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RE: A question for old grognards - 10/7/2007 3:33:28 AM

cptracks

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Started with Blitzkrieg, then AH Russian Campaign, Napoleon at Waterloo. Anzio was just awesome at the time (degrading units!) but a pain to set up. How little I knew what was coming. Midway was fun. Discovered SPI when I started University in Montreal via Strategy 1 and Blitzkrieg Module System which I loved. Played many many SPI games, A Mighty Fortress, Invasion America just about every east front game they made to name a few. Capper was Dunnegan's Sov-Nato monster. I still remember cursing at all the Sov flak counters. Some Napys and PanzerBlitz but never got into the close range stuff. VG Vietnam I really wish was on a computer now. They did a Bulge game I really liked. Played Wacht am Rheim, we never finished. AH 3rd Reich was a blast for a group of us as was War and Peace and Wooden Ships and Iron Men. Finished several of each. Then we discovered Star Fleet Battles, which I probably played the longest. A friend put together an Apple program to do the chart work and impulses. Loved GDW's monsters, never got to play them against opponents. Really like WIF, eagerly awaiting matrix's effort. There was a 2 map civil war game that I played, forget the name and publisher, but it was awesome for the time. Alas all gone now.

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Post #: 31

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/8/2007 3:40:16 AM

pzgndr

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I took my 30-year grognard passion for Third Reich and made an adaptation for Stategic Command 2. When Strategic Command 2 - Weapons and Warfare gets released in a couple of weeks, I'll be posting my updated campaign mod for SC2-WaW shortly thereafter. Complete with Axis and Allied AI scripting for challenging solo play.

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Post #: 32

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/8/2007 4:17:58 AM

105mm Howitzer

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The great moment came when I discovered I could tape my maps onto metal sheets, and stick them to the wall with MacTac. Then it was a simple trick to use magnets to keep counters on. Air War: wasn't big, but took forever to figure out how those #@$%&&* jet counters moved. ( it was worse if I had a newbie playing)

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Post #: 33

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/8/2007 4:42:44 AM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 105mm Howitzer

The great moment came when I discovered I could tape my maps onto metal sheets, and stick them to the wall with MacTac. Then it was a simple trick to use magnets to keep counters on.

never mind, I remember them now. I don�t think I have seen them in decades and forgot all about them

< Message edited by Sarge -- 10/8/2007 6:14:05 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/8/2007 9:14:38 AM

MrBoats

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105,

Just curious: how many counters could you stack horizontally with the magnets? I wanted so badly to hang maps on the walls and use the magnet system, but I think I couldn't afford thousands of magnets nor the metal sheets for backing. It was a great idea, though. I think an LCD projector and pc setup might come close with an ADC-style board game adaptation.

Did you use the magnetis tape or the counter-holders?

Thanks

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Post #: 35

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/8/2007 5:42:15 PM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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Back to the orignal question...

No, but I saw one played to completion in a single evening. The game in question was SPI's Highway to the Reich. The respective teams setup their counters (which took a couple of hours), and then commenced with play. On turn one, British paratroopers drifted down on top of the German HQ and it was destroyed. The rules, which apparently didn't take such a possibility into account, indicated that this denoted a victory for the Allies. Their was considerable bickering as to the true meaning of the clause, but careful review of the text eventually gave way to the groups' consensus that the game was in fact over.

I never really bit on the "monster game" concept, although I owned several, including the mutha of all monsters, SPI's Desert War. I never even set that one up. I think that I sold it at a garage sale. I began to rebel against the sixty-page rule books and thousands of pieces in the early seventies, at least in part because of the popularity of somewhat smaller, turn-based tactical games as they evolved through PanzerBlitz, Tobruk, Squalid Leader and, finally, ASL. The games became more and more complex and, purportedly, addressed the shortcomings of their predecessors, but I never bought it. You just can't introduce unlimited deliberation into a tactical environment and call it "realistic."

I continue to play hex-based board wargames, btw. My favorite is AH's Anzio, I also enjoy area-movement games like Breakout Normandy and Victory in the Pacific. And apart from an occasional campaign game of Anzio, the overarching imperartive in my choice of games is that they be capable of being played in three-six hours, face-to-face. Anything longer than that, and matters tend to morph into something rather different from what I had intended when the contest began, and the experience sorta slips over a cliff.

Pooh on those big old games!

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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Post #: 36

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 12:32:08 AM

Titanwarrior89

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The Civil War I played alot and finished alot of the games. Even finished Pacific war, DAK and numerous playing of The 3rd Reich. I still have all these. Pacific war and DAK were my favorites.

Oh yea, This hollowed ground and the gamers civilwar brigade series. Them to

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

I started AH's The Longest Day,Third Reich and the 1st ASL campaign (can't remember its name), VG's Vietnam, Victory Games' Pacific War, Enemy at the Gates and DAK

You never played VG's "The Civil War"? Cripes, you missed the best one of the bunch.

< Message edited by Titanwarrior89 -- 10/9/2007 12:37:13 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 1:44:43 AM

Neilster

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I missed the Golden Age of board wargaming, although I have the 5th edition of World in Flames and have played it quite a bit. I used to have one (can't remember the name, it was part of some series where all the maps were of northern France and the Low Countries and operations in 1940 and 1944/45 could be played) that was set in late 1944 (Arnhem-ish sort of period from memory). By the time my friend and I set it up we were exhausted, so we just looked at the set-up for a while, marvelling at how thin the German line looked in comparison to the Allied strength. My girlfriend started to give me grief after a couple of days of the map being out so I packed the game up and it was never played. Dunno what happened to that sucker either.

Anyway, I was wondering...what was the biggest, most ludicrously complicated wargame/wargame system ever published? Europa looks pretty mega from what I've seen.

It's computer wargaming for me, these days for the usual reasons. I'm loving helping to develop Matrix World in Flames.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 38

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 4:24:31 AM

simovitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

Anyway, I was wondering...what was the biggest, most ludicrously complicated wargame/wargame system ever published? Europa looks pretty mega from what I've seen.

That's gotta be Campaign for North Africa. From "Boardgamegeek":

quote:

The game is detailed to a degree no other game has come close to. If using the full rules you keep track of every individual plane and pilot in the three year campaign. Each counter on the board representing a ground unit is composed of many units which are kept track of on logs. Supplies are kept track of and dispersed in a very detailed manner....

...Playing time with 10 players is listed at 1200 hours.

We owned it but I don't think we ever got past filling out all the supply logs.

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Post #: 39

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 6:31:23 AM

Sarge

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quote:

The game is detailed to a degree no other game has come close to. If using the full rules you keep track of every individual plane and pilot in the three year campaign. Each counter on the board representing a ground unit is composed of many units which are kept track of on logs. Supplies are kept track of and dispersed in a very detailed manner....

...Playing time with 10 players is listed at 1200 hours.

A.K.A The Desert Hermit

That was a sick game, I seen it set up once��..sick I tell you

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Post #: 40

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 9:56:38 AM

MrBoats

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Of the monsters I attempted to play, Pacific War was the most complicated. The Europoa series was hard enough, but PW was nearly impossible solo, largely because of the secret plotting requirement. I tried anyway, but didn't have the time to commit to it. I knew a guy who tried Campaign for North Africa and wound up in Bellevue with PTSD.

PoE, I don't know how or why I missed Anzio. I nearly bought it several times, but at that time the Italian campaign did not interest me that much. I'm tempted to buy it now to give it a shot. How "big" was it? I seem to recall it could be played on a kitchen table, but I may be wrong. I'll look it up to find out.

The posts in this thread have given me the board gaming bug again. I now have a spare room large enough to accomodate a game or two, and I may just have to hit EBay and see what's available

! I'll have to quarantine the cats, but they'll get over it.

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Post #: 41

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 3:25:59 PM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBoats

The posts in this thread have given me the board gaming bug again. I now have a spare room large enough to accomodate a game or two, and I may just have to hit EBay and see what's available ! I'll have to quarantine the cats, but they'll get over it.

Take a look at GMT games, I have been playing hex counter for a long time and find their rule set, art and game play ranks as well as any AH titles.
The old AH fetch a huge premium on Ebay and to tell you the truth you�ll have just as much fun with GMT current titles as some of the old AH minus nostalgia of course .

Check out Ardennes �44

With a couple of simple house rule changes can be adapted to solo.

**GMT games **

I picked up Ardennes 44 for song around $25/w shipping on Ebay

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Post #: 42

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 3:34:44 PM

Sarge

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Ardennes 44 Wargamer review

Ardennes 44 *WG

Board Game Geek review

Ardennes 44 *BGG

< Message edited by Sarge -- 10/9/2007 3:37:58 PM >

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Post #: 43

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 3:44:47 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Ardennes 44 Wargamer review

Ardennes 44 *WG

Board Game Geek review

Ardennes 44 *BGG

I can't believe I missed my chance for this game. Simovitch clued me in to it a while back (his brother is the designer) and GMT still had a few left in stock at the time. I procrastinated (as always) and now they are out of stock!!

As for the most complex I would have to agre with simovitch it is hands down Campaign for North Africa. Europa, while covering a huge extent of terrain was actually a fairly simple mechanics sysytem. The worst part was keeping track of each corps stacks armor and antitank values.

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Post #: 44

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 4:40:20 PM

Neilster

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Anyone else like to describe any other biggies? The Longest Day for example. I'm living vicariously here.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 45

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 4:53:39 PM

Bill Durrant

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ASL's Red Barricades camapaign game. Hundreds of counters fighting over one rubble hex

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Post #: 46

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 5:01:24 PM

HansBolter

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As I mentioned above, the Longest Day (aka...The Longest game) used a relatively simple mechanics system adopted from the Air Assault on Crete/Malta game. It was essentially battalion level with a few companies. Air power was realitively abstracted and was heavily used to inderdict the movement of German forces across France on their way to the battlefield.

The mechanics system allowed for defensive fire with artillery by the non-phasing player taking place after the phasing players move. The defensive fire was selective as in individual units could be targeted, which meant that all the really powerful units were wiped off the map pretty quickly once your opponent got a significant amount of artillery to the front. The selective defensive fire was one aspect we didn't like much and we altered it with house rules. The Tiger battalions were, unfortunately, broken down into companies (which is actually the way they operated in Normandy) and since companies are far weaker than battalions, they fell prey to the selective defensive fire quckly. The best units in the counter mix were the panther and mech infantry battalions of the Germans.

The greatest part of the game was the unit symbology. They used the symbology in use by Germany during the war.

Once the front solidified, the artillery became the decisive arm of the battle and once the Allies bulit up enough of it, the game became a steady attrition grind as the German scrambled to maintain the front with an ever eroding army.

One funny side note is that the map included a named location for just about every village of 4 houses or more and almost every other hex on the map had a Dot village named St. Germain. Germain must have been the patron saint of Normandy. We used to regularly joke about how confucing the combat reports back to higher HQs must have been with every last unit reporting the "capture" of St. Germain.

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RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 5:14:31 PM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBoats

PoE, I don't know how or why I missed Anzio. I nearly bought it several times, but at that time the Italian campaign did not interest me that much. I'm tempted to buy it now to give it a shot. How "big" was it? I seem to recall it could be played on a kitchen table, but I may be wrong. I'll look it up to find out.

Anzio is played on a 14x44 inch map like that for AH's Afrika Korps. And while it has two full sheets of counters, something less than five percent of the total may be in play at any one time. The mix includes step-reduction pieces and units that are committed and then withdrawn over the course of the campaign game. While folks can play the "whole enchilada" (Sept/II '43 through April/IV '45), there are numerous scenarios available, the most popular of which is likely one that depicts the fighting from the invasion of the Peninsula through the end of 1943.

What I've always found interesting about the game is the extent to which each and every contest plays out differently, this despite the fighting taking place on so narrow a front. OOB for both sides is variable, although more so for the Axis. The Allies have a choice as to where to conduct their initial and subsequent invasions. The game can also be very frustrating for both players. The terrain is a nightmare for the Allies as they try and advance, and the Germans are constantly forced to eschew offensive action because they normally possess only a handful of (mostly elite) units.

If you're interested in Anzio or Tome Oleson's update of the game to be titled Italia, you can read more about it here:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@187.b524d8eUnwZ.2@.ee6ccad/1361

Thanks for asking!!!

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 5:44:30 PM

Prince of Eckm�hl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

Anyway, I was wondering...what was the biggest, most ludicrously complicated wargame/wargame system ever published? Europa looks pretty mega from what I've seen.

That's gotta be Campaign for North Africa. From "Boardgamegeek":

quote:

The game is detailed to a degree no other game has come close to. If using the full rules you keep track of every individual plane and pilot in the three year campaign. Each counter on the board representing a ground unit is composed of many units which are kept track of on logs. Supplies are kept track of and dispersed in a very detailed manner....

...Playing time with 10 players is listed at 1200 hours.

We owned it but I don't think we ever got past filling out all the supply logs.

Ahh, I got the name wrong!!! That was indeed the mutha of all monstas!

I remember laying the maps out on the floor at one point and looking over the rules. The logistics end of the game and the book-keeping entailed looked to be rather more than daunting. There were some cool little units in the game, as I recall, such as Italian bicyclists and a group called The Sahara Detachment that guarded an Oasis which for all the world appeared unlikely to be visited by anyone other than the LRDG. I put everything back in the box and never opened it again. A monumental commitment of time and paper by SPI, it's hard not to look back on it as a waste of both. Obviously, I had more money than time back then.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

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Post #: 49

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/9/2007 8:02:33 PM

MrBoats

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Sarge,

Thanks! I enjoy gaming the Bulge and that looks like a great game. I've got the maps included in the Army's "green book" volume -- the author's name escapes me, but I think it was Charles MacDonald -- and I'd like to give boths sides a try again. My uncle was a machine gunner in the 28th Division and was pulled out of the line on Dec. 15th for trench foot. He probably would have been K - or MIA had he have been in a foxhole the next morning.

PoE,

Thanks for the description and the link. It's the kind of game I'm looking for. Anzio is exactly the size, too. My older brother wants us to go to Italy to visit some of the battlefields, especially the San Pietro area. I'd like to see Monte Cassino. My mind is still not made up about the necessity of the Italian Campaign, but it did tie down a few German divisions that might have been sent to Normandy.

-----------
There were a couple of 19th Century monsters by SPI: Terrible Swift Sword and (I think I have the title right) Wellington's Victory. TSS cost $16 when it came out and I was sorely tempted, but broke! I believe it was a company or regimental level Gettysburg game with several big maps. I saw it for sale in NYC a few years ago for $300.

As for "North Africa," I recall that the players had to calculte water and gasoline evaporation rates every day. Anyone who finished that game deserved to get a PhD. Anyone who even attempted it deserved a medal.

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Post #: 50

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/10/2007 1:52:19 AM

Bloodybucket28th

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L2's "Bitter Woods" is worthy of a look in the Bulge game genre. Components are top nothch and it's very playable.

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Post #: 51

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/10/2007 2:01:11 AM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBoats

Sarge,

Thanks! I enjoy gaming the Bulge and that looks like a great game. I've got the maps included in the Army's "green book" volume -- the author's name escapes me, but I think it was Charles MacDonald -- and I'd like to give boths sides a try again. My uncle was a machine gunner in the 28th Division and was pulled out of the line on Dec. 15th for trench foot. He probably would have been K - or MIA had he have been in a foxhole the next morning.

Clarke & Smith ?

Ether way GMT is the way to go if your looking to get back into Hex and Counter.

< Message edited by Sarge -- 8/21/2016 12:36:32 AM >

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Post #: 52

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/10/2007 2:04:42 AM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBloodyBucket

L2's "Bitter Woods" is worthy of a look in the Bulge game genre. Components are top nothch and it's very playable.

Get the 4th edition, ( art upgrade)

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Post #: 53

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/10/2007 5:42:48 AM

Neilster

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quote:

PS: Digging the Family history , Grandfather made it out with the 502nd but was in such bad heath in Jan he was removed from a line unit.

The Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502?

I thought they only fought on the Eastern Front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/502nd_heavy_tank_battalion_(Germany)

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 54

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/10/2007 11:49:44 AM

MrBoats

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Sarge,

502nd P.I.R.?

It was criminal that the front-line troops were the last to receive adequate clothing during the winter of '44-'45. I understand that thousands of rear-area men were walking around in the new winter boots while the front-line men like my uncle were suffering mightily in leather boots that did not stand up to the cold and damp conditions. I believe that all soldiers ought to have first-rate equipment, but the guys in the foxholes should have been taken care of first.

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Post #: 55

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/10/2007 1:52:03 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBoats

Sarge,

Thanks! I enjoy gaming the Bulge and that looks like a great game. I've got the maps included in the Army's "green book" volume -- the author's name escapes me, but I think it was Charles MacDonald -- and I'd like to give boths sides a try again. My uncle was a machine gunner in the 28th Division and was pulled out of the line on Dec. 15th for trench foot. He probably would have been K - or MIA had he have been in a foxhole the next morning.

Clarke & Smith ?

Ether way GMT is the way to go if your looking to get back into Hex and Counter.

PS: Digging the Family history , Grandfather made it out with the 502nd but was in such bad heath in Jan he was removed from a line unit.

After an almost 5 year hiatus from regular board wargaming I recently started playing one night a week with some friends from a local city. We are playing The Gamers Operational Cmbat Series game of Tunisia and I am enjoying it thoroughly. I highly recommend looking into The Gamers as a source for current publication wargames. Their publisher is Multi Man Publishing and their site cna be found here:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/index1.php

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Post #: 56

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/10/2007 5:22:46 PM

simovitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Ardennes 44 Wargamer review

Ardennes 44 *WG

Board Game Geek review

Ardennes 44 *BGG

Played this with my brother during our 'Band of Gamers' tour in Malmedy Belgium. now that was an Ardennes experience.

I can try to scrounge up a copy for someone if they email me.

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Post #: 57

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/10/2007 9:34:45 PM

HansBolter

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While I'm working on getting Simovitch to hook me up with a copy of his brother's game Ardennes '44 I will go ahead and mention one of my favorite old regimental level Bulge games, SPI's quad game Battlles for the Ardennes. For anyone not familiar with SPIs old "quad" game concept. It is actually 4 separate games all based on the same system with each game being sized to fit the Magazine game format (SPI used to publish a wargamimgh magazine caled Straegy & Tactics (now published by Decision Games) that included a game in each edition.

The Ardennes was divided into 4 quadrants representing separate games or scenarios. The 4 games could be combined, and were combined to be republished as the campaign game. The interesting thing was that the sout west quadrant (where little happended in the Bulge depicted a 1940 scenario of Guderian crossing the Meuse at Sedan. The combined quad game had campaigns and countermixes for both the 1940 and 1944 campaigns through the Ardennes. The game had fairly simplified mechanics, utilizing SPI tried and true FPF (Final Protective Fire) artillery mechanics. The game syatem flowed nicely and played quickly and was highly solitaire freindly.

I left my maps taped down to a board too long and they got ruined. I still have the rules and countermixes and keep meaning to pick up a copy of the republished version being sold by Decision Games to get another copy of the maps.

I have another old regimental level Bulge game called Dark December by OSG that was very similar to the SPI game.

To step to another level of detail, there is SPI's classic battalion level Bulge game Wacht am Rhein (my copy is pretty dog eared). It has been republished, and apparently redesigned, by Decision Games, but I have heard not so great things from a friend who bought their version.

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Post #: 58

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/10/2007 9:55:04 PM

Yogi the Great

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Yep, use to get the SPI magazine with game.

Also own Dark December - actually a pretty good game.

Biggest problems I had with all the board games was of course finding a place to set it up and leave it and most of all, had to do most of my playing solitare due to lack of opponenents and a work/time schedule that made it near impossible to finish games with anyone.

I can still recall the excitement or ordering a game, getting it in the mail, and spending time setting it up and appreciating the map, counters, rules etc. Even though it was hard to "surprise" yourself with unexpected strategies playing solitare, it was still plenty enjoyable to play. And if you played as "unbiased" as you could, you would find that the other sides last move, left them more vulnerable then you expected when you made the move, and then you could launch a great counter.

I still think for some of us, faithful computer reproductions of many of the classic board war games, would be must buys for "old grognards" like me.

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Post #: 59

RE: A question for old grognards - 10/10/2007 10:30:38 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Biggest problems I had with all the board games was of course finding a place to set it up and leave it and most of all, had to do most of my playing solitare due to lack of opponenents and a work/time schedule that made it near impossible to finish games with anyone.

Now we come to the prime element of my career as a true grognard that I have been saving until some one mentioned the age old problem of how to keep a game going that takes more than one evening to play.

One my best wargame buddy who hosted our games got married and had little game destroying munchkins suddenly running around his house it became a real challenge for us as the spare bedroom that had been dedicated to gaming became a nursery. We were forced to play our games on the dining room table which preclude any game lasting more than one session. Since we were Third Reich fanatics at the time and anyone who has ever played it knows well that a campaign game can last for several gaming sessions we had to find a solution.

I am in the design business (architecture) and have a brother in the cabinet making business. I dreamed up the solution in the form of a wargame storage cabinet, not for storing the boxed games, but for storing the ongoing game maps. Basically it is just a common box, base cabinet with 1x1 ledgers on the inside walls spaced about 4" on center vertically. This allowed for boards of 5/8" or 3/4" plywood to slide into the cabinet with ongoing game boards/maps on them. The cabinet held about 8-10 boards. Even very large games could be set up with their maps spanning several storage boards.

This allowed us to get a game started, play for a night and then store it away in the cabinet for the next weeks session. The next week we cleared the dining room table, pulled the storage boards out and arranged them on the table to continue the game. Rinse and repeat each week. It even allowed for multiple ongoing games. Many gamers who saw that cabinet said I should have copywrited the design and marketed it. Several went out to cabinet shops and had their own version bulit.

To this day, I still consider that cabinet one of the true crowning achievements of my wargaming efforts.

(in reply to Yogi the Great)

Post #: 60