RE: Italy the Forgotten Land

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Commander - Europe at War Gold >> RE: Italy the Forgotten Land

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RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/27/2007 2:20:44 AM

Vypuero

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From: Philadelphia, PA USA
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We could put a capital city for UK in Egypt - but it would be quite powerful and let them build units there - almost too good or more realistic? What do people think? I would probably start the UK with less there then.

(in reply to Bossy573)

Post #: 31

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/27/2007 2:36:50 AM

SMK-at-work

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some UK units SHOULD be built in Egypt - the NZ, Australian and Sth African divisions more or less "start" there, as did Indian formations that fought in the Med.

(in reply to Vypuero)

Post #: 32

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/27/2007 4:27:44 AM

targul

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Game would be significantly more accurate and balanced if the British could use one of the cities in Egypt as a building location. It would need to be an inland city since ship building facilities are not available. It would simulate the Commonwealth troops that are ignored at this point.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 33

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/27/2007 6:47:04 AM

Vypuero

Posts: 232
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From: Philadelphia, PA USA
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Well no, the commonwealth troops are not really ignored - the UK did not have 2 corps of infantry in Egypt, in fact they didn't have all their armor their either. So that is an exaggeration to say that. On the other hand - air was not that hard to get there and it is here.

(in reply to targul)

Post #: 34

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/27/2007 7:31:10 AM

SMK-at-work

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the Western Desert force contained the only formed UK armoured division in 1941 (7th armoured)�- and 1 infantry division (4th Indian). the Indians were removed to attack Ethiopia and replaced by the 6th australian division. the force was eventually redesignate XIII Corps

The Italian 10th army opposite them had 10 infantry divisions and a small armoured group - of which only 4 divisions and het armour invaded Egypt. Both foces in Nth Africa are well overstrength at the start of the war - the British in terms of Corps, the Italians in terms of being able to attack with their whole army.

the one follows the other - once you've put the Italians in at full strength and unlimited ability to attack you can't jsut give the Brits their 1 corps because it would be overwhelmed too easily. So poor design requires further compromise.

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 8/27/2007 7:38:28 AM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/27/2007 7:55:20 AM

VonManteuffel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

We could put a capital city for UK in Egypt - but it would be quite powerful and let them build units there - almost too good or more realistic?� What do people think?� I would probably start the UK with less there then.

I was considering this too, because the Brits in Africa are so pathetic as it is. Maybe allowing them to operate to Egypt(rather than build there) would be a workable compromise?

(in reply to Vypuero)

Post #: 36

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/27/2007 11:32:19 AM

Dave Ferguson

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Whatever is done needs playtesting. The ability to build in Egypt should mean several more corps available in summer 40. With these the UK should be able to give the italians a bad time and throw them out of Libya.

I still think adding the Persian Gulf and a transport loop would be a good idea.

Dave

(in reply to VonManteuffel)

Post #: 37

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/27/2007 11:46:04 PM

Vypuero

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From: Philadelphia, PA USA
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I have a solution but it requires a small code change and has a side effect. The side affect is you can build in any "home" city even if it is in low supply - so that means if Kiev is cut off from Moscow you could still build 1 unit there. I doubt it would matter too much. This would allow me to designate a city in Egypt as a UK city (the others are indicated as cities originally owned by Libya, Egypt, etc so would not count) and they could build 1 unit there each turn - still pretty strong, but probably more realistic all things considered.

(in reply to Dave Ferguson)

Post #: 38

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/27/2007 11:52:25 PM

targul

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Only good way is too really start with the correct forces and then augment those forces with scripts. Regrettfully they did not like the idea of using the correct forces. Also they said they would not bring additional units by scripts so I cannot think of another possibility that has any basis.

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Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

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Post #: 39

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/28/2007 3:44:52 PM

Syagrius

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Last night I started the 1942 campaign. If you want more historical setting, the scenarios are the way to go: the British are very strong in Africa (they have Tobruk, 2 armoured corps 1 Mot corps and lots of Infantry) and there is no way I am going to take the Middle East Oil fields.

(in reply to targul)

Post #: 40

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/28/2007 4:09:34 PM

Vypuero

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From: Philadelphia, PA USA
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The 39 was tweaked more for balance, and the scenarios were much closer to the true OOBs. I agree we could start NAF with very little for both sides, but we added the forces so each side had a fairly strong force without shipping them in, since after all Italy doesn't enter until the middle of 1940 in any case.

(in reply to Syagrius)

Post #: 41

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/28/2007 7:31:32 PM

targul

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42 scenario maybe balanced but by then the Axis is preparing for its death. I wouldnt mind 40 since Poland is a given but 42 is simply too late for me.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

(in reply to Vypuero)

Post #: 42

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/30/2007 6:37:47 AM

Happycat

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Joined: 10/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ozarkmichael

Happycat, you will win the match if you can remember( or find) what Stalin's opinion of the invasion of Italy was. I bet he put on a diplomatic smile and publicly wished the West good luck, but he privately thought it wasnt the right thing for the West to do.

Well, we might have to call this one a draw. I remember (but cannot cite a source) that Stalin's reaction to the invasion of Italy varied according to his audience. If my recollection is correct, his reaction to the Western Allies was along the lines of "I guess it will do..."; his public utterances to the Soviet citizenry barely gave a nod to what was going on in Italy; his reaction among what passed for his "inner circle" (it is doubtful he every really trusted anybody) was more positive. That positive reaction grew to euphoria as more and more Allied troops became bogged down in Italy. Some Germans were being drawn off of the Russian Front, and more importantly, Allied progress was slo-o-o-o-w. As you correctly point out, Stalin was a strategic thinker, and slow progress in Italy (and later in western Europe) totally worked for him. Undoubtedly he wanted to see lots of Allied soldiers involved in fierce fighting with the Wehrmacht. What he did NOT want to see was any development that threatened to translate into a rapid Allied advance towards Berlin, Vienna, or Prague.

So, I will take no point for this one, but appreciate the discussion!

(in reply to ozarkmichael)

Post #: 43

RE: Italy the Forgotten Land - 8/30/2007 12:03:08 PM

Tordenskiold

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I would just like to add some related information: Vichy France also covered Marocco, Algerie and Tunis. The allied did not exactly know which way the French forces here would react when they launched Torch in 1942, landing in both Cassablanca, Oran and Alger. It was some fighting but pretty soon the Vichy forces, gave up.

German and Italian forces where deployed and in Algeria and Tunis the US forces for the first time met the Germans in land battle. Later US officers said that if it havent been for the experience gained here, D-day could have been a catastroph. The Axis surrendered in early 43 pushed from both west and east and 200.000 Axis forces went in to captivity. Based on this, the PP from Marocco, Algerie and Tunis should benifit the Axis. Do they? Anyhow, it is not correct that these where independent countries and the Axis forces should be free to move in these areas. If the PP points for Vichy France goes to the Axis, the same should apply to Nort Africa.

Churchill was the main architect for invading Italy to soften the Germans and divert forces away from Western Europe. He also suggested to invade Greece for the same reason, but the Americans went against it.

In the game I am playing against the AI the Allies crosses the English channel and attack directly in the area around Normandy. It seems the US forces are not first based in England, but goes straight from the US to the beaches. I crush them easily even though they have full superiority on sea and in the air. I would like the Allies to invade Italy, which would be much more easy for them since all I have their is garrison troops. It seems the Allies do not "see" my forces (FOG on).

Furhtermore, if the Allied started by taking North Africa it would (by my suggestion) mean that
they conquer some PP from the Axis and tie up some Axis forces as well.

(in reply to Bossy573)

Post #: 44