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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 1:47:43 AM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Banquet

The AIM-9L helped us a lot but in my opinion there was still only going to be one result. We did manage to bring our own designed and built ships and aircraft. What did Argentina have that wasn't foreign made? Canberra, Mirage, Skyhawk, Exocet? The Navy?

The Pucara was pretty much it...

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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 10:11:52 AM

105mm Howitzer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Banquet

The AIM-9L helped us a lot but in my opinion there was still only going to be one result. We did manage to bring our own designed and built ships and aircraft. What did Argentina have that wasn't foreign made? Canberra, Mirage, Skyhawk, Exocet? The Navy?

The Pucara was pretty much it...

Surprisingly few nations could afford to create and manufacture their own armaments. Some lack the necessary budget for proper R & D, others just lack the will to do so, while others prefer copyinf and mass producing. In refernece to this thread, there is in no way a basis of comparison between Britain and Argentinian weapon devs. Britain's been making their own since the middle-ages, while the Argentinians...well, whatever we can afford. They produced the Pucara, at least it's a step in the right direction.

Of course here in Canada, we gave up our Avro Arrow for sheer lack of political will. ( bought f-101 Voodoos instead)

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Post #: 302

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 11:34:00 AM

Neilster

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My old squadron received BAE Hawk 127s, which were (most of them) manufactured in Australia as the RAAF's new advanced trainer. They were delayed and didn't eventuate until late 2000 due to problems at the BAE Warton end. They took a lot of shaking down before they were reliable too but that was mostly the avionics. They're excellent and capable jets now, with especially advanced cockpits.

My argument is that developing an advanced trainer/light fighter would have been an excellent project for Australia. It would have many advantages such as preserving and improving our indigenous aerospace design capability, make us less dependent on foreign weaponry, potentially generate export sales to the many countries that are in need of new advanced trainers/light fighters and provide the Australian Air Force with a truly 21st Century airframe that would be more capable in the back-up fighter/ground attack role than the Hawk.

Yes, developing aircraft is expensive but so is buying off-the-shelf gear and the latter provides none of the above-mentioned benefits. Plenty of countries with smaller populations, less technologically sophisticated and smaller economies and less access to resources than Australia have developed such aircraft, so there's little doubt in my mind that it would have been possible. An off-the-shelf engine would most probably have had to be purchased. Something similar to the EADS Mako is what I have in mind.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mako/

It was an opportunity missed in my opinion.

Images are of 76SQN Hawk 127s, a Hawk 127 front cockpit and a mock up of the EADS Mako.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 303

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 1:25:37 PM

Ike99

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quote:

here is a PC Falklands wargame, , The Falklands War . Similar gameplay to HttR/CotA only at a smaller scale. Just don't expect much in the way of graphics.

My understanding is that game only covers the ground warfare. I`d like to see a game covering the whole campaign. It`s the air and naval aspect that's most interesting.

I also see on that Shrapnel Games site it says...

The Falklands War-Best Seller

Maybe Matrix needs to put someone to work.

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Post #: 304

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 3:46:41 PM

sprior

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There is a Falklands add-on for the cardboard Harppon with the ground sound played through GDW's Command Decision rules. Mayfair Games also did "War in the Falklands" which, I believe covered both naval and ground. I'm with Ike and would like to see a new game covering both.

I think Harpoon as it now exists has some Falklands, both historical and hysterical, available too.

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Post #: 305

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 6:47:38 PM

Banquet

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There are indeed some Falklands scenario's for Harpoon III:ANW. Including some more modern 'what if' ones. They don't have any ground warfare but the Naval/Air aspects are quite interesting.

It's actually quite depressing to think that (as far as I know) the only supersonic fighter Britain actually made all by itself is the Lightning.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

There is a Falklands add-on for the cardboard Harppon with the ground sound played through GDW's Command Decision rules. Mayfair Games also did "War in the Falklands" which, I believe covered both naval and ground. I'm with Ike and would like to see a new game covering both.

I think Harpoon as it now exists has some Falklands, both historical and hysterical, available too.

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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 6:49:51 PM

Terminus

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The Lightning was the only one... And it was more a rocket, like the F-104.

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Post #: 307

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 7:09:47 PM

Banquet

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A fantastic looking aircraft imo and quite capable in itself.. but only armed with 2 missiles and no guns!

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Post #: 308

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 7:41:54 PM

Terminus

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Not correct, the Lightning had two 30mm Aden cannon, and could swap its Firestreak missiles for two more.

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Post #: 309

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 7:46:59 PM

Banquet

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Hmm, my mistake. I though the cannon was only available as a pod.

Edit: Looks like I was thinking of the F2, which had the cannon removed.

< Message edited by Banquet -- 8/13/2007 7:47:48 PM >

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Post #: 310

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 8:05:42 PM

Terminus

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That's probably it.

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Post #: 311

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 8:40:59 PM

Neilster

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The lightning had excellent performance in many ways. If I could be a techo party-pooper for a second (and I know this first-hand from a RAF SNCO who spent time at my RAAF squadron on exchange. Hello Harry!) as the engines were arranged vertically, if the top one developed a fuel or oil leak, it tended to spill on to the bottom one and start a fire. The pilot had no choice then but to point the jet over the North Sea and eject.

Having said that, it was a lovely aircraft, reeking of 60s highly supersonic, edge of space, analogue coolness. I hope you enjoy this clip. Especially the blonde at about 2:54

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Acs7fUmfE

Cheers, Neilster

< Message edited by Neilster -- 8/13/2007 8:41:34 PM >

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Post #: 312

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 8:55:26 PM

Banquet

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Great video Neilster!

I've just been reading it could beat an F-15 to 30,000ft. Quite an aeroplane. Also read there are no flying Lightnings left in the UK.. that is very sad if true.

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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 8:59:16 PM

Dixie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

The lightning had excellent performance in many ways. If I could be a techo party-pooper for a second (and I know this first-hand from a RAF SNCO who spent time at my RAAF squadron on exchange. Hello Harry!) as the engines were arranged vertically, if the top one developed a fuel or oil leak, it tended to spill on to the bottom one and start a fire. The pilot had no choice then but to point the jet over the North Sea and eject.

Having said that, it was a lovely aircraft, reeking of 60s highly supersonic, edge of space, analogue coolness. I hope you enjoy this clip. Especially the blonde at about 2:54

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Acs7fUmfE

Cheers, Neilster

I think that the never actually found the Lightning's top speed either, every time they fired up the reheat the fuel would run out whilst the 'plane was still accelerating. Plus it featured in the world's greatest flight safety video Dr FOD and Miss Wayward-Body

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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 9:05:37 PM

Neilster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

The lightning had excellent performance in many ways. If I could be a techo party-pooper for a second (and I know this first-hand from a RAF SNCO who spent time at my RAAF squadron on exchange. Hello Harry!) as the engines were arranged vertically, if the top one developed a fuel or oil leak, it tended to spill on to the bottom one and start a fire. The pilot had no choice then but to point the jet over the North Sea and eject.

Having said that, it was a lovely aircraft, reeking of 60s highly supersonic, edge of space, analogue coolness. I hope you enjoy this clip. Especially the blonde at about 2:54

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Acs7fUmfE

Cheers, Neilster

I think that the never actually found the Lightning's top speed either, every time they fired up the reheat the fuel would run out whilst the 'plane was still accelerating. Plus it featured in the world's greatest flight safety video Dr FOD and Miss Wayward-Body

Oh yeah man! We've been here before. I saw that bad-boy. Misogynist, early 70s, training-video gold! I wish it was on YouTube. 5 stars for sure. Miss Wayward-Body was hot!

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 315

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 9:20:44 PM

HMSWarspite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

The lightning had excellent performance in many ways. If I could be a techo party-pooper for a second (and I know this first-hand from a RAF SNCO who spent time at my RAAF squadron on exchange. Hello Harry!) as the engines were arranged vertically, if the top one developed a fuel or oil leak, it tended to spill on to the bottom one and start a fire. The pilot had no choice then but to point the jet over the North Sea and eject.

Having said that, it was a lovely aircraft, reeking of 60s highly supersonic, edge of space, analogue coolness. I hope you enjoy this clip. Especially the blonde at about 2:54

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Acs7fUmfE

Cheers, Neilster

Really good vid. I liked the intake condensation as he runs up at c3:03.....[wife leaves room

]. The blond was pretty good too!

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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 9:23:02 PM

HMSWarspite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Banquet

Great video Neilster!

I've just been reading it could beat an F-15 to 30,000ft. Quite an aeroplane. Also read there are no flying Lightnings left in the UK.. that is very sad if true.

Quite true. Only place left is South Africa (Thunder City). CAA would never give a permit to fly to one of those babies, the accident stats get a little worrying!

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Post #: 317

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 9:50:29 PM

Terminus

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I believe they have Buccaneers and Hunters down there as well...

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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 9:52:24 PM

Jeffrey H.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

Is that an SU-30 you keep posting pictures of Ike? Or is it another one of your brand new Argentinian designed aircraft that co-incidentally look remarkably similar to other designs?

You know the proposed Argentine fighter does look very similiar to a Euro Fighter. Not suprising. I think it's a Argentine/German project. You ever seen it? Almost identical actually.

quote:

but short-legged Sea Harriers and the absence of long range airborne radar meant the Royal Navy could not protect the landing operations very well without putting the carriers in mortal peril. My guess is a USN operation to retake the Falklands would have involved 10 SSN's and 3 carrier battle groups.

Argentina wouldn�t last 3 seconds against the USA. No one would...yet. Maybe the Chinese eventually. The first time around we lost to the US Air missile. Not the British pilots. Yes, No Airborne radar hurt the Brits a lot.

quote:

I agree the Argy pilots did have balls - being shot down over the South Atlantic was not a good fate - and many brave men simply dissapeared.

55.

But maybe something good comes from this thread....
Would it sell?

Somehow a political VC must be introduced, mainly for the Argentines.

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Post #: 319

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/13/2007 10:09:27 PM

Cap Mandrake

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I looks like the Lightning achieved its speed with thrust alone. Can you imagine what that thing does to the surrounding atmosphere?

Also, what is with the shocks on the front landing gear? I would have motion sickeness before I got the thing out of the hanger.

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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/14/2007 2:33:32 AM

Ike99

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As far as I know these have never been released to the public...

This is a 17 second audio/video clip with the actual cockpit recordings of the Argentine pilots while bombing the British landing in San Carlos Bay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgnVKJRl56Q

Translation...

�You were perfect sir, I saw it falling from 42, I saw it clearly, YEAHHHAA! It hit the bow, it exploded perfect,...against the head.�

< Message edited by Ike99 -- 8/14/2007 2:36:30 AM >

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Post #: 321

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/14/2007 6:16:17 AM

Neilster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I looks like the Lightning achieved its speed with thrust alone. Can you imagine what that thing does to the surrounding atmosphere?

Also, what is with the shocks on the front landing gear? I would have motion sickeness before I got the thing out of the hanger.

Thrust, streamlining, area-ruling...the usual stuff.

The big pitch-forward on the nose undercarriage is the pilot testing the brakes. The ground-crew guy doing the launch is looking for anything unusual (unusual is bad in this business) like a cloud of hydraulic fluid escaping as a mist from around the brakes (the hyd fluid pressure is about 2500 psi). He has checked a lot of other stuff too, like that it's safe for engine start, flight control operation, flaps, speed-brake, that are are no fuel leaks or signs of fire... Trust me. I've launched a lot of fighters

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/14/2007 10:01:31 AM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

As far as I know these have never been released to the public...

This is a 17 second audio/video clip with the actual cockpit recordings of the Argentine pilots while bombing the British landing in San Carlos Bay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgnVKJRl56Q

Translation...

�You were perfect sir, I saw it falling from 42, I saw it clearly, YEAHHHAA! It hit the bow, it exploded perfect,...against the head.�

Nice BBC footage there.

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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/14/2007 1:20:05 PM

Raverdave

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Buccaneers !!!!! Now there was a SEXY aircraft !

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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/14/2007 1:27:29 PM

Terminus

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Yup!

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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/14/2007 4:49:03 PM

Cap Mandrake

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

I looks like the Lightning achieved its speed with thrust alone. Can you imagine what that thing does to the surrounding atmosphere?

Also, what is with the shocks on the front landing gear? I would have motion sickeness before I got the thing out of the hanger.

Thrust, streamlining, area-ruling...the usual stuff.

The big pitch-forward on the nose undercarriage is the pilot testing the brakes. The ground-crew guy doing the launch is looking for anything unusual (unusual is bad in this business) like a cloud of hydraulic fluid escaping as a mist from around the brakes (the hyd fluid pressure is about 2500 psi). He has checked a lot of other stuff too, like that it's safe for engine start, flight control operation, flaps, speed-brake, that are are no fuel leaks or signs of fire... Trust me. I've launched a lot of fighters

Cheers, Neilster

Streamlining?

I thought the brakes looked a bit grabby. It didn't occur to me he might be testing them. The things nearly scape tail when they rotate too. Nice looking aircraft. Looks a bit like an F-86 on steroids.

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Post #: 326

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/14/2007 4:52:28 PM

Cap Mandrake

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This would be a fun gag in the War Room:

Grand Poobah RAF Officer: Where are my Buccaneers?

Junior RAF Officer (soon to loose a few pay grades): Under your Buccan' hat sir.

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Post #: 327

RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/14/2007 10:21:02 PM

7th Somersets

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quote:

Nice BBC footage there.

I agree - I remember seeing the footage in the war.

Did the bomb hit? It looked like a miss to me.

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RE: The Falklands Conflict - 8/15/2007 4:50:36 AM

EUBanana

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Pointless Trivia Alert - in the Wing Commander movie (not exactly cinemas finest hour) the space fighter props in it were all Lightning shells they picked up from a scrapheap...

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