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RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 1:45:31 PM

Froonp

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There was an error in the counting of the NEI Tankers (the total was good 64 / 15), so I repost it

Here is one example of CW Convoy route. The latest I used.
This is one that uses 79 CP (shows Tankers too).
It avoids the Med and have food in flames conditions satisfied (1 Indian / Australian / South African RP to UK).

CP = Convoy Points
TK = Tanker Points

UK (2 RP) = 0 CP
Cyprus (1 RP) Eastern Med --> Western Med --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of biscay = 4 CP
South Africa (2 RP) Rhodesia --> Northern Rhodesia --> Belgian Congo --> Gulf of Guinea --> Cape Verde --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 8 CP
Northern Rhodesia (1 RP) Belgian Congo --> Gulf of Guinea --> Cape Verde --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 4 CP
Canada (5 RP / 1 OIL) (2 PP produced there, 1 with Australian RP 1 with local RP. 1 Oil can be saved here or used for Reorg). East Coast --> North Atlantic --> Bay of Biscay / Faeroes = 12 CP / 3 TK
Venezuela (3 OIL) to Canada (Oil saved to Canada) Carribean --> USA --> Canada = 3 TK
Port of Spain to UK (1 OIL) Carribean --> East Coast --> North Atlantic --> Bay of Biscay / Faeroes = 4 TK (this one can be avoided, and so 4 more reserve CP gained, so this oil would be stored / used where it is produced and not stored in England)
British Guyana (1 RP) Mouth of the Amazon --> Cape Verde Basin --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 4 CP (this one avoids the Central Atlantic purposedly, to avoid having 1 more sea area to guard)
NEI to India / Australia (2 OIL) East Indian Ocean --> Bay of Bengal OR East Indian Ocean --> Cape Naturaliste = 4 TK
India 2 RP to UK around Africa (4 RP) (2 PP produced here with local RP) Arabian Sea --> Azanian Sea --> Mozambique Channel --> Cape Basin --> Gulf of Guinea --> Cape Verde --> Cape St Vincent --> Bay of Biscay = 16 CP
Persia to Kuwait (1 OIL) Persian Gulf = 1 TK
Australia 1 RP to UK through Panama (3 RP) Tasman Sea --> New Zealand Coast --> South Pacific --> Austral --> Capricorn --> Gulf of Panama --> Carribean --> East Coast --> North Atlantic --> Bay of Biscay / Faeroes = 10 CP
Australia 1 RP to Canada (3 RP) Tasman Sea --> New Zealand Coast --> South Pacific --> Austral --> East Pacific --> Mexican Coast --> USA --> Canada = 6 CP

Total = 64 CP / 15 TK (79)

This setup brings 14 RP and 2 Oil to UK, where you only need 15 resources to produce at full.

But it only leaves 2 CP as a reserve which is few and dangerous.
You can save some CP by not shipping both Indian RP to UK (shipping only 1), thus saving 8 CP. You will open this route when you'll have enough CP.
You can instead save some CP by not shipping one of the Canadian RP, saving only 3 CP.
This setup also does not cover the Red Sea, which is dangerous at some point in the game.

Anyway, this is only an initial setup, as the CW is supposed to build some (as Christopher advised, and with which I agree), and gain some by Minor Country alignements :
- Belgium : 2 CP
- Denmark : 4 CP 2 TK
- Netherlands : 4 CP 6 TK (not always)
- Poland : 1 CP
- Yugoslavia : 1 CP.

And sometimes :
- Greece : 6 CP 4 TK

There are also some resources that are not shipped :
- Malaya

And some resources that will soon be erratically shipped:
- Cyprus

There are also some new RP sources that will open up as the game evolves :
- Belgian Congo : 1 RP who needs 4 CP to ship
- Dutch Guyana : 1 RP who needs 4 CP to ship (avoiding Central Pacific)
- Portugal (eventualy) : 1 RP who needs 1 CP to ship
- Sardinia : 1 RP who needs 3 CP to ship
- Algeria : 1 RP who needs 2 CP to ship
- Senegal : 1 RP who needs 3 CP to ship

For each (well not each, it depends on the number of Oil that the CW actualy brings to the UK, here it is 2, but it can be more later) of those RP that the CW ships to UK, this is one more Oil that the CW can save.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 151

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 1:46:42 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Graf Zeppelin

Really nice.

I cant belive that i have never taken venzuelan oil to canada, i allways brought it over the atlantic... but this make a lot more sense.

Andi

This is one of the tricks a CW player must know

(in reply to Arron69)

Post #: 152

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 5:38:04 PM

Mziln

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Have you compaired this to the CWiF CW setup?

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Post #: 153

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 5:58:01 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Have you compaired this to the CWiF CW setup?

Compared what to the CWiF CW setup ? What do you mean ?

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 154

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 6:18:42 PM

Arron69

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I think he means the default setup.

But this goes throught the med, and brings as much to UK as possible. The main convoylink goes from the aussies to the uk. Expensive and soon to be impossible to keep without losses.

Andi.

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Post #: 155

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 6:19:52 PM

Mziln

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Have you compaired this to the CWiF CW setup?

Compared what to the CWiF CW setup ? What do you mean ?

I know you have CWiF have you checked the CW set up verses your setup?

According to my notes The CWiF setup for the CW:

Transports 15 RP and 7 oil.
Takes 56 CP and 19 Tankers.

That would leave you 5 CP/Tankers (or 7 CP/Tankers using the SiF, CLiF, and CoiF option).

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Post #: 156

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 6:38:43 PM

lomyrin

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I tend to rail the Persian oil to Cairo, saving 1 convoy. Then use that oil for reorgs to avoid being a fat target for the Axis. Often this oil is only available for the CW in the early game
until Russia takes out Persia, as often occurs.

Lars

(in reply to Arron69)

Post #: 157

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 7:05:28 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
I know you have CWiF have you checked the CW set up verses your setup?

According to my notes The CWiF setup for the CW:

Transports 15 RP and 7 oil.
Takes 56 CP and 19 Tankers.

That would leave you 5 CP/Tankers (or 7 CP/Tankers using the SiF, CLiF, and CoiF option).

I have CWiF, both the latest Beta on which we worked with Chris, and the one ADG is solding, and I did not remember that it had a default CP setup for the CW (or for any other country). I remember me building my pipelines alone. But maybe I ignored the default setup ? Maybe I'll look at it one day, but I did not launch it since months (years ?) ago now.

Where does this setup goes through, and does it complies with Food in Flames optional rule ? I'm sure it goes through the Med, with about 3-4 CP per sea area. A blessing for Italy, and a time bomb for CW who will loose them, and will be forced to go around Africa to avoid loosing more. So I prefer to avoid the Med from the start. MWiF uses SiF, it is mandatory, so the Global War CW CP setup has 81 CP. So this setup leaves 6 reserve CP (it uses 75).

I did not say that my CP setup was the best in town, I even warned Steve that it was a special setup. But it avoids the Med (which is a must for me) and complies with Food in Flames optional rule. And if you do not ship 1 of the 2 Indian RP for a few turns (the time to get more CP), you have about 9 Reserve CP on turn 1 (putting one useless CP -- transport nothing but helps putting Egypt in supply -- in the Red Sea) which is very confortable IMO. This setup needs management in the first couple of years, that is you need to improve it as time goes by, and I gave the list of future resources that you were to get, and the list of those you were to loose. For my tastes, this is the best I achieved.

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 158

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 7:07:13 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

I tend to rail the Persian oil to Cairo, saving 1 convoy. Then use that oil for reorgs to avoid being a fat target for the Axis. Often this oil is only available for the CW in the early game
until Russia takes out Persia, as often occurs.
Lars

That's another option too. I do that too, if I can't spare the Tanker to Kuwait, or if it sinks. I prefer to try to ship it to Kuwait though, because it is less dependent on Syria. Anyway, I have other Tankers later in the game in the Persian Gulf to ship the Persian Oil that USSR lends me

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Post #: 159

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 7:09:34 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Graf Zeppelin

I think he means the default setup.

But this goes throught the med, and brings as much to UK as possible. The main convoylink goes from the aussies to the uk. Expensive and soon to be impossible to keep without losses.

Andi.

The Aussie RP also go through the Med ??? That means more than 5 CP per sea area ?

Wow, fiesta in Italy !!!!!

I think that we can call that the "Beginner's setup".

(in reply to Arron69)

Post #: 160

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 8:23:52 PM

composer99

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I'll write up the convoy chain I normally use when I get home from work.

Like Patrice, I usually forgo shipping through the Med.

Edit:
The possible combinations that we have to deal with in MWiF are:
Food in Flames (No), SiF
Food in Flames (No), SiF & Tankers
Food in Flames (Yes), SiF
Food in Flames (Yes), SiF & Tankers

< Message edited by composer99 -- 9/7/2007 9:48:14 PM >

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Post #: 161

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 9:23:58 PM

dale1066

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Anything wrong with using the french CPs to ship CW resources through the med ? or is there a better use for them?

Is the italian player so keen to sink them?

At the first opportunity (second turn I believe) I usually like to lend a few resources to France for a couple of turns at least. What changes to the pipelines do you envisage for that scenario. How many and where from would be best ? Cyprus pretty definately, persian oil? India? malaya? australian?

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Post #: 162

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 11:05:23 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I'll write up the convoy chain I normally use when I get home from work.

Like Patrice, I usually forgo shipping through the Med.

Edit:
The possible combinations that we have to deal with in MWiF are:
Food in Flames (No), SiF
Food in Flames (No), SiF & Tankers
Food in Flames (Yes), SiF
Food in Flames (Yes), SiF & Tankers

Well, for tankers, if you give a CP route that use the tanker option, you also have the one for games without tanker option, you just replace the tankers with CP.
So its just whever you play Food in Flames or not. Food in Flames only changes one Australian RP that will go to Canada instead of going to the UK (6 CP instead of 10 to use, and the route is less exposed). The other RP are already going to the UK.

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 163

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 11:09:02 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066
Anything wrong with using the french CPs to ship CW resources through the med ? or is there a better use for them?

Shipping French RP. Senegalese, Indochinese & Iraqi.

quote:

Is the italian player so keen to sink them?

During his surprise impulse, offering him 2 sea areas with 5-7 CP in each just to his doorstep is a good present. Now, he can also miss both searches. If he finds, you can loose about 10 CP, plus you won't be able to re create the route around Africa due to the loss, so you loose more RP each turn. Unless you were near to ready to switch to the around Africa road already.

(in reply to dale1066)

Post #: 164

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 11:10:01 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066
At the first opportunity (second turn I believe) I usually like to lend a few resources to France for a couple of turns at least. What changes to the pipelines do you envisage for that scenario. How many and where from would be best ? Cyprus pretty definately, persian oil? India? malaya? australian?

You can lend whatever RP you want, they nearly all finish up in the Bay of Biscay. They'll go to Bordeaux instead of Liverpool. No CP route to change.

(in reply to dale1066)

Post #: 165

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 11:10:11 PM

Arron69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Where does this setup goes through, and does it complies with Food in Flames optional rule ? I'm sure it goes through the Med, with about 3-4 CP per sea area. A blessing for Italy, and a time bomb for CW who will loose them, and will be forced to go around Africa to avoid loosing more. So I prefer to avoid the Med from the start. MWiF uses SiF, it is mandatory, so the Global War CW CP setup has 81 CP. So this setup leaves 6 reserve CP (it uses 75).

The CWIF default setup looks like this:
Bay of Biscay: 15cp.
Faeroes Gap: 1cp.
North Atlantic: 8cp.
US East coast: 10cp.
Caribbean Sea: 4cp.
Cape verde Basin: 1cp.
Mouths of the Amazon: 1cp.
W. Med: 7cp.
E. Med: 7cp.
Red Sea: 5cp.
Arabian Sea: 5cp.
Bay of Bengal 4cp.
E. Indian Ocean: 2cp.
Cape Naturaliste: 2cp.
South China sea: 1cp.
Convoy Points in total: 89.
Food in flames and tankers are not implemented in CWIF, at least not my version.

Andi.

_____________________________

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Post #: 166

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 11:35:26 PM

Froonp

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quote:

This setup brings 14 RP and 2 Oil to UK, where you only need 15 resources to produce at full.

Gloups, my CP setup miss an RP to the UK indeed, as you don't need 15, you need 17, as I counted the 2 RP that are in the UK in the list.
Well, with the PM at 0.50, this doesn't hurt, but as soon as it is at 0.75, you need to ship 1 RP more.
This must be the reason why I initialy shipped 1 Venezuelian oil to the UK factories in our game.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 167

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 11:43:54 PM

dale1066

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quote:

During his surprise impulse, offering him 2 sea areas with 5-7 CP in each just to his doorstep is a good present. Now, he can also miss both searches. If he finds, you can loose about 10 CP, plus you won't be able to re create the route around Africa due to the loss, so you loose more RP each turn. Unless you were near to ready to switch to the around Africa road already.

Wasn't thinking of having any CW CP in the med just use the French ones say four in each half of the med to ship a few CW/French RPs through, using the CW CPs outside the med, keeping any CW CPs saved for setting up the long route when required. After all if the French CPs get sunk by the italians it means no vichy CP to get any vichy resources back to france. Am I correct in assuming that Vichy french resources become saved BPs available to germany when vichy collapses?

Just checking out alternatives really, don't like the idea of losing all those CPs either

also timing the switch seems quite difficult/risky.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 168

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/7/2007 11:57:49 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066
After all if the French CPs get sunk by the italians it means no vichy CP to get any vichy resources back to france. Am I correct in assuming that Vichy french resources become saved BPs available to germany when vichy collapses?

Completely correct.
Correct to the point that you may need to DoW Vichy France to sink those CP yourself if he set them up (setting them up is not done easily through, as he first need to reorg them, that means tracing to oil, and then he needs to devote 1 naval impulse to that). Unless he collapses, in that case they become Free French.

(in reply to dale1066)

Post #: 169

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/8/2007 12:06:05 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Graf Zeppelin
The CWIF default setup looks like this:
Bay of Biscay: 15cp.
Faeroes Gap: 1cp.
North Atlantic: 8cp.
US East coast: 10cp.
Caribbean Sea: 4cp.
Cape verde Basin: 1cp.
Mouths of the Amazon: 1cp.
W. Med: 7cp.
E. Med: 7cp.
Red Sea: 5cp.
Arabian Sea: 5cp.
Bay of Bengal 4cp.
E. Indian Ocean: 2cp.
Cape Naturaliste: 2cp.
South China sea: 1cp.
Convoy Points in total: 89.
Food in flames and tankers are not implemented in CWIF, at least not my version.

89 ? The max is 81. This must be an error.
there are 73 listed here.
Well, I'm trying to come up with this setup, and I don't find it.
10 CP in the US East Coast, that are 3 from Ven, 1 from Guyana, 6 from Canada, but then, how does he produce in Canada ? Where are the CP that bring 2 RP to Canada ?
Also, 15 in B of Biscay + 1 in Faeroes, those 16 are made up from the 10 in East Coast, and where come the 6 others ? Must be Cape St Vincent, but it does not appear here. The 7 CP in the Med have to exit the Med in Cape St Vincent. But that would make 17 in B of Biscay + Faeroes...
1 CP in the South China sea, what it is for ? French Indochina's RP ?
7 In the Med, these must be 2 From India, 2 from Malaya, 1 for Cyprus, 1 for Persia, and maybe 1 for French Indochina.

Mmm... well... can't figure this one out..

(in reply to Arron69)

Post #: 170

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/8/2007 3:48:43 AM

Arron69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Graf Zeppelin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Where does this setup goes through, and does it complies with Food in Flames optional rule ? I'm sure it goes through the Med, with about 3-4 CP per sea area. A blessing for Italy, and a time bomb for CW who will loose them, and will be forced to go around Africa to avoid loosing more. So I prefer to avoid the Med from the start. MWiF uses SiF, it is mandatory, so the Global War CW CP setup has 81 CP. So this setup leaves 6 reserve CP (it uses 75).

The CWIF default setup looks like this:
Bay of Biscay: 15cp.
Faeroes Gap: 1cp.
North Atlantic: 8cp.
US East coast: 10cp.
Caribbean Sea: 4cp.
Cape verde Basin: 1cp.
Mouths of the Amazon: 1cp.
W. Med: 7cp.
E. Med: 7cp.
Red Sea: 5cp.
Arabian Sea: 5cp.
Bay of Bengal 4cp.
E. Indian Ocean: 2cp.
Cape Naturaliste: 2cp.
South China sea: 1cp.
Convoy Points in total: 89.
Food in flames and tankers are not implemented in CWIF, at least not my version.

Andi.

hmm, must have been really tired when i wrote this...

The correct CWIF default setup looks like this:
Bay of Biscay: 15cp.
Faeroes Gap: 1cp.
North Atlantic: 8cp.
US East coast: 10cp.
Caribbean Sea: 4cp.
Cape st. Vincent: 8cp.
Cape verde Basin: 1cp.
Mouths of the Amazon: 1cp.
W. Med: 7cp.
E. Med: 7cp.
Red Sea: 5cp.
Arabian Sea: 5cp.
Bay of Bengal 4cp.
E. Indian Ocean: 2cp.
Cape Naturaliste: 2cp.
South China sea: 1cp.
Convoy Points in total: 81.
Food in flames and tankers are not implemented in CWIF, at least not my version.
This setup comes when you instead of seting up by yourself and you choose "load".

Andi.

< Message edited by Graf Zeppelin -- 9/8/2007 3:49:59 AM >

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Post #: 171

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/8/2007 9:48:25 AM

dale1066

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Agree with the setting them up being a pain

I've noticed also in Cwif another added advantage in that they can be used to Transport Italian RPS as well.

Whats the downside to an Allied DOW on Vichy does it have much impact on the allies strategy/tactics?

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Post #: 172

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/8/2007 9:55:32 AM

dale1066

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Doh! very obvious apols

I guess there might be enough slack (eg save venez oil in canada ) or spare CPs if the french want to send any BPs to the UK as well.

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Post #: 173

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/8/2007 12:59:32 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066
Whats the downside to an Allied DOW on Vichy does it have much impact on the allies strategy/tactics?

It's just preferable to wait for the USA to be at war otherwise there is not much downsides to DoW Vichy France. There are downsides to have it "hostile", but DoWing it is not enougth to have it "hostile". You need for example to enter Vichy France Home Country to make it "hostile", and at that point you don't care about that.

(in reply to dale1066)

Post #: 174

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/10/2007 8:20:10 PM

composer99

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I just discovered over the weekend that, when playing SiF, you get ASW points for every two convoy points you have instead of five.

Hard to believe I've been getting this wrong for a couple of years now...

Anyway, with this in mind, as long as you're not playing with Convoys in Flames you can probably manage a slightly less aggressive convoy building plan. As long as you're doing your best to keep the number of Axis subs down, once you reach 42 they'll begin to run into trouble anytime they try attacking a big pile of convoys, especially if you have taken care to protect them with air and surface power as well.

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Post #: 175

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/11/2007 12:23:18 AM

Mziln

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If you have Excel here is the CWiF convoy setup for World in Flames: Global War (24.4.7)

Down load ithe attachment.
Change the name to WiF Production.zip
UnZip it.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mziln -- 9/11/2007 12:26:38 AM >

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Post #: 176

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/11/2007 2:13:35 AM

brian brian

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I like to put 2 CW CP in the Med to bring the resource from Cyprus to the UK. On Turn 2 perhaps it can be lent to the French. And it is good for Malta to be in supply until you can get some White Print / Elite units there.

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Post #: 177

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/11/2007 7:04:52 PM

composer99

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An early DoW on Italy, if you can spare the units to seize Sardinia in 1939, can be worth it. Deny a resource to Italy, pick up a resource you can lend to the French (especially if Italy isn't at war with France and French cp can be used!), and get a jump on the fight for control of the Italian Coast sea area.

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Post #: 178

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/11/2007 8:56:14 PM

Jimm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

An early DoW on Italy, if you can spare the units to seize Sardinia in 1939, can be worth it. Deny a resource to Italy, pick up a resource you can lend to the French (especially if Italy isn't at war with France and French cp can be used!), and get a jump on the fight for control of the Italian Coast sea area.

I like that. Aggressive, and has US entry implications, but a good way to put the Axis on the back foot in the Med from the start. If you roll in a suprise port strike on the Italian Fleet (hopefully in La Spezia)it would be even better.

Risk of the operation is potentially having a lot of stuff out and vulnerable to the Italian fleet + land based air retaliation. You would preferably want some air cover in addition to whatever CVs you have.

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Post #: 179

RE: Convoy Route for CW - 9/11/2007 9:39:05 PM

composer99

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Largely, whether the CW can attempt a surprise attack on the Italian fleet and invade Sardinia will be contingent on what CVPs it has, whether the Italians declare war first, what defences they put in Sardinia (the wise Italian will probably have something to avert the possibility of surprise conquest), whether the US entry effect will be really detrimental (if the US, after the Allied declaration of war on Germany and the USSR occupation of East Poland, still has some sweet chits in the entry pool, they won't want the CW buggering them up even more), and whether or not the Italians have their 6-range FTR on the map (be careful if they do, go to town if they don't!).

The CW basically has to decide whether it is dealing with an aggressive Italy or not, and, if so, head them off at the pass by beating them to the punch if it can.

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~ Composer99

(in reply to Jimm)

Post #: 180