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RE: optional rules - 9/6/2007 3:40:10 PM   
Froonp


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CWiF did show you the combat odds in the status bar when you were planning attacks, and also as you added shore bombardment & support.
For sure, this was theorical combat odds because air to air combats were not yet fought, but at least you knew what your CR were with & without air support.

Nothing prevents you to look at the map and see what available support the enemy have, and to calculate the odds you would have if his support went through. At worst, you can assume that the enemy has enougth ground support to double its combat units combat factors, thus halving your mods.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 391
RE: optional rules - 9/6/2007 6:58:14 PM   
brian brian

 

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What Froonp said. If you can't factor enemy capabilities into your decisions the enemy will soon be beating you. It will be so nice to have the computer tally all the combat factors without clicking through all the stacks though.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 392
RE: optional rules - 9/6/2007 7:25:55 PM   
Zorachus99


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From: Palo Alto, CA
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Not knowing the interface I can't help.  I have no idea if this function exists.

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Post #: 393
RE: optional rules - 9/6/2007 7:56:01 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

What Froonp said. If you can't factor enemy capabilities into your decisions the enemy will soon be beating you. It will be so nice to have the computer tally all the combat factors without clicking through all the stacks though.

Yes, but you do that on the real game too. You look under every pile of units to find those ground support planes.

IIRC, Steve said that he did not want to give too many help tools for the player, so I'd be suprised if you had a list of all Ground Support Planes that can reach a given hex (would be great feature : Right Click an hex / Available Enemy Ground Support, and have the list wow would be GREAT)

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 394
RE: optional rules - 9/6/2007 8:12:12 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

What Froonp said. If you can't factor enemy capabilities into your decisions the enemy will soon be beating you. It will be so nice to have the computer tally all the combat factors without clicking through all the stacks though.

Yes, but you do that on the real game too. You look under every pile of units to find those ground support planes.

IIRC, Steve said that he did not want to give too many help tools for the player, so I'd be suprised if you had a list of all Ground Support Planes that can reach a given hex (would be great feature : Right Click an hex / Available Enemy Ground Support, and have the list wow would be GREAT)

I have on my 'desireable' features list the ability to identify all air units that can reach a hex (not disorganized, air missions available when required, ...). I am calling these "unit lists" and already have some code in place to support them as part of the interface.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 395
RE: optional rules - 9/7/2007 5:42:38 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I find most optionals to be pro-attacker or pro-defender; since each side roughly spends half the game attacking or defending a lot of them balance out across the whole game, but that's just my opinion; many folks have definite ideas on which are pro-Axis or Allied.


One of my favorite innovations in WiF has been fractional odds, so I'll repeat myself here: I'm not sure if it was invented in the WiF community but it is a great way to play wargames. I'll probably never go back to playing without it. You are rewarded for throwing in whatever you can into an important attack; the days of time-consumingly and quite unrealistically re-arranging your entire army to get just enough factors to make the next odds level are over. In WiF it wipes out a lot of extraneous fighter-bomber missions for that one or two extra points. It also improves most anyone's play as they realize the implications, resulting in faster play and more focus on the big picture that the designer is trying to paint for you. There is some resistance to the idea; some people only want to use it to go to half-odds levels like 3.5:1 in conjunction with the 2d10 and you are back to factor counting; others want to throw out all rounding of anything and just keep adding up factors and die roll modifiers with no rounding at all and let the calculator generate the final plus on the 3d10, which I kind of like to eliminate a bit of cheese, slow down the attacker a little bit and try and lower the land unit density, which can get a bit ridiculously high late in a game of WiF, but not rounding things is hard to recall after playing WiF for a long time. The third die in a fractional odds + 2d10 also makes for great wargaming tragedy and comedy ... if it wasn't for that darn 1 on the fractional I would've stayed at a 13 - / - result, now I am at 'Magic' 14. ARRRRGHHHHH! The flip side comes when you take Gibraltar via the third die getting the result up to the coveted "S" result. Try it, you'll like it.

A couple observations:
- Optionals that favor the attacker IMO must favor the Axis. Their early successes can put the Allies on the permanent defensive or at least in a lower than 50% position.

- You make it sound like you roll the third die with the others (although I may be misinterpreting), but in our games the players often want to know the fractional odds outcome before choosing the table, when they have the choice. I'd hope MWiF implements it so that you resolve the fractional odds before Blitz or Assault is chosen.

Cheers.


(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 396
RE: optional rules - 9/7/2007 7:20:59 AM   
brian brian

 

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never thought of that, we just roll three dice at once. rolling for the fractional and then picking the table seems totally wrong and would throw away all the time you just saved not counting factors to get exact odds levels. it sounds like some in your group are suspicious of the 3rd dice...I'd wager they are slow players to start with.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 397
RE: optional rules - 9/7/2007 8:11:54 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I find most optionals to be pro-attacker or pro-defender; since each side roughly spends half the game attacking or defending a lot of them balance out across the whole game, but that's just my opinion; many folks have definite ideas on which are pro-Axis or Allied.


One of my favorite innovations in WiF has been fractional odds, so I'll repeat myself here: I'm not sure if it was invented in the WiF community but it is a great way to play wargames. I'll probably never go back to playing without it. You are rewarded for throwing in whatever you can into an important attack; the days of time-consumingly and quite unrealistically re-arranging your entire army to get just enough factors to make the next odds level are over. In WiF it wipes out a lot of extraneous fighter-bomber missions for that one or two extra points. It also improves most anyone's play as they realize the implications, resulting in faster play and more focus on the big picture that the designer is trying to paint for you. There is some resistance to the idea; some people only want to use it to go to half-odds levels like 3.5:1 in conjunction with the 2d10 and you are back to factor counting; others want to throw out all rounding of anything and just keep adding up factors and die roll modifiers with no rounding at all and let the calculator generate the final plus on the 3d10, which I kind of like to eliminate a bit of cheese, slow down the attacker a little bit and try and lower the land unit density, which can get a bit ridiculously high late in a game of WiF, but not rounding things is hard to recall after playing WiF for a long time. The third die in a fractional odds + 2d10 also makes for great wargaming tragedy and comedy ... if it wasn't for that darn 1 on the fractional I would've stayed at a 13 - / - result, now I am at 'Magic' 14. ARRRRGHHHHH! The flip side comes when you take Gibraltar via the third die getting the result up to the coveted "S" result. Try it, you'll like it.

A couple observations:
- Optionals that favor the attacker IMO must favor the Axis. Their early successes can put the Allies on the permanent defensive or at least in a lower than 50% position.

- You make it sound like you roll the third die with the others (although I may be misinterpreting), but in our games the players often want to know the fractional odds outcome before choosing the table, when they have the choice. I'd hope MWiF implements it so that you resolve the fractional odds before Blitz or Assault is chosen.

Cheers.



Ah, no.

My guideline is RAW August 2004 and there is nothing in there about this. It sounds like a house rule. In MIWF the 3 dice are rolled at the same time.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 398
RE: optional rules - 9/7/2007 10:07:26 AM   
Froonp


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quote:


My guideline is RAW August 2004 and there is nothing in there about this. It sounds like a house rule. In MIWF the 3 dice are rolled at the same time.

I seem to remember the contrary from the CWiF game.
First you knew what the odd were (fractional odd rolled just before).
Then you chose the table.
Then the game rolled the game and you knew the result.
Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 399
RE: optional rules - 9/7/2007 11:43:50 AM   
Froonp


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I must be wrong, as RAW has it in sequence or play order, and in 11.16.5 Resolving attacks, you have :
- Choosing combat tables
- Odds ratios (whithin which there is Option 41: (Fractional odds))
- Rolling dice
- Results

And the Option 41: (Fractional odds) is spelled that way :
*************************************
Option 41: (Fractional odds) Round to a whole number in favour of the defender, then work out how far to the next odds ratio you are. Round this in favour of the defender to the next 10%. Roll a die just before rolling the combat die (you could roll it with the combat die if you want), to see if you find the result on the lower odds or the higher odds. If you roll the percentage or less, you resolve it on the next higher odds, otherwise on the lower odds.
*************************************

So the fractionnal odds are not rolled before you choose the table, but after.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 400
RE: optional rules - 9/7/2007 6:43:20 PM   
lomyrin


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From: San Diego
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:


My guideline is RAW August 2004 and there is nothing in there about this. It sounds like a house rule. In MIWF the 3 dice are rolled at the same time.

I seem to remember the contrary from the CWiF game.
First you knew what the odd were (fractional odd rolled just before).
Then you chose the table.
Then the game rolled the game and you knew the result.
Maybe I'm remembering wrong.


CWiF does roll the fraction first and then gives the player the choice of tables showing the die roll modifier for both assault and blitz.

Lars

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 401
RE: optional rules - 9/10/2007 3:50:31 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

CWiF does roll the fraction first and then gives the player the choice of tables showing the die roll modifier for both assault and blitz.

Lars

Upon re-reading that section of RAW it looks like we have been "house-ruling by accident". The choice of the table occurs before the fractional odds resolution, so all the dice could be rolled together.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 402
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 12:10:35 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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I thank everyone for their advice on this. Here is what I am going with for the preset optional rule sets.

This stuff is merely a convenience for the players and I am mainly concerned with giving a novice player a 3 step learning curve for the optional rules: Novice, Standard, and Advanced.

For the Novice level I almost always went with the easier setting. If having the rule On made the game easier, then it was set to On. And the same for Off. there are only a couple of places where I deviated from that criterion.

For the Standard I added a lot of stuff but left out some of the big items (e.g., Cruisers in Flames and Convoys in Flames).

For the Advanced, I included most of the chrome, only omiting a few optional rules that are either controversial, affect the play balance in a big way, or that I especailly don't like (hey, I get some perogatives!).

Again, these are not life and death decisions, and players can effortlessly ignore them all if they choose to do so.

==============

NoviceDefaultOptions: TOptions = (
Divisions: False;
Artillery: False;
Fortifications: False;
SupplyUnits: False;
CombatEngineers: False;
FlyingBoats: True;
Territorials: False;
LimitedOverseasSupply: False;
LimitedSupplyAcrossStraits: False;
HQSupport: False;
EmergencyHQSupply: False;
SyntheticOilPlants: False;
OffCityReinforcement: True;
RecruitmentLimits: False;
HQMovement: False;
BottomedShips: False;
InThePresenceOfTheEnemy: False;
SurprisedZOCs: False;
BounceCombat: False;
VWeapons: False;
AtomicBombs: False;
Frogmen: False;
SCSTransport: False;
AmphibiousRules: False;
OptionalCVSearching: False;
Pilots: False;
FoodInFlames: False;
FactoryConstruction: False;
SavingResources: True;
CarpetBombing: False;
TankBusters: False;
MotorizedMovementRates: True;
BomberATR: False;
LargeATR: False;
RailwayMovement: False;
DefensiveShoreBombardment: False;
BlitzBonus: True;
ChineseAttackWeakness: False;
FractionalOdds: False;
AlliedCombatFriction: False;
TwoD10LandCRT: False;
ExtendedAircraftRebasing: True;
VariableReorganizationCosts: False;
Partisans: True;
IsolatedReorganizationLimits: False;
OilRules: False;
HitlersWar: False;
USSRJapanCompulsoryPeace: False;
EnrouteInterception: False;
NightMissions: False;
TwinEnginedFighters: False;
FighterBombers: False;
OutclassedFighters: False;
CarrierPlanes: False;
RoughSeas: False;
LimitedAircraftInterception: False;
Internment: False;
FlyingBombs: False;
Kamikazes: False;
Offensive: True;
Ukraine: False;
Intelligence: False;
JapaneseCommandConflict: False;
SkiTroops: False;
Queens: False;
CityBasedVolunteers: False;
Siberians: True;
NavalSupplyUnits: False;
GuardsBannerArmies: False;
ChineseWarlords: True;
PartisanHQs: False;
CruisersInFlames: False;
ConvoysInFlames: False;
OilTankers: False;
ConstructionEngineers: False;
ScrapUnits: False;
AddChineseCities: True;
UnlimitedBreakdown: False;
ExtendedGame: False;
UnrestrictedSetup: False;
NavalOffensiveChit: False;
);

StandardDefaultOptions: TOptions = (
Divisions: True;
Artillery: True;
Fortifications: True;
SupplyUnits: True;
CombatEngineers: True;
FlyingBoats: True;
Territorials: False;
LimitedOverseasSupply: True;
LimitedSupplyAcrossStraits: True;
HQSupport: True;
EmergencyHQSupply: True;
SyntheticOilPlants: True;
OffCityReinforcement: True;
RecruitmentLimits: False;
HQMovement: False;
BottomedShips: False;
InThePresenceOfTheEnemy: False;
SurprisedZOCs: False;
BounceCombat: False;
VWeapons: True;
AtomicBombs: True;
Frogmen: False;
SCSTransport: True;
AmphibiousRules: True;
OptionalCVSearching: True;
Pilots: True;
FoodInFlames: False;
FactoryConstruction: False;
SavingResources: True;
CarpetBombing: True;
TankBusters: True;
MotorizedMovementRates: True;
BomberATR: True;
LargeATR: True;
RailwayMovement: False;
DefensiveShoreBombardment: False;
BlitzBonus: False;
ChineseAttackWeakness: True;
FractionalOdds: True;
AlliedCombatFriction: True;
TwoD10LandCRT: True;
ExtendedAircraftRebasing: True;
VariableReorganizationCosts: True;
Partisans: True;
IsolatedReorganizationLimits: True;
OilRules: True;
HitlersWar: False;
USSRJapanCompulsoryPeace: True;
EnrouteInterception: False;
NightMissions: False;
TwinEnginedFighters: True;
FighterBombers: True;
OutclassedFighters: True;
CarrierPlanes: True;
RoughSeas: False;
LimitedAircraftInterception: False;
Internment: False;
FlyingBombs: False;
Kamikazes: True;
Offensive: True;
Ukraine: False;
Intelligence: False;
JapaneseCommandConflict: False;
SkiTroops: True;
Queens: True;
CityBasedVolunteers: True;
Siberians: True;
NavalSupplyUnits: True;
GuardsBannerArmies: True;
ChineseWarlords: True;
PartisanHQs: False;
CruisersInFlames: False;
ConvoysInFlames: False;
OilTankers: False;
ConstructionEngineers: False;
ScrapUnits: True;
AddChineseCities: True;
UnlimitedBreakdown: False;
ExtendedGame: False;
UnrestrictedSetup: False;
NavalOffensiveChit: False;
);

EnhancedDefaultOptions: TOptions = (
Divisions: True;
Artillery: True;
Fortifications: True;
SupplyUnits: True;
CombatEngineers: True;
FlyingBoats: True;
Territorials: True;
LimitedOverseasSupply: True;
LimitedSupplyAcrossStraits: True;
HQSupport: True;
EmergencyHQSupply: True;
SyntheticOilPlants: True;
OffCityReinforcement: True;
RecruitmentLimits: False;
HQMovement: False;
BottomedShips: True;
InThePresenceOfTheEnemy: True;
SurprisedZOCs: False;
BounceCombat: True;
VWeapons: True;
AtomicBombs: True;
Frogmen: True;
SCSTransport: True;
AmphibiousRules: True;
OptionalCVSearching: True;
Pilots: True;
FoodInFlames: False;
FactoryConstruction: True;
SavingResources: True;
CarpetBombing: True;
TankBusters: True;
MotorizedMovementRates: True;
BomberATR: True;
LargeATR: True;
RailwayMovement: False;
DefensiveShoreBombardment: True;
BlitzBonus: False;
ChineseAttackWeakness: True;
FractionalOdds: True;
AlliedCombatFriction: True;
TwoD10LandCRT: True;
ExtendedAircraftRebasing: True;
VariableReorganizationCosts: True;
Partisans: True;
IsolatedReorganizationLimits: True;
OilRules: True;
HitlersWar: False;
USSRJapanCompulsoryPeace: True;
EnrouteInterception: False;
NightMissions: True;
TwinEnginedFighters: True;
FighterBombers: True;
OutclassedFighters: True;
CarrierPlanes: True;
RoughSeas: False;
LimitedAircraftInterception: False;
Internment: True;
FlyingBombs: True;
Kamikazes: True;
Offensive: True;
Ukraine: False;
Intelligence: False;
JapaneseCommandConflict: False;
SkiTroops: True;
Queens: True;
CityBasedVolunteers: True;
Siberians: True;
NavalSupplyUnits: True;
GuardsBannerArmies: True;
ChineseWarlords: True;
PartisanHQs: True;
CruisersInFlames: True;
ConvoysInFlames: True;
OilTankers: True;
ConstructionEngineers: True;
ScrapUnits: True;
AddChineseCities: True;
UnlimitedBreakdown: True;
ExtendedGame: False;
UnrestrictedSetup: False;
NavalOffensiveChit: False;


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 403
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 12:41:28 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
Some comments :

For the Advanced set, you activated CoiF and not Food in Flames.
Food in Flames was designed to give the CW the BP necessary to build the ASW unit they need now that (playing with CoiF) they have no more built-in ASW in their CP units.
So, you should activate Food in Flames if activating CoiF.

For the Advanced set, you chose not to activate Japanese Command Conflict.
This is a realism option that tries to put in the game the rivality that opposed the IJN and the IJA, and that led to large wastes of energy, and lots of battles. Have you seen "Letters fro Iwo Jima" that C Eastwood did ? It shows that pretty well. A WWII game without this option is not a WWII game, so I think that it should be activated in the hightest level of option choices.

For the Novice choice, you activate Blitz Bonus, and not for the 2 other sets of options ? Why ? Blitz options were designed for the play with the 2d10 CRT, so it is bizarre to include them in an 1d10 game, and not in the full chrome 2d10 one. I think that this choice should be reversed. BLitz Bonus should be activated for 2d10 play, and unactivated with 1d10 play.

For the Advanced set, you activate the In The Presence Of The Enemy that is in my opinion one of the worst options in the game, resulting in Japan spreading lone cruisers in the Pacific, just top make the TF-58 Armada slow down and unable to wreak havoc in the Japan home waters. If the option required that the blocking TF was at least half the size of the moving TF, but here as is, it is pretty much ridiculous (personal opinion).

On the other hand, you choose in the Advanced set not to activate the En route Interception option that gives a new layer of realism in the game, allowing to intercept long ranged air missions on their way, rather than only at their target. I would reverse this choice.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 404
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 1:03:30 AM   
Zorachus99


Posts: 1066
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Palo Alto, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

For the Novice choice, you activate Blitz Bonus, and not for the 2 other sets of options ? Why ? Blitz options were designed for the play with the 2d10 CRT, so it is bizarre to include them in an 1d10 game, and not in the full chrome 2d10 one. I think that this choice should be reversed. BLitz Bonus should be activated for 2d10 play, and unactivated with 1d10 play.


Incorrect. The blitz table has been around for as long as I can remember, which includes the old 1d6 tables. Anyone remember what it was like before the 1d10 was used?

Regardless, the blitz combat table should be used in novice play. It's primary effect is to allow you to advance an additional hex, which I consider intuitive.

_____________________________

Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 405
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 1:05:13 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Some comments :

For the Advanced set, you activated CoiF and not Food in Flames.
Food in Flames was designed to give the CW the BP necessary to build the ASW unit they need now that (playing with CoiF) they have no more built-in ASW in their CP units.
So, you should activate Food in Flames if activating CoiF.

For the Advanced set, you chose not to activate Japanese Command Conflict.
This is a realism option that tries to put in the game the rivality that opposed the IJN and the IJA, and that led to large wastes of energy, and lots of battles. Have you seen "Letters fro Iwo Jima" that C Eastwood did ? It shows that pretty well. A WWII game without this option is not a WWII game, so I think that it should be activated in the hightest level of option choices.

For the Novice choice, you activate Blitz Bonus, and not for the 2 other sets of options ? Why ? Blitz options were designed for the play with the 2d10 CRT, so it is bizarre to include them in an 1d10 game, and not in the full chrome 2d10 one. I think that this choice should be reversed. BLitz Bonus should be activated for 2d10 play, and unactivated with 1d10 play.

For the Advanced set, you activate the In The Presence Of The Enemy that is in my opinion one of the worst options in the game, resulting in Japan spreading lone cruisers in the Pacific, just top make the TF-58 Armada slow down and unable to wreak havoc in the Japan home waters. If the option required that the blocking TF was at least half the size of the moving TF, but here as is, it is pretty much ridiculous (personal opinion).

On the other hand, you choose in the Advanced set not to activate the En route Interception option that gives a new layer of realism in the game, allowing to intercept long ranged air missions on their way, rather than only at their target. I would reverse this choice.


I'll reconsider Food in Flames to go with Convoy in Flames then.

Someone in a post above gave a real good reason for not using Japanese Command Conflict.

Blitz Bonus is not used with 2D10. They are mutually exclusive.

As for Enroute Interception and In the Presence of the Enemy, you are at the mercy of my preferences.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 406
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 1:36:31 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

For the Novice choice, you activate Blitz Bonus, and not for the 2 other sets of options ? Why ? Blitz options were designed for the play with the 2d10 CRT, so it is bizarre to include them in an 1d10 game, and not in the full chrome 2d10 one. I think that this choice should be reversed. BLitz Bonus should be activated for 2d10 play, and unactivated with 1d10 play.


Incorrect. The blitz table has been around for as long as I can remember, which includes the old 1d6 tables. Anyone remember what it was like before the 1d10 was used?

Regardless, the blitz combat table should be used in novice play. It's primary effect is to allow you to advance an additional hex, which I consider intuitive.

Zorachus, you are confusing two things, the Blitz Bonus has nothing to do with the Blitz CRT.
This is an optional combatm odifiers set that gives bonus to attacking armor in Blitz combat (and lot more).

You still have the Blitz CRT even if playing without the Blitz bonus optional.

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 407
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 1:48:16 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

Blitz Bonus is not used with 2D10. They are mutually exclusive.

Steve, I beleive that here is a confusion here.

In WiF FE, the Blitz bonus is not mutually exclusive with the 2d10 CRT

It is even more different, it is that the Blitz bonus are indeed included in the 2d10 CRT, just look at the 2d10 CRT table, you'll see them all on the right side, adapted for 2d10 play. They are all there, the bonus for attacking ARM / MECH, the penalty for defending ARM / MECH, the bonus for PARA dropping, the penalty for factories). You'll even see that these modifiers are all preceeded by the "==>" sign, indicating that they are optionals.

Moreover, historicaly those bonuses were first designed for 2d10 CRT, and were then converted for 1d10 CRT play in RAW7aug04, and made an optional rule by themselves.

So you can play 1d10 CRT with or without Blitz bonuses, and you can play 2d10 CRT with or without blitz bonuses, but the more common combination are 1d10 CRT without the Blitz bonuses (the early WiF FE design indeed) and 2d10 CRT with the blitz bonuses (the normal WiF FE 2d10 design).

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 408
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 1:48:59 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

As for Enroute Interception and In the Presence of the Enemy, you are at the mercy of my preferences.

Yes, fortunately I can save my own personal preferences .

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 409
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 1:50:21 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

Someone in a post above gave a real good reason for not using Japanese Command Conflict.

I can't see any.
It is as if you said me that someone gave a real good reason for not using Kamikaze, or the A-bomb, or Tank Busters. WWII without Japanese Command Conflict is not WWII .

PS : Look at "Letters from Iwo Jima", it is a blast.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 410
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 1:50:22 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Some comments :

For the Advanced set, you activated CoiF and not Food in Flames.
Food in Flames was designed to give the CW the BP necessary to build the ASW unit they need now that (playing with CoiF) they have no more built-in ASW in their CP units.
So, you should activate Food in Flames if activating CoiF.

For the Advanced set, you chose not to activate Japanese Command Conflict.
This is a realism option that tries to put in the game the rivality that opposed the IJN and the IJA, and that led to large wastes of energy, and lots of battles. Have you seen "Letters fro Iwo Jima" that C Eastwood did ? It shows that pretty well. A WWII game without this option is not a WWII game, so I think that it should be activated in the hightest level of option choices.

For the Novice choice, you activate Blitz Bonus, and not for the 2 other sets of options ? Why ? Blitz options were designed for the play with the 2d10 CRT, so it is bizarre to include them in an 1d10 game, and not in the full chrome 2d10 one. I think that this choice should be reversed. BLitz Bonus should be activated for 2d10 play, and unactivated with 1d10 play.

For the Advanced set, you activate the In The Presence Of The Enemy that is in my opinion one of the worst options in the game, resulting in Japan spreading lone cruisers in the Pacific, just top make the TF-58 Armada slow down and unable to wreak havoc in the Japan home waters. If the option required that the blocking TF was at least half the size of the moving TF, but here as is, it is pretty much ridiculous (personal opinion).

On the other hand, you choose in the Advanced set not to activate the En route Interception option that gives a new layer of realism in the game, allowing to intercept long ranged air missions on their way, rather than only at their target. I would reverse this choice.


I'll reconsider Food in Flames to go with Convoy in Flames then.

Someone in a post above gave a real good reason for not using Japanese Command Conflict.

Blitz Bonus is not used with 2D10. They are mutually exclusive.

As for Enroute Interception and In the Presence of the Enemy, you are at the mercy of my preferences.


Blitz bonus when using the 2D10 tables is of enormous importance and certainly is used by almost all palyers.

Japanese command conflict when one considers all the new Chinese cities is not a desirable option in my mind.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 411
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 1:55:16 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Some comments :

For the Advanced set, you activated CoiF and not Food in Flames.
Food in Flames was designed to give the CW the BP necessary to build the ASW unit they need now that (playing with CoiF) they have no more built-in ASW in their CP units.
So, you should activate Food in Flames if activating CoiF.

For the Advanced set, you chose not to activate Japanese Command Conflict.
This is a realism option that tries to put in the game the rivality that opposed the IJN and the IJA, and that led to large wastes of energy, and lots of battles. Have you seen "Letters fro Iwo Jima" that C Eastwood did ? It shows that pretty well. A WWII game without this option is not a WWII game, so I think that it should be activated in the hightest level of option choices.

For the Novice choice, you activate Blitz Bonus, and not for the 2 other sets of options ? Why ? Blitz options were designed for the play with the 2d10 CRT, so it is bizarre to include them in an 1d10 game, and not in the full chrome 2d10 one. I think that this choice should be reversed. BLitz Bonus should be activated for 2d10 play, and unactivated with 1d10 play.

For the Advanced set, you activate the In The Presence Of The Enemy that is in my opinion one of the worst options in the game, resulting in Japan spreading lone cruisers in the Pacific, just top make the TF-58 Armada slow down and unable to wreak havoc in the Japan home waters. If the option required that the blocking TF was at least half the size of the moving TF, but here as is, it is pretty much ridiculous (personal opinion).

On the other hand, you choose in the Advanced set not to activate the En route Interception option that gives a new layer of realism in the game, allowing to intercept long ranged air missions on their way, rather than only at their target. I would reverse this choice.


I'll reconsider Food in Flames to go with Convoy in Flames then.

Someone in a post above gave a real good reason for not using Japanese Command Conflict.

Blitz Bonus is not used with 2D10. They are mutually exclusive.

As for Enroute Interception and In the Presence of the Enemy, you are at the mercy of my preferences.


Blitz bonus when using the 2D10 tables is of enormous importance and certainly is used by almost all palyers.

Japanese command conflict when one considers all the new Chinese cities is not a desirable option in my mind.

Lars


Please compare the following.
====================

23.7 Blitz Bonus
This optional rule magnifies some of the effects of blitzkrieg warfare. Armor does better
in the open but all units do worse when attacking cities containing factories. Paratroops get an
added bonus. This optional rule cannot be used in combination with the 2D10 CRT optional
rule; they are mutually exclusive.

Note that this optional rule for Blitz Bonus is completely separate from choosing between
the Blitzkrieg and Assault tables. The standard rules discuss the effects of choosing the
Blitzkrieg table (sometimes referring to it as the Blitz table) and the optional rule for using the
2D10 land combat results table has a column labeled Blitz. Despite the similarity in words, this
Blitz Bonus optional rule is separate and distinct.

There are 4 changes to the combat calculations when the Blitz Bonus is in effect:
∙ 1 is subtracted for attacking a 2 or 3 factory stack.
∙ 1 is added to the die roll for each two attacking armor, mechanized, and HQ-A units conducting a blitzkrieg attack against a non-city clear or desert hex in fine weather.
∙ 1 is subtracted from the die roll per defending armor, mechanized, and HQ-A in a non- city clear or desert hex in fine weather.
∙ 1 is added to the die roll for each unit that paradrops (after air to air combat and anti aircraft fire, if any).

23.5 2D10 and Combat Results Table
This optional rule replaces the 1D10 (1 ten-sided die) land combat results table with the
2D10 (2 ten-side dice) land combat results table. The 2D10 is a more complex table in that it
provides for more modifiers to the dice roll and takes into account more variations in the combat
situation (e.g., terrain and units engaged effects). Besides using 2 dice and summing them to
determine the combat result, the 2D10 also converts the odds ratio into a dice roll modifier for
reading a column, rather than using the odds and the die roll as 2 indices into the CRT like the
1D10 CRT does.

The procedure for determining the modifiers, rolling the dice, etcetera, is not really
relevant to players of MWIF, since the program takes care of that for you. However, the players
should be aware of the effects of terrain, weather, unit types, odds ratio, and combat type, so they
can reasonably predict the outcome of an attack. Therefore, they are described below.

When using 2D10 optional rule, 2 dice are rolled and their values are added up. To that
sum are applied the modifiers, and the modified total is used to look up the combat result, either
on the Assault or the Blitz column of the 2D10 CRT.

The 2D10 table includes 2 new results: (1) the half disrupted, and (2) the extra loss to the
attacker in bad weather or terrain. The half disrupted result means that after the combat results
have been applied, with units retreated and/or advanced, half (rounding up) of the surviving
organized attackers remain organized, owner's choice. The other half become disorganized.

The extra loss in bad terrain and/or bad weather means the attacker takes more losses and
makes bad terrain even better for defense. However, the table is also slightly bloodier for the
defender too, so the net effect is heavier casualties all around.

Die Roll Modifications for the 2D10 CRT
∙ +1, when using the Blitzkrieg column, for each armor or mechanized unit (i.e., either corps/army or division, including HQ-A), but only if the weather is fine, the attack is into a non-city, clear or desert hex, and the unit is not attacking across a fortification.
∙ -2 for each defending armor or mechanized corps/army (including HQ-A) in a non-city, clear or desert terrain, but only during fine weather.
∙ -1 for each defending armor or mechanized division in a non-city, clear or desert terrain, but only during fine weather.
∙ -1 for each defending Anti-Tank and Anti-Air unit that has its combat factors in a pink or red circle (some of the latter do not), but only if attacked by at least one armor or mechanized unit (including HQ-A).
∙ +2 for each disorganized defending corps/army unit.
∙ +1 for each disorganized defending notional or division sized unit.
∙ Plus or minus half the reorganization value of supporting HQs (plus for the attacking HQ and minus for the defending HQ). No die roll is required for HQ support. When using the 2D10 CRT, HQ's always provide support if the player commits them to do so.
∙ -1 for each co-operating major power attacking (after the first).
∙ -4 for attacking in jungle. But +1 for each white print Japanese, Australian, or US marine attacking a jungle hex.
∙ +1 for each paradropping unit that actually lands in the hex.
∙ +2 for non-territorials attacking territorials.
∙ -2 for territorials attacking non-territorials.
∙ -2 for rain.
∙ -4 for storm.
∙ -4 for snow. But +1 for each attacking and -2 for each defending winterized unit. Winterized units are Ski, Mountain, Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, and Russian white print units.
∙ -6 for blizzard. But +1 for each attacking and -2 for each defending winterized unit.
∙ -1 for city and -1 for each preexisting factory in a city. But +1 for an HQ attacking a city,
∙ +1 for each engineer combat factor attacking a city, and -1 for each engineer combat factor defending in a city. Furthermore, the city modifiers can never be greater than 0.
∙ Attacking bonuses are halved (except for HQ support) when the combat factors of the attacking units are halved (e.g., when attacking across a river).


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 412
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 1:58:50 AM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Some comments :

For the Advanced set, you activated CoiF and not Food in Flames.
Food in Flames was designed to give the CW the BP necessary to build the ASW unit they need now that (playing with CoiF) they have no more built-in ASW in their CP units.
So, you should activate Food in Flames if activating CoiF.

For the Advanced set, you chose not to activate Japanese Command Conflict.
This is a realism option that tries to put in the game the rivality that opposed the IJN and the IJA, and that led to large wastes of energy, and lots of battles. Have you seen "Letters fro Iwo Jima" that C Eastwood did ? It shows that pretty well. A WWII game without this option is not a WWII game, so I think that it should be activated in the hightest level of option choices.

For the Novice choice, you activate Blitz Bonus, and not for the 2 other sets of options ? Why ? Blitz options were designed for the play with the 2d10 CRT, so it is bizarre to include them in an 1d10 game, and not in the full chrome 2d10 one. I think that this choice should be reversed. BLitz Bonus should be activated for 2d10 play, and unactivated with 1d10 play.

For the Advanced set, you activate the In The Presence Of The Enemy that is in my opinion one of the worst options in the game, resulting in Japan spreading lone cruisers in the Pacific, just top make the TF-58 Armada slow down and unable to wreak havoc in the Japan home waters. If the option required that the blocking TF was at least half the size of the moving TF, but here as is, it is pretty much ridiculous (personal opinion).

On the other hand, you choose in the Advanced set not to activate the En route Interception option that gives a new layer of realism in the game, allowing to intercept long ranged air missions on their way, rather than only at their target. I would reverse this choice.


I'll reconsider Food in Flames to go with Convoy in Flames then.

Someone in a post above gave a real good reason for not using Japanese Command Conflict.

Blitz Bonus is not used with 2D10. They are mutually exclusive.

As for Enroute Interception and In the Presence of the Enemy, you are at the mercy of my preferences.


What makes it exclusive? The 2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE already has the Blitz bonus incorperated into it (although slightly diferent).

quote:

Option 39: (Blitz bonus) Add 1 to the die roll for each two attacking ARM, MECH and HQ-A units conducting a blitz attack against a clear or desert (non city) hex in fine weather.

Subtract one from the roll per defending ARM, MECH and HQ-A in a (non city) clear or desert hex in fine weather.

Add 1 to the roll for each paradroping unit (after air to air combat and anti aircraft fire, if any).


quote:

OPTION 67: 2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE

+1 ~ for each paradropping unit after air to air combat and antiaircraft fire (if any).

-2 per defending ARM, MECH in a (non-city) clear, or desert hex (only -1 if the defending unit is a division) clear weather only.

Blitz Table modification (clear weather only) +1 ~ per attacking ARM and MECH in a (non city) clear or desert hex provided the unit is not attacking across a fort hexside.


_____________________________


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 413
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 2:00:21 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Blitz Bonus is not used with 2D10. They are mutually exclusive.

Steve, I beleive that here is a confusion here.

In WiF FE, the Blitz bonus is not mutually exclusive with the 2d10 CRT

It is even more different, it is that the Blitz bonus are indeed included in the 2d10 CRT, just look at the 2d10 CRT table, you'll see them all on the right side, adapted for 2d10 play. They are all there, the bonus for attacking ARM / MECH, the penalty for defending ARM / MECH, the bonus for PARA dropping, the penalty for factories). You'll even see that these modifiers are all preceeded by the "==>" sign, indicating that they are optionals.

Moreover, historicaly those bonuses were first designed for 2d10 CRT, and were then converted for 1d10 CRT play in RAW7aug04, and made an optional rule by themselves.

So you can play 1d10 CRT with or without Blitz bonuses, and you can play 2d10 CRT with or without blitz bonuses, but the more common combination are 1d10 CRT without the Blitz bonuses (the early WiF FE design indeed) and 2d10 CRT with the blitz bonuses (the normal WiF FE 2d10 design).


Yes. I was under the impression that the Blitz Bonus rules were mandatory with the 2D10. That is how I have set up the optional rule 2D10. To disable them for 2D10 seems completely wrong to me.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 414
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 2:04:17 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
So are you saying that the benefits of using a Blitz attack are inherent in the 2D10 table and therefore not a separate Blits option ?

And for that matter all the other modifiers arealso inherent and subject to any other specific option.


That I agree with.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 415
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 2:10:38 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

Please compare the following.
====================

23.7 Blitz Bonus
(...)
There are 4 changes to the combat calculations when the Blitz Bonus is in effect:
1 is subtracted for attacking a 2 or 3 factory stack.
1 is added to the die roll for each two attacking armor, mechanized, and HQ-A units conducting a blitzkrieg attack against a non-city clear or desert hex in fine weather.
1 is subtracted from the die roll per defending armor, mechanized, and HQ-A in a non- city clear or desert hex in fine weather.
1 is added to the die roll for each unit that paradrops (after air to air combat and anti aircraft fire, if any).

23.5 2D10 and Combat Results Table
(...)

Die Roll Modifications for the 2D10 CRT
+1, when using the Blitzkrieg column, for each armor or mechanized unit (i.e., either corps/army or division, including HQ-A), but only if the weather is fine, the attack is into a non-city, clear or desert hex, and the unit is not attacking across a fortification.
-2 for each defending armor or mechanized corps/army (including HQ-A) in a non-city, clear or desert terrain, but only during fine weather.
∙ -1 for each defending armor or mechanized division in a non-city, clear or desert terrain, but only during fine weather.
∙ -1 for each defending Anti-Tank and Anti-Air unit that has its combat factors in a pink or red circle (some of the latter do not), but only if attacked by at least one armor or mechanized unit (including HQ-A).
∙ +2 for each disorganized defending corps/army unit.
∙ +1 for each disorganized defending notional or division sized unit.
∙ Plus or minus half the reorganization value of supporting HQs (plus for the attacking HQ and minus for the defending HQ). No die roll is required for HQ support. When using the 2D10 CRT, HQ's always provide support if the player commits them to do so.
∙ -1 for each co-operating major power attacking (after the first).
∙ -4 for attacking in jungle. But +1 for each white print Japanese, Australian, or US marine attacking a jungle hex.
+1 for each paradropping unit that actually lands in the hex.
∙ +2 for non-territorials attacking territorials.
∙ -2 for territorials attacking non-territorials.
∙ -2 for rain.
∙ -4 for storm.
∙ -4 for snow. But +1 for each attacking and -2 for each defending winterized unit. Winterized units are Ski, Mountain, Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, and Russian white print units.
∙ -6 for blizzard. But +1 for each attacking and -2 for each defending winterized unit.
∙ -1 for city and -1 for each preexisting factory in a city. But +1 for an HQ attacking a city,
∙ +1 for each engineer combat factor attacking a city, and -1 for each engineer combat factor defending in a city. Furthermore, the city modifiers can never be greater than 0.
∙ Attacking bonuses are halved (except for HQ support) when the combat factors of the attacking units are halved (e.g., when attacking across a river).

This that you post show that some of the bonuses / penalties of the 2d10 CRT are indeed the Blitz bonuses converted to 2d10 (in fact, it is the reverse, it is that the Blitz bonuses are some of the 2d10 CRT bonuses / penalties, converted to 1d10 use).

I put them in bold & color above.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 416
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 2:14:04 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Blitz Bonus is not used with 2D10. They are mutually exclusive.

Steve, I beleive that here is a confusion here.

In WiF FE, the Blitz bonus is not mutually exclusive with the 2d10 CRT

It is even more different, it is that the Blitz bonus are indeed included in the 2d10 CRT, just look at the 2d10 CRT table, you'll see them all on the right side, adapted for 2d10 play. They are all there, the bonus for attacking ARM / MECH, the penalty for defending ARM / MECH, the bonus for PARA dropping, the penalty for factories). You'll even see that these modifiers are all preceeded by the "==>" sign, indicating that they are optionals.

Moreover, historicaly those bonuses were first designed for 2d10 CRT, and were then converted for 1d10 CRT play in RAW7aug04, and made an optional rule by themselves.

So you can play 1d10 CRT with or without Blitz bonuses, and you can play 2d10 CRT with or without blitz bonuses, but the more common combination are 1d10 CRT without the Blitz bonuses (the early WiF FE design indeed) and 2d10 CRT with the blitz bonuses (the normal WiF FE 2d10 design).


Yes. I was under the impression that the Blitz Bonus rules were mandatory with the 2D10. That is how I have set up the optional rule 2D10. To disable them for 2D10 seems completely wrong to me.

Yes, to me too, playing the 2d10 without the blitz bonuses would seem completely wrong to me too, but I understand it (because of the "==>" smbol indicating an optional bonus / penalty) that they are indeed optional.

Not a big deal as long as they are included, but saying a WiF player that Blitz bonuses are mutualy exclusive with the 2d10 CRT has chances of him getting angry after you . Should made be clear then that the 2d10 CRT includes the Blitz modifiers.

Sure, what should not be allowed, would be to add the blitz modifiers of the blitz modifiers option to the blitz modifiers of the 2d10 CRT, this would be adding them twice.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 417
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 2:17:37 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
On the printed 2D10 combat table there is a little detail symbol  =>   for almost all the blitz and other modifiers. It says 'optional' to use these modifiers. Because of that I think that the Blitz option as shown choosable in the select options screen, should have to be checked in order to have these modifiers in effect even when checking the 2D10 table.

Lars.


(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 418
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 2:40:38 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

On the printed 2D10 combat table there is a little detail symbol  =>   for almost all the blitz and other modifiers. It says 'optional' to use these modifiers. Because of that I think that the Blitz option as shown choosable in the select options screen, should have to be checked in order to have these modifiers in effect even when checking the 2D10 table.

Lars.

I believe it was in the discussion of one of the AI Strategic plans where this was all thrashed out in detail.

I have the Blitz Bonus as an optional rule that only applies when the 1D10 table is used. The equivalent 'rules' are mandatory when the 2D10 table is used.

This was decided months ago and I have little interest in reviewing old decisions.

Unless, something critical comes to light, the Optional Rules Definitions are set as is.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 419
RE: optional rules - 9/21/2007 3:26:46 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
No problem, I just want to avoid confusion among the players.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 420
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