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U-boats ... - 10/13/2007 6:29:35 PM

Irish Guards

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Is it ever gonna be possible for these vaunted German U-boated to .. ummm .. say maybe .. ah ..
Go under the surface ... like as in submerge or evade .. besides the fact of when they go under for the obvious reasons ...???

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/15/2007 5:24:57 AM

Dion

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I think one counter of U-boats equals one fleet of U-boats, and I think they are cosidered unspot-able unless they attack or an enemy unit enters their hex, so in a sense they submerge automatically. The more tactics that are added would change the scale and ease of play to much.

< Message edited by Dion -- 10/15/2007 5:39:47 AM >

(in reply to Irish Guards)

Post #: 2

RE: U-boats ... - 10/15/2007 6:26:50 AM

SMK-at-work

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And what do they do if they don't attack??

The u-boat rules are nonsense.

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/15/2007 6:39:29 AM

Dion

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I believe the U-boats would just be spotted until they move to a new hex.

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/15/2007 11:19:37 AM

davetheroad

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I think the u-boat rules work reasonably well in simulating a battle between rival research/production strategies. In a PBEM I am playing as axis a low priority U-boat strategy has resulted in the allies concentrating their navies on supporting amphibious operations. In the mirror match the high u-boat production, I keep sinking them, he keeps building new ones, results in allied naval activity concentrated on u-boat warfare. The allied submarine has performed valuable service as a spotter and resulted in the destruction of german surface units by lurking on the transit routes from germany. My opponent must have found this irritating as he built a high tech destroyer, fortunately for me when he finally found my sub he left it with 2 strength points so I could rebuild and even better left his destroyer in range of a high tech carrier and strat bomber, bye bye destroyer.

Dave

(in reply to Dion)

Post #: 5

RE: U-boats ... - 10/15/2007 4:08:32 PM

Vypuero

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I built the DD by accident

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/15/2007 7:38:18 PM

davetheroad

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Accident!!!!!

Only I build stuff by accident and load units on ships by mistake cos the buttons are too close together.

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/15/2007 9:36:30 PM

Irish Guards

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Well ... I have had my subs surrounded in 1 turn by attacking allied fleets ... Probably my own fault ... but ...

I guess what I would really like to know ... Is anyone building subs or fleet consistently with the Axis .. and tech ???? 1 or 2 naval labs for the Axis ...
I am finding there is not much naval war in many games .....

(in reply to davetheroad)

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/15/2007 10:08:37 PM

JudgeDredd

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I don't bother building subs...too useless and too expensive.

I wonder if it could be tweaked that there is a "probability of finding" check PRIOR to surface ships being able to attack subs.

Anytime I employ sub tactics, I attack a convoy and BANG! the unit is surrounded and destroyed. They are supremely useless for their cost.

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 12:32:21 AM

Bossy573

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From: Buffalo, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irish Guards
I guess what I would really like to know ... Is anyone building subs or fleet consistently with the Axis .. and tech ???? 1 or 2 naval labs for the Axis ...

The German navy is worthless and an effective submarine campaign in the Atlantic is impossible. I don't even bother and usually bring the sub in the shipping lanes home at the beginning of the game. I use it to shield the invasion of Oslo, sink the Russian Battleship at the beginning of Barbarossa and maybe make a suicide run at the Allies on D-Day. Other than that, as has been pointed out previously, the return on investment stinks.
The Italian navy is somewhat more useful and can give the Allies problems in the Med. but will ultimately meet its doom as well.

So the short answer is no. A viable Axis naval strategy in CEAW is non-existent.

< Message edited by Bossy573 -- 10/16/2007 12:38:11 AM >

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 12:46:29 AM

firepowerjohan

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For future patches we might adjust the prices slightly, perhaps making Sub abit cheaper to build. A Sub campaign can be pulled off but often it depends on what Allies do. If Allies spend alot on air and put many ships in the Medieterranean to defat Italy in Africa a good counter can be to counter this with air battles and sub action since UK cannot afford as much warfare as Axis can in the mid game before Russia join. It can in fact make UK weak and prevent them from affording much research since all their money goes to buying destroyers or repairing air units.

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 10/16/2007 12:51:02 AM >

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(in reply to Bossy573)

Post #: 11

RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 1:42:01 AM

Irish Guards

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OK .. I kinda agree .. but since the convoy system is in effect from Sept 1, 1939 ..... It comes down to initiative ..
In order for subs to be offensive as they are intended .. I have to believe there should be some suprise action .. I mean I have seen a BB or DD or CV run into a sub that was hidden and do enormous damage before the subs even get into play ....
All I am really saying is that with combined arms .. and WWII being difficult to encorporate a balance between Land .. Air and Naval ... This is a huge theatre of the game that rarely gets the attention needed .. Means the overall flavor is lacking in some way ...

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 2:29:38 AM

firepowerjohan

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No problem, we will just reduce the Sub price so you can have more of them. It also mean you can scout a larger part o the Atlantic when having more Subs and you can also easier cover your attacks by having hidden subs.

Why hidden subs?
The naval combat works opposite of other, the attacker strikes first so if you run into a hidden sub it will fire its attack on the ship first and then ship fires back.

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 2:48:16 AM

Irish Guards

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Give the Ger subs + 1 ..
And since I dont build em .. I dunno ... they take 4 turns now ..???
IG

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Post #: 14

RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 3:43:33 AM

YohanTM2

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Sweet Jesus, a completely coherent analysis from IDG!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irish Guards

OK .. I kinda agree .. but since the convoy system is in effect from Sept 1, 1939 ..... It comes down to initiative ..
In order for subs to be offensive as they are intended .. I have to believe there should be some suprise action .. I mean I have seen a BB or DD or CV run into a sub that was hidden and do enormous damage before the subs even get into play ....
All I am really saying is that with combined arms .. and WWII being difficult to encorporate a balance between Land .. Air and Naval ... This is a huge theatre of the game that rarely gets the attention needed .. Means the overall flavor is lacking in some way ...
IG

(in reply to Irish Guards)

Post #: 15

RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 4:03:44 AM

Fred98

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The real problem is that when the subs attack they cannot move away in the same turn they attack.

As a result, the allied convoy system means the subs are destroyed the next turn.

Ergo the German player gets no return on investment.

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 4:39:16 AM

SeaMonkey

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Talk about Deja Vu..... bet you can't guess what forum this exact exchange of ideas happened in.... about two years ago, ...hmmm maybe more like four?

Look Johann, get your preorder in for SC WaW and then you'll get some ideas...on the fast track...where this game needs to go.

Sure, all won't apply, SC is not CEaW, exactly....just a permutation.

Now at least with this naval emphasis we are getting along in the right direction.

Think PTO!

< Message edited by SeaMonkey -- 10/16/2007 4:44:50 AM >

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Post #: 17

RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 5:03:32 AM

SMK-at-work

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SC2 is only marginally different - once a sub is located it gets hammered. teh difference is that subs attack convoy routes instead of convoys themselves, so you don't know where on the route the sub is.

both ideas are wrong.

(in reply to SeaMonkey)

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 5:14:23 AM

SeaMonkey

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SMK...did you not observe the WaW after the SC2 acronym?

You have played WaW?

Once again another flawed jump to conclusions.

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Post #: 19

RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 5:33:21 AM

SMK-at-work

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did I mention WaW?� No - I was referring to SC2 - WaW isnt' available to�the general public yet, so I wasn't talking abouty it.

That's why I said SC2 and not SC WAW.

however that said AFAIK from the WAW forum there's no great difference in how subs will work - except there's now "destroyers" as a ship type - cruisers and battleships will ahve little effect vs subs whereas destroyers will be the new wonder weapon able to both bombard and kill subs.....& subs will leave a "trace" where they last attacked a convoy route....

Have I missed anything?

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 10/16/2007 5:39:16 AM >

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 7:01:27 AM

SeaMonkey

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Well no! And then again maybe yes! Do you know about the new "crash dive" sequence in which a successful dive allows the sub to steal away...baby...steal away(sorry about the LZ).

My understanding that the well known "corralling" technique will not work if a sub makes an emergency crash dive and silently evades the surface fleet to live another day.

Of course those new destroyers maybe aptly successful in uncovering the subs' ruse, but only the destroyers have the capability.

It will take quite a few of those babies to corral a sub in the open ocean.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

Post #: 21

RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 12:34:23 PM

firepowerjohan

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Thre is one very important aspect about the subs, you have to pick a location where it is likley not many Allied ships will reach you on one turn near edges of map. If you have 4-5 subs and say strike a convoy in a distant place there is often only 1-2 ships that can reach you and you can attack with some Subs and keep some subs hidden next to them so when the Allies comes in they will be running into� surprise attack. Sure, you get some losses but since attacker fires first you will get much whack out of Subs.

For example
Sub strength 10 hidden
Allied DD strenth 10

DD comes in, move on Sub hex gets surprise attacked. Sub fires, damage the DD down to 6. DD will then fire back with strenth 6 and also reduced efficiency so having many subs and keep them protecting each other is beneficial.

There are 3 edges on map, NW corner, W edge and South edge westy of Africa. Due to this fact, Allies are spread out on 3 locations while you can use all your Subs in one large pack, use it to your adfvantage.

If you ar using 2 subs between New Foundland and England in the centre of the map making 2 attacks on Convoy you are saking for trouble because often 3-5 Allied ships witll be within reach. Subs are tricky to learn and with a reduced cost for them and some experience you can make them pay off

Their max damage is 13 and they Cost 70 but also rememebr that they will infclit on enemy as well so it is 13+cost for enemy to repair if you are that unlucky your Sub gets sunk right away.

If Allies are in Mediterranean with their ships, even easier to find locations for your Sub packs where sometimes Allies cannot even counter with risk of being sunk themselves.

If Subs will cost 60 in next patch then a 13 payoff per turn is quite much though

Also considering making BB and Strat.Bomber -5 cheaper

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 10/16/2007 12:49:20 PM >

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 12:38:56 PM

IainMcNeil

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Giving subs a % chance to move 1 hex randomly before an attack might be quite nice but does require code changes and could introduce bugs.

The simple way to tweak it is to make subs much tougher to kill but do less damage to represent their evasion techniques. This can be by increasing their survivrability or reducing attack values against them, and reducing their naval attack value. This way it becomes a war of attrition rather than dead/not dead which often seems to be the result at the moment.

It might require price tweaking to keep it balanced, probably making subs more expensive.

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 1:21:55 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irish Guards

Well ... I have had my subs surrounded in 1 turn by attacking allied fleets ... Probably my own fault ... but ...
I guess what I would really like to know ... Is anyone building subs or fleet consistently with the Axis .. and tech ???? 1 or 2 naval labs for the Axis ...
I am finding there is not much naval war in many games .....
IG

And to think I was lambasted for suggesting early on that there is not much to be gained by pursuing the naval war in this game. Nice to see that others are finally coming around to my point of view.

(in reply to Irish Guards)

Post #: 24

RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 4:02:56 PM

Irish Guards

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Sweet Jesus, a completely coherent analysis from IDG!

What a riot ... I try not to be to clear .. Don't want to give to much away in the scope or scheme .. You know what I mean ...

Swine brethren ... lol ...

Thx for the WiF Optional rules ... wow .. there's tons ...
I think these guys should have stuck to WiF .. Original Edition .. Then broad and firm ....
And be nice or nay lasagna for the family this weekend ...

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 25

RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 4:12:13 PM

Irish Guards

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Hey FPJ ... I think you are forgeting the fact that when the DD or BB or CV finds a hidden sub ..
Shock is the first part of the combat .. or am I wrong in this assumption ....

So the incoming swine allied 1939 ASW UK BB's run into the vaunted German U-boaten which are submerged ... they suprise the U-boat ..

So as U-boats .. have no shock ... why I have no idea .. Nay my game ... There eff % is allready hit before they get off a spread of photon torps ..
Am I missing something here ...
Oh Dear .. That's my outloud voice again ..

(in reply to Irish Guards)

Post #: 26

RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 4:33:40 PM

firepowerjohan

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When you run into a insible Sub, the surprise attack means the sub will be the attacker and only attacker will use shock value.

Running some tests with it, I find that if a sub attacks a ship then most likely the ship will suffer more while if the ship attacks then the sub will likely suffer more as should be. Of course in the example I have compared units of roughly same combat values.

NORMAL COMBAT:
In normal combat, attacker first use its shock attack value to reduce defender effectiveness, Then defender fires first so the attacker is losing both strength and efficiency until they can fire back. So in fact if you have a high combat value and are defending then your taken casualty will be affected by it also sine you will hurt the attacker before he can fire back. Highly realistic. The shock phase means that for example a armour unit with high shock value can stun the defender making it more likely to retreat but also weakening the defenders fire upon the attacker which means the attacker will have more firepower on phase 3 of the combat

phase 1 : Attacker shock upon defender
phase 2 : defender fire
phase 3 : attacker fire

Now the difference to this is that

COMBAT BETWEEN 2 NAVAL UNITS:
phase 1 : attacker fire
phase 2 : defender fire

So in pure sea battles attacking pays off and even a equal odds means the attacker has an advantage

COMBAT BETWEEN 2 AIR STRIKING UNITS:
With air striking means Air units or Carrier because they will always fight each other in the air without any terrain bonuses.

Here
Phase 1 : Both attacker and defender fire simultaneously

So here attacker and defender does not mean anything to the outcome and neither attacker or defender has any distinct advantage.

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 10/16/2007 10:46:27 PM >

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 4:53:06 PM

Irish Guards

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Exactly .. Subs have 0 shock .. even when they suprise a Naval unit or even a convoy ...
So a sub suprises a CV .. and the CV is nay shocked ..

When convoys are hit they are still 100 % effeciency ... And damage is equal if attacking the convoy as opposed to suprising ...
When this comes to a naval engagement ... say a DD runs into a hidden sub its the same as if you are just attacking a DD .. Of course the sub should attack first .. almost always .. Especially in the early war years .. Well this is usually a 4:8 attack or some such .. And this is before any labs come into play ...

I actually think the best use of subs is to delay some of the larger convoys 250 PP or so ..
you might loose a sub or 2 over a few turns .. but .. If you can delay the Russians at critical times then it's worthwhile ..

Which actually brings me to the conclusion that this is the intention ..

If thats the case then I believe that if there are only 3 locations on the board that convoys stem from .. nay sure .. Don't play Allies often ....
Increase the locations of where the convoys are generated .. but .. If there is a murmansk convoy on route to Russia .. which is about where Greenland should be ..

And this convoy is delayed .. Another convoy from the same location will not be generated from the start location until that convoy reaches Greenland .. Ahh Russia ..

It will still allow another Russian convoy to be generated .. just not from the same starting point .... Means multiple convoys are still on board ....
IG

(in reply to firepowerjohan)

Post #: 28

RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 10:25:54 PM

SeaMonkey

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OK Johann, for further thought into the next edition, think about incorporating a "pass-through" feature.

The idea being to allow for naval opponents to actually miss each other in a common sea hex.� This will introduce, "The Search" feature.

With the large areas represented by CEaW sea hexes it was not uncommon for foes to absolutely not be aware of each other in the same zone...like two ships passing in the night.

Emphasis with successful searching then can be upgraded with the advent of tech levels and degraded with weather conditions to�continue the cat and mouse approach that should be inherent into naval actions.

Just like the present model, unless you have overwhelming strength in proximity, first to be found...first to drown.

Enhancing the nerve wracking feature of imminent discovery increases the in game excitement, the anticipation of combat, the unknown of the conclusion of your chosen path (luck factor)weighing down what you thought was supreme confidence.

< Message edited by SeaMonkey -- 10/16/2007 10:31:36 PM >

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RE: U-boats ... - 10/16/2007 11:10:13 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey

OK Johann, for further thought into the next edition, think about incorporating a "pass-through" feature.

The idea being to allow for naval opponents to actually miss each other in a common sea hex.� This will introduce, "The Search" feature.

With the large areas represented by CEaW sea hexes it was not uncommon for foes to absolutely not be aware of each other in the same zone...like two ships passing in the night.

Emphasis with successful searching then can be upgraded with the advent of tech levels and degraded with weather conditions to�continue the cat and mouse approach that should be inherent into naval actions.

Just like the present model, unless you have overwhelming strength in proximity, first to be found...first to drown.

Enhancing the nerve wracking feature of imminent discovery increases the in game excitement, the anticipation of combat, the unknown of the conclusion of your chosen path (luck factor)weighing down what you thought was supreme confidence.

and while you're at it think about giving subs a shock attack...after all a surprise submarine attack (99.99% of all submarine attacks) should be ALL about shock. The shock value should be greater than the attack value, far, far greater.

(in reply to SeaMonkey)

Post #: 30