is a joke and not a good one.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

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Post #: 135

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/7/2007 12:55:15 AM

firepowerjohan

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Targul can you provide some more complementary information? Effectiveness of the units, Carrier experience, dog fight tech level. In normal cases, fighers beat Carrier that is a fact according to the unit stats. Add in a commander for your ground forces and that gap will increase even more since naval units do not get leadership boosts while air units do.

But a unit with no effectiveness will not fight, so just stating unit type and strength does not tell the whole story. How a 0-1 odds means suicide is simple not true, 0-1 means that both units are likely to take hardly or no damage.

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 8/7/2007 1:17:11 AM >

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Post #: 136

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/7/2007 2:08:39 AM

targul

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I have a leader present only a 40 point one but still he is a leader. I have increased level 4 and he level 2. I have 2 marks of increase him none. So 0-1 makes no sense for odds. But I have as many times found those attacks go very badly. I attacked 0-1 and took attacker losses 3 defender 1. This is so typically I cant count the number of times I have seen it.

Now this is what you see almost everytime. I only made the attack to show you the results. Now you may not call this suicide but since it happens almost everytime it might as well be. You keep up these attacks your air goes away his carrier laughs.

So if the fact is fighters beat carriers I have not seen it and from the posts the players are not seeing it either.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

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Post #: 137

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/7/2007 2:23:14 AM

firepowerjohan

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Carrier white effectiveness (72), no tech, no experience�
Fighter white effectiveness (83), no tech, no experience

Carrier vs Figher odds 2:3
outcome
Carrier lost 2 strength, figher lost 1 strength

(I ran another similar battle where carrier lost 3 and figher 2 so I do not see any odd pattern)

My guess is that you use demoralised fighters against fresh carriers, that would explain why you get a "0" in the odds calculation.

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 8/7/2007 11:10:59 PM >

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Post #: 138

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/7/2007 2:39:23 AM

IrishGuards

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In 1 game ,, no names here .. LOL .. I had a german ftr .. 1 ensign ... 9 or 10 strength ...
In 1940 .. attacked a CV in london port .. he was a 7 yellow ..
German Ftr took 1 damage .. CV took 5 .. Oh dear ...
IDG

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Post #: 139

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/7/2007 8:14:52 AM

targul

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White fighter yellow carrier. Sorry but 3-1 seemed inappropriate.

I have never gotten 7 damage vs a cv with anything in this game. 1940 to 1944.

Best I have done is sub hit one once for 5. I gave that U Boat Commander the Iron Cross.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

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Post #: 140

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/7/2007 12:36:53 PM

firepowerjohan

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That differs alot from the CEaW I am playing. In my new test here (fighter vs carrier), a white effectiveness fighter with no tech, no leader, no experience gets a 1-2 underdog odds vs a white effectiveness carrier with no tech, no leader, and FULL 4 star experience (hence +2 survivability).

If I instead change it to more normal conditions with Air unit having leader and both fighter carrier on same tech level and experience then the fighter gets a 3-2 odds and is at advantage.

Please send a screenshot showing the combatpanel where we can also examine the 2 unitpanels of attacker and defender and see if your numbers are different. I assume you are using no modded version with different stats, just asking to be sure.

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 8/7/2007 1:27:46 PM >

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Post #: 141

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/7/2007 5:41:37 PM

targul

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Just did my next turn. Attacked that carrier with two fighters and two tac bombers one of which was a substantard Italian. Each of my planes lost one to three points the carrier after being bombed 4 times lost a total of 1 point. Yep I see how these land based planes perform against the carriers. Same as every game I have seen.

Carriers are for sea battles. The air could support coastal hexes. But the carriers bombing past Paris and intercepting air in Germany was just not done in 1940. Now maybe the English just didnt know that there carriers where actually more powerful then land based German air but I would prefer to play the game using the equipment the way it was used instead of second guessing how valuable it should be.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

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Post #: 142

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/7/2007 10:08:15 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: targul

Just did my next turn.� Attacked that carrier with two fighters and two tac bombers one of which was a substantard Italian.� Each of my planes lost one to three points the carrier after being bombed 4 times lost a total of 1 point.� Yep I see how these land based planes perform against the carriers.� Same as every game I have seen.�

Carriers are for sea battles.� The air could support coastal hexes.� But the carriers bombing past Paris and intercepting air in Germany was just not done in 1940.� Now maybe the English just didnt know that there carriers where actually more powerful then land based German air but I would prefer to play the game using the equipment the way it was used instead of second guessing how valuable it should be.

Targul you'll save yourself a lot of greif if you just stop playing it like I did.

I look at it as a waste of $70 that will keep me from ever looking twice at their next product.

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Post #: 143

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/7/2007 11:02:15 PM

firepowerjohan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: targul

Just did my next turn.� Attacked that carrier with two fighters and two tac bombers one of which was a substantard Italian.� Each of my planes lost one to three points the carrier after being bombed 4 times lost a total of 1 point.� Yep I see how these land based planes perform against the carriers.� Same as every game I have seen.�

Carriers are for sea battles.� The air could support coastal hexes.� But the carriers bombing past Paris and intercepting air in Germany was just not done in 1940.� Now maybe the English just didnt know that there carriers where actually more powerful then land based German air but I would prefer to play the game using the equipment the way it was used instead of second guessing how valuable it should be.

Again, I am politely asking you to explain how you get your results and provide some more information on unit stats or screenshots. I asked you how you got your strange 0-1 combat odds fighter vs carrier but your answer does not contain any odds but now only strange casualty examples that cannot be double checked.

If there is a bug we should deal with it ASAP. I have asked around to some experienced players and they do not find any way to proof that carriers are stronger than air so if that can be shown I will be the first one to check it out.

I have provided own examples of full unit stats, odds and outcome of the battles we are discussing on this topic. I do not know what else can be asked of me as support of this matter if you do not give enough data so that the results can be retried and double checked.

Example:
Carrier white effectiveness (72), no tech, no experience
Fighter white effectiveness (83), no tech, no experience

Carrier vs Figher odds 2:3
outcome
Carrier lost 2 strength, figher lost 1 strength

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 8/7/2007 11:12:56 PM >

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Post #: 144

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/7/2007 11:48:58 PM

Vypuero

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Yes fighters have 4 strength air-to-air and carriers 3, unmodified, so fighters will always have an advantage. If you hate it that much, just go in and mod the stats. It is just a text file, no special skill needed.

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Post #: 145

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/8/2007 12:51:00 AM

IrishGuards

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As I am sinking UK Cv's I will speak to the swine Goring ..
I will attempt to give you a replay .. ah ..

I mean account of the Jutland w pointy planes ... That be Ire ...

The sinking Cv's is the swine Allies ..

All pertinent information will be available .. Maybe I should speak w Prein .. and Donutz ...
Hmmm .. combined arms ... thats like .. maybe slice the bread before we sell it ..

IDG

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Post #: 146

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/8/2007 8:12:07 AM

targul

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Well he attack with his carrier which dropped it to 3 and I elminated it. The second one then ran away like a little girl so I cant tell you what he had. I dont copy my opponents information since I would consider that cheating.

Cant tell you how his went to 3 since I have no idea what my opponents do on their turns. I just come and look at the forces I have left and see if I can do anything. I never have any idea what is really happening. I see the little lines and laugh then start my turn.

Sorry cant send you a replay those dont exist.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

(in reply to IrishGuards)

Post #: 147

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/17/2007 4:57:08 PM

IrishGuards

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Bumpie bump ...

IDG

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Post #: 148

RE: Super Dreadnought CV's .. - 8/21/2007 7:35:52 AM

IrishGuards