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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell

 
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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/25/2007 7:55:30 PM   
von Shagmeister


Posts: 1273
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Dromahane, Ireland
Status: offline 		I can't remember where I read it. I've just had a quick look through a few books I have to hand and couldn't find it. I'll have a proper look and let you know.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/25/2007 8:03:51 PM   
von Shagmeister


Posts: 1273
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: Dromahane, Ireland
Status: offline 		One "source" I do remember is a documentary on the combined bomber offensive on the BBC a number of years ago. A war time RAF medical officer was being interviewed reference the effect of the losses on the morale of the crews and he said on some of the raids the losses were near to the 10% considered unsustainable.

Only anecdotal I know, but I'm certain I've read it as well, it's a figure that sticks in my mind.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/25/2007 8:55:16 PM   
Rebel Yell


Posts: 470
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: The Woodlands, TX USA
Status: offline 		Interesting.  I've never read anything that lead me to believe losses over 4% would have been sustainable for very long.  As fochinell pointed out, the British sustained 5% averages for a few months, but it stretched them to their limit.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/25/2007 10:05:52 PM   
von Shagmeister


Posts: 1273
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From: Dromahane, Ireland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebel Yell

Interesting.  I've never read anything that lead me to believe losses over 4% would have been sustainable for very long.  As fochinell pointed out, the British sustained 5% averages for a few months, but it stretched them to their limit.


You wouldn't have thought that losses running at 5% practically every mission would be sustainable let alone 10%. Of course the interval between missions makes a big difference. Personally I think that the morale of existing crews would fail long before the 10% figure was ever reached even if replacement crews and a/c were available to fill the gaps.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/25/2007 10:31:01 PM   
Rebel Yell


Posts: 470
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: The Woodlands, TX USA
Status: offline 		Exactly.  Replacement aircraft aside, morale is going to break with those kind of losses.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/25/2007 10:55:11 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		10% was still the goal to stay away from

one thing going for BC at the time, the crews didn't know they are getting hit at that high a loss rate

they would know there Squadron got hit HARD, or maybe one of the ones near them, but pretty much never knew the losses for the whole raid

one sample, which would be funny, if it was not so sad, the crews used to report on the use of Scarecrow flak/flares that the Germens were using to try and make them think bombers were exploding, and how at times, the Germens were really using a lot of Scarecrows on this or that mission (the Scarecrows were in fact, Bombers exploding)

also, remember the 10% number is also more based on being able to replace losses and still grow your forces

your chances of living though your mission count, is very poor, but the Command would still be able to fuction

also you must remember, the Air War was very deadly (the VIIIth AF lost more men then the U.S.Marines did in the 2nd WW)

if you ever get a chance, look up some of the pilot lists from BoB, and then see how many lived to the end of the War




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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/26/2007 4:01:28 PM   
fochinell

 

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Status: offline 		Interesting. I've never read anything that lead me to believe losses over 4% would have been sustainable for very long. As fochinell pointed out, the British sustained 5% averages for a few months, but it stretched them to their limit.

Actually, I was pointing out that BC lost 5% over the course of an entire year, 1942, which was - overall - their worst attrition rate IIRC. Also they sustained 5% for six months during the last quarter of '43 and the first quarter of '44. I'm with HS on this - it didn't manifest itself in an equal loss across all squadrons; sometimes squadrons would escape losses entirely, other times they could lose four, five or even six out of twenty (usually from the Stirling or Halifax squadrons rather than the Lancs). My great-uncle's crew in 61 Squadron went all the way though from the Peenemunde raid to BC's first attack on Schweinfurt at the end of February with little more than some flak damage to the aircraft skinning. OK, they didn't make it, but they were shot down on the last op of their tour after almost thirty ops right through this period, including five raids on Berlin.

The point about timing is completely correct - sustaining a couple of 7% losses in one month alongside a dozen missions with 2% loss rates brings the average down. Even 10% is sustainable if your aircrew replacement machine is large enough, but again HS's point about morale declining in those circumstances is precisely right.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/26/2007 4:19:13 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		And now a poor beginning to the New Year:

1944 January 1st. A: 25/1151 (14 aa), X: 4/76 (0 gd). Werner tells me these are all SAS losses, and I believe him.

ETO: 8th AF hit Emden-Jade PORT for 99% with no resistance. 1/278f 1/128b. 9th AF P-47D strike Norderham PORT for 46% in support, 3/160f to Flak and balloons.

MTO: Tactical fighter raids, nothing exciting.

BC: 1 Group attack Leipzig for what looks like a poor raid. LG's on target, but subsequent bombing is scattered throughout the city with some bombloads hitting open country and others hit Taucha. 11/291b due to Flak and NJG activity, with no NI kills despite 141 Squadron making several attacks on RTB's at Wesendorf AF.

1944 January 2nd. A: 46/1357 (21 aa), X: 6/217 (0 gd).

ETO: 8th AF to Minden-Weser PORT for 55%, 2/282f 11/126b 7e; all down to a cripple-hunt on the return leg. 9th AF fighter strike on Handels Hafen PORT for 31% goes in too early and does little to help cover the return leg. 1/156f. 2TAF Tiffie raid on St Gobain loses 5 Typhoons and 1 Spit IX for crappy bombing results. Hmm, time to post some people to Burma to encourage the rest.

MTO: Some strafing attacks on Lonate Pazzolo AF by the 12th AF's new P-47D's go badly - again, with most of the 14 P-47D's lost today going down to Re 2005's here. A P-38H strike on RR in the south turns into a long-distance strafing suicide run after the Stab units in southern Italy come up to fight, with the Lightnings wandering off towards Milan attempting to exhaust the ammo supply of all Werner's LAA gunners en route. I feel some postings to Guadalcanal coming on...

BC: 3 Group to Hamm for the last operation of the two Stirling squadrons in 3 Group before converting to Lanc III's, 1/242b for no NJG resistance. Bombing not too concentrated, with some misses, and the supporting LNSF Oboe raid going wide and losing several Mossies to flak damage - 3/12b. On the other hand, PR reveals Leipzing RR is at 99% after the 1 Group raid last night, so credit to the heavy bombloads of the leading wave of Lancasters for that.


< Message edited by fochinell -- 9/26/2007 4:20:48 PM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 9/28/2007 10:45:18 AM   
fochinell

 

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Status: offline 		The bad results for the Allies continue...

3rd January 1944. A: 72/2101 (24 aa), X: 14/700 (0 gd). 19 Spit IX, 10 B-25D, 21 B-17F.

MTO: 15th AF hit their secondary, Wien Winterhafen OILS for 99%. No resistance. 0/240f 2/96b 0e. A variety of the usual tactical stuff over Italy, including a MAC Mitchell raid on Breda AFAC which gets massacred by Flak, even at 16,000ft altitude. Gnnngh.

ETO: The 8th with 9th AF P-47 attacks in support go for Bussing NAG EFAC for 10% damage, and a cripple-hunt on the return leg - 0/299f 21/126b 13e. A 2TAF Typhoon raid on Antwerp RR misfires, with another terrible combat result for the escorting Spit IX's 18/31f 2/39b 3e.

BC: 4 Group to Hannover, slightly understrength due to auto-upgrade helpfully re-equipping a squadron with Lanc III's - 0/192b. 3 NI Mossies lost, with no NJG activity or kills, but Hamm RR PR'd at 99% to compensate.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/2/2007 12:35:10 PM   
fochinell

 

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Status: offline 		4th January 1944. A: 23/1073 (7 aa), X: 15/328 (10 gd). 6 P-39.

ETO: Some deep-penetration fighter sweeps by the 8th AF looking for a fight on the north German plain, but losses are minimal on both sides.

MTO: Various tactical fighter strikes, limited combat.

BC: 5 Group to Halle for what looks like a reasonable raid, 4/352b, with the LNSF to Berlin 1/23 mossies. No NJG activity.

5th January 1944. A: 10/840 (5 aa), X: 2/261 (0 gd).

ETO: Rest in the west.

MTO: The usual tactical fighter strikes, with a low-level Mossie FB.VI strike on AGIP Petrol at the head of the Adriatic adding some interest to the usual routine, 99% damage.

BC: 6 Group to Wilhelmsburg for a scattered raid, several bombloads hitting the adjacent Shell plant, 2/336b, NJG active but no NI claims, curses. On the other hand, a load of Ju88's do end up chasing the Wimpey RCMs and get lead away from the stream before it reaches the target - a rare illustration of my standard RCM tactic paying off. 205 Group demonstrate their desire for all-round court-martials by trying a deep penetration to Breslau-Oder PORT and missing it entirely.

6th January 1944. A: 29/1024 (14 aa), X: 15/124 (0 gd).

ETO: Another bad weather day.

MTO: 15th AF send two small forces to hit aviation sites in nothern Italy - Turin FIAT EFAC hit for 88% and Reggio AFAC for 43%. They get some kills - 0/190f 2/128b 11e, but the main fight was against a P-39 sweep which was sent up to distract the LW earlier and which it succeeds in doing, despite demonstrating the inferiority of the Airacobra to the 109 G6/R6 in the process. Various other tactical strikes, the worst of which was an A-20 strike on SIAP Vado Ligure on the Genoese coast by 12th AF A-20's; the strike is the usual ineffective effort by the mediums, but I foolishly used one of the BG's based in southern Italy, who then take casualties from Werner's Stab units in the south as they head back for home strung out and vulnerable. 14/64 Boston's lost, but Werner did lose an 18-kill ace, which cheers me up.

The Liberator D's have now been phased out of 205 Group in favour of the Halifax II's being released by 4 Group's steady conversion to the Halifax III. 1 Group has begun replacing it's Lanc I's with Lanc III's, and 627 Squadron in the LNSF have stood down to re-equip with the Mossie B.XVI. 2TAF have also finally begun equipping with the Spit XIV, while FC Spit Vb units have begun re-equipping with the P-51B.


< Message edited by fochinell -- 10/2/2007 12:38:11 PM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/2/2007 10:24:06 PM   
wernerpruckner


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quote:

but Werner did lose an 18-kill ace, which cheers me up.




it is sad to lose the leading ace in Italy

but there are 4 others with 15 kills

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/5/2007 3:53:59 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
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Status: offline 		My arse-kicking by Werner continues

7th January 1944. A: 90/1138 (52aa), X: 12/888 (0gd). Quite possiblyThe Worst Turn Of All Time. 60 Thunderbolts lost for nil practical results.

MTO: The usual tactical stuff, with minor losses in exchange for zero bombing impact.

ETO: Some long-range fighter raids and sweeps by the 9th and 8th AF's under the weather (about 8,000ft) get massacred, mostly due to the enormous quantity of Flak OKL have laid out across the northern German plain with Rail Flak on almost all the AF's between Holland and the Ems. The only redeeming feature of the day was a successful low-level 2 Group mossie FB strike on Altona OILS for 87% damage and 2/24 lost.

BC: 1 Group to Hannover, which has received an enormous number of Halifax bombloads for mediocre or minimal damage to the RR there. 8/291b for all bombloads plotted in the city area. NJG are active for once, and evade the intruders.

8th January 1944. A: 176/2979 (56aa), X: 95/1424 (0gd). Heavy losses for a decent bombing result for once. 15 Spit Vb, 10 Spit IX, 22 P-38L, 20 P-47D, 30 B-25D, 12 B-26B and 24 B-17F.

MTO: The medium bombers hit Italian industry - or try to; flak losses for zero bombing results again. Repeated AF strikes against Venegono and Oria by the tactical fighters fail miserably, catching no Axis fighters on the ground although a couple are damaged. One good result was the Baltimore strike on Viterbo RR, which saw 237 Sqn on their first op kill 6 Fw190 A8/R8 from one staffel on the return leg.

ETO: A deep-penetration by a small 8th AF force with maximum escort largely pays off; 32/590f 24/160b 69e and DB Genshagen EFAC 69%, with the combat taking place south of Bremen on the return. The tactical raids supporting the return leg do less well, with the 9th AF Marauders missing Rothensee-Elbe OILS 11/315f 12/64b 20e while the insanely-at-limit-of-Spitfire-range 2TAF Mitchell raid to the OILR outside Bremen takes heavy losses on the return leg, although mostly after the bingo fuel bug kicks in and the bombers are left unescorted when they get to Rotterdam on the return. The Spits do OK, with 610 Sqn on the first Spit XIV op getting 2 Fw190's and one damaged for no losses, but the timing was excellent to get LW fighters going blue and RTBing from the 8th AF fight and yet the Spits lack the agression needed for better results - 16/412f 24/72b 36e. Needless to say, despite getting to the target untouched, the bombers do zilch damage. To brighten things up, another low-level 2 Group mossie FB strike hits DEA-Heide OILR for 78% and 0/24 lost.

BC: 3 Group hit Harburg Rhenania OILR, the bigest one outside Hamburg 4/240 lost and 167 bombloads hitting the target area. No NJG activity but a record 5 NI's go down to Flak. Hannover RR PR'd at 73% damage and Leipzig at 95%.


< Message edited by fochinell -- 10/5/2007 3:59:05 PM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/9/2007 1:38:53 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		More of the same boring stuff - constant Allied losses due to Flak and criple-hunting as a result of small-scale tactical operations.

9th January 1944. A: 11/658 (5aa), X: 1/43 (1gd). ETO shut down by weather.

MTO: 15th AF attack Milan Alfa EFAC and Pirelli Tyre RUBBER, 0/292f 1/128b 0e. Practicalkly nil bombing results, only Pirelli RUBBER suffering 22% damage. Various useless tactical strikes on RR.

10th January 1944. A: 5/334 (2aa), X: 0/0.

MTO: Some tactical fighter strikes, the best being a Mossie FB raid on Nero Montero STEEL for 68%.

ETO: A VSITE raid by the 2TAF Hurris, whose only purpose is to flog themselves to death on the VSITES for nil returns.

BC: 4 Group to Cologne Eifeltor, 3/240b and 0/24 LNSF to the same target. The last two squadrons of Halifax II's in 4 Group then re-equip with the Halifax III.

11th January 1944. A: 42/645 (17aa), X: 1/271 (0gd).

MTO: More of the usual tactical raids, with 328 squadron being massacred on a sweep to Oria AF and losing all 18 P-39's involved. That's why they have P-39's.

ETO: A couple of tactical raids on VSITEs and RR miss their primaries, with only a flak-damaged straggler or two being caught.

BC: Weather cancelled.

12th January 1944. A: 24/717 (11aa), X: 1/242 (0gd).

MTO: The usual tactical stuff, with the routine P-39 sweep to the AF's north of Milan actually claiming an air-to-air kill by some miracle.

ETO: 5 Group to Wuppertal do the first LGO raid in while, but at least the three lead H2S squadrons seem to be on target. No NJG activity.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 10/9/2007 1:42:05 PM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/10/2007 7:12:39 PM   
fochinell

 

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Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		Werner,

I'm getting bounces from your mail server, in case you're wondering what's happened to the recent turn.


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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/10/2007 9:09:21 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Gavin,

an alternate email adress has been send to you....
can you look onto the time/date stamps of your last few mails ( they seem to be wrong ) 

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/11/2007 12:21:13 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		an you look onto the time/date stamps of your last few mails ( they seem to be wrong )

Test mailings to my own address seem to have the correct timings in the SMTP envelope...


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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/11/2007 12:30:36 PM   
Gargantou


Posts: 205
Joined: 4/28/2007
Status: offline 		Just gotta say, awsome AAR guys, just got BTR and BoB in the mail finally, once I finish my first campaigns against AI, I'm hoping to find some people here that are willing to do some PBEM campaigns.

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/11/2007 3:15:14 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		13th January 1944. A: 30/1440 (22aa), X: 2/83 (0gd).

MTO: 15th AF attack aviation sites in northern Italy, repeating the plan from 9th January; good bombing results for once, although one target was a secondary - Breda AFAC 99%, Brescia-Breda ARM 99%. Nil resistance - 0/192f 0/192b 0e. The number of active BG's in the 15th means some more interesting large-scale attacks will be contemplated when the weather clears enough. Other than that, the usual tactical raids on RR and Milanese AF's, although the timing is poor and the coverage would have missed any interceptors RTBing even if Werner's crews hadn't chickened out.

ETO: Some short-range tactical strikes on Belgian targets dodging the cloud-base.

BC: 6 Group to Hohenbudberg for what looks like a decent raid, with over 75% of the bombloads in the city area. 6 Group are handicapped by only having two H2S units to lead raids, unlike the other groups in BC, so that's not a bad result in terms of concentration on target. Weather desynchonises the Oboe mossie supporters, who attack after the 6 Group raid is completed, for a small scattering of 500lb bombs on target. No NJG activity, with the usual couple of NI losses to Flak.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 10/11/2007 3:20:17 PM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/12/2007 1:47:54 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
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Status: offline 		13th January 1944. A: 141/2483 (23aa), X: 117/2331 (0gd). It looks like my second 13th January turn due to a snafu of some kind, probably me sending Werner two 12th January turns although I can't confirm that. Oh well, this turn is too good to lose - 10 P-38L, 24 P-47D, 22 P-51B, 10 B-26B, 48 B-17F.

MTO: Even the endless tactical raids are suspended due to the weather.

ETO: The 8th are back, two forces of 160 B-17F's going for Erla AFAC and Mittel-Deutsche EFAC. Initial inbound escort by two groups of 9th AF Thunderbolts and two FC sqns of recently-re-quipped with P-51B's to allow me to concentrate the 8th fighter units on the return leg which Werner seems to be favouring at the moment. A skirmish or two south of Hannover is the sum total of the combat on the inbound leg, while OKL opt for a major interception of the inbound return-leg escorts. Meanwhile the bombers do nil damage to Mittel-Deutsche while the Erla force splits up to attack T/O's in the Leipzig area. Fortunately, OKL haven't opted to intercept this force en masse as this is a recipe for disaster in the face of significant resistance. Meanwhile some P-47's of the final wave of escorts come off second-best at the Dutch coast and return home after a hammering by some Fw190's, but at least half of them get through and all my P-51 and P-38's seem to reach the bombers on the return leg and conduct a good defence until the bingo fuel bug cuts in. As a result most of my B-17 losses occur recrossing the Dutch coast on the way home. 46/760f 48/320b 105e. The highlight for me was the 356th and 56th FG's hitting II/JG 301 for five 109G6/R6's each in their first, consecutive attacks.

The 9th AF support sees the Marauders hit Nordhafen RUBBER for zero results, but the inbound P-47 escorts do a lot of useful work covering the 8th's exit leg over Holland despite what looks like an LGO raid, 17/232f 10/64b 46e. The 2TAF Mitchells come in too far south and a fraction too late to see any serious fighting but hit Randerath CHEM for 51% and score 2/294f 3/72b 5e. The Tiffies hit a Belgian CHEM site without opposition.

BC: Three attacks this turn; 1 Group to Dresden for a concentrated attack and over 80% of the bombloads in the city area 1/292b, while 205 Group do pennace for their recent crap performance by an ultra-deep penetration raid to Berlin and manage to get all their bombloads in the city area, largely due to its size, 5/172b. This is immediately followed up by the LNSF, with 24 Mossie B.IV's and the first op by 12 Mossie B.XVI's to add their disruption to Werner's late-night party at the RLM, 0/36b. PR of some recent BC targets is disappointing, Harburg Rhenania OIL at 61% but Hohenbudberg 44%, Halle and Cologne/Eifeltor both at 27%.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 10/12/2007 1:55:02 PM >

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/16/2007 6:45:51 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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quote:

MTO: Even the endless tactical raids are suspended due to the weather.


this worries me a bit........how much of the game is fairly tedious, repetitive "minor" stuff like this or recce?

Will there be automated methods of doing these if, for example, you want to concentrate on the daylight strategic bombing of industry?

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/16/2007 3:18:02 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

quote:

MTO: Even the endless tactical raids are suspended due to the weather.


this worries me a bit........how much of the game is fairly tedious, repetitive "minor" stuff like this or recce?

Will there be automated methods of doing these if, for example, you want to concentrate on the daylight strategic bombing of industry?


you can assign any of the commands to have the staff plot the raids for you, you can set the target type, and the range, how much damage (if target type has so and so, don't attack) and how much weather






Attachment (1)

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/16/2007 3:19:59 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		in that shot, I have told the staff for the 12th, to attack AFs, with in 300 miles, only if the cloud cover is under 30%, with units that have a morale of at least 45, and over if the damage is under 65%

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/16/2007 3:20:58 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		here is a day where that command is sending out some raids, it has been moving it's units around while the weather has been above my settings






Attachment (1)

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/16/2007 3:22:19 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		and the details of one of the bombing raids






Attachment (1)

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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/16/2007 3:33:18 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		the raid is a little higher then I would send, but it works

there are pros and cons to using the staff, most people don't like it, but I also think most people forget to do the settings

the biggest hassle though is timeing, do you want to try and get everything just right, or is your major raid, going to be going in, just to the side of a AI planned raid, that is going to draw fighters to you, instead of where you were hopeing them to go

but, in the long run, you don't want to control everything, the AI can and will control what you want it to




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RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/16/2007 5:09:22 PM   
fochinell

 

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Status: offline 		14th January 1944. A: 6/367 (3aa), X: 0/12 (0gd).

Short-range tac strikes in the MTO, bad weather grounds everybody in the ETO.

15th January 1944. A: 129/3640 (49aa), X: 99/1611 (0gd). Losses include 6 Mustang III, 15 Spit Vb, 6 Spit IX, 26 P-47D, 3 P-51B, 2 P-38L, 12 B-25D, 10 A-20C, 8 B-26B, 20 B-17G and 4 B-24J as well as 36 Fw190A on the German side. Relatively small attritional losses, but much more in my favour than it has been recently.

MTO: The 15th AF attack Austrian industry with two forces of 96 B-25J's for the first time, with maximum escort. Steyr Daimler EFAC 0% but Libenau STEEL 100%. The interceptors scramble late, and it looks like OKL expected the bombing forces to go further north to Vienna, as only a couple of units chase cripples and the supporting two P-38H attacks see almost no combat. The Spit IX escorts on a MAC Baltimore raid to Zara kills 3 IAR 81's while covering the egress route, but otherwise the 15th are almost entirely unopposed - 0/288f 4/191b 1e. Elsewhere the A-20's and B-25's on tactical raids take heavy losses from Flak; the MAC raid to SIAP Vado Ligure OILS suffering particularly badly with 11/48b going down from 16,000 ft without a LW fighter in sight. That really needs to be toned down.

ETO: The 8th AF are back in action at last, with three forces of 100 B-17G from the 1st Bomb Division hitting aviation targets around Brunswick. The inbound leg is quiet, and while the Nimo and Bussing NAG EFAC's escape significant damage, Luther AFAC gets hit for 100%, which is more like it. OKL scramble the interceptors to take on the fighter escorts, but while the inbound P-47's take significant losses without fighting back, it looks like the supporting 9th AF Marauder raid to Bremen overwhelms the attackers in the end, allowing the 8th bombers avoid substantial combat until reaching the Dutch coast on the return leg. The 8th (with FC and 9th AF escorts to cover the initial leg) manage 18/728f 20/300b 35e, while the 9th hits Vacuum-Oslebhausen OILR for 85% and score 19/231f 8/64b 76e. The following 2TAF Mitchell raid to Kaiserstuhl STEEL does a useful 92% damage but the escorts don't do as well, the Spit Vb's in particular suffering after exiting the Dutch coast - 18/356f 1/65b 12e. Overall a good day's work, with low B-17 losses (under 10% against LW opposition) and some useful bombing damage offsetting the high P-47 losses, which after all is what they're there for. Seeing the tactical raids soaking up Werner's efforts was particularly satisfying. Aside from that, a Tiffie raid hits Belgian industry without response.

BC: 3 Group attack Rothensee OILS, and manage to get 168/240 bombloads in the target area, which should do some damage. The LNSF attack Berlin with 12 Mossie B.IV and 12 B.XVI for no losses, but 4 Mossie NF.II's go down to Flak while the NJG remain in hiding.



< Message edited by fochinell -- 10/16/2007 5:13:45 PM >

(in reply to fochinell)
Post #: 266
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/17/2007 6:12:34 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		16th January 1944. A: 76/1679 (24aa), X: 62/960 (0gd). Losses include 23 Bf109, 14 Spit IX, 8 P-39L, 7 B-25D, 27 B-24J. A good attrional exchange, although more by luck than judgement on my part and on too small a scale to be significant by itself.

MTO: The 15th head for Austria again with two forces of about 96 bombers each with maximum escort. The LW assemble their fighters west of Gyor before attacking after the primaries are reached - Steyr EFAC socked in, while Schwechat Heinkel AFAC gets blasted for 88%, and take some Liberators down despite a good fight from the Lightnings. The Steyr force heads north parallel to the returning Schwechat force, and score some RTB's before missing their secondary and ineffectively bombing T/o's on the way back. Overall 8/288f 27/192b 67e. The usual supporting P-38H attacks do little, although one of them hits Schwechat AFAC as a secondary target to add insult to injury about 20 mins after the Liberators. Otherwise the usual routine of medium bomber attacks on Italian industrial targets by the tactical forces - points of interest being an unopposed and ineffective A-20 raid to industry near Fiume, and another B-25D strike on SIAP Vado Ligure being massacred by Flak again.

ETO: A couple of Tiffie raids and a P-47D RR strike go in between the cloud cover. Suprisingly enough, one of the Typhoon strikes against General Motors ARM attracts a major response, and the Spit IXs actually put up a fight, scoring 11/44f 0/47b 10e while the Typhoons miss the primary and do little to Zeebrugge RR, the secondary.

BC: An accurate 4 Group raid on Duisburg Ruhrort PORT is somewhat undermined by turning into another LGO raid, although 96 bombloads hit the target area with some reasonably accurate Mossie B.IV support - 0/12b. No NJG activity.



< Message edited by fochinell -- 10/17/2007 6:17:47 PM >

(in reply to fochinell)
Post #: 267
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/18/2007 3:41:57 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		17th January 1944. A: 34/1689 (19aa), X: 29/413 (6gd). 7 P-38H, 15 P-47D. And excellent small-scale turn for me, with some useful bombing damage on an important aviation industry target, and a successful night for the NI's on a deep-penetration BC raid.

MTO: For the third time in three days, the 15th AF send a twin-force raid group into Austria. After three previous attempts, this time Steyr Daimler Puch EFAC is finally hit for 99% , while Bad Voslau AFAC escapes damage. Some LW interceptors from the Viennese AF's come up as the supporting 12th AF P-38H's come in, and get diverted by them while the bombers fly home almost unmolested. There's a brief combat over Yugoslavia on the return with the only LW unit to chase that far, but the escorts deal with them as they break off to return home. 1/285f 2/188b 14e. The usual tactical raids, except this time the focus is on fighter strikes to the AF's north of Milan for the first time in a while, which have been PR'd as hosting a couple of Gruppen. 15/96f for the two 12th AF P-47D Groups, but the following MAC P-40 and P-39 strikes escorted by Spit IX's seem to avoid casualties, although they manage to miss the RTBing LW as well. You're actually supposed to attack the enemy, guys . I'm guessing most of the LW ground casualties happen here, as the Thunderbolts manage some strafing attacks on Venegono AF after bombing Oria AF.

ETO: Some light tactical activity - Tiffies hit Air Liquide CHEM as a T/O after missing General Motors ARM yet again, while the 9th AF send a P-47 Group to strike Rouen RR. No opposition.

BC: 5 Group do a deep penetration to Frankfurt-Oder after a long approach out over the North Sea and down the neck of Schleswig-Holstein north of Hamburg. Roll on those extra way-points to rationalise the route-planning and allow me to route forces away from Flak nests without this sort of humungeous circuitous routing. The bombing is adequate, with 187 bombloads in the target area and 4/352b lost. 11 Mossie B.IV and 24 B.XVI's attack Berlin to rudely interrupt Werner's partying at the RLM, but the first B.XVI goes down to Flak over Magdeburg on the return leg. The NJG put in a rare appearance, with some chasing the Wimpey RCM's out past Lubeck into the Baltic as they depart the bomber stream west of Berlin which always entertains me . The NI's are also out in force to greet them , and claim 10 (in reality 7 plus one crash) for 1 Mossie NF.XII lost to Flak on the return.

(in reply to fochinell)
Post #: 268
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/18/2007 8:46:42 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		Ok dumb qestion i recently tryed to start a PBEM game... my Axis opponent created the turn send it to me so i made planning and stuff but before that i was to chose Allied ID (wich i did) i planed all my missions ended the turn, i saved it afterward and sended it back and my opponent can't do anything with it:( what seams to be the problem??? how a proper file handling look's like??:)

Thanks

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(in reply to fochinell)
Post #: 269
RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 10/18/2007 9:00:37 PM   
fochinell

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline 		my Axis opponent created the turn send it to me so i made planning and stuff but before that i was to chose Allied ID (wich i did) i planed all my missions ended the turn, i saved it afterward and sended it back and my opponent can't do anything with it

No idea - provided you use the turn first generated by the Axis player it should be OK after you select an ID, although I remember having to copy the file btruser.dat to the game directory between computers to resolve something like this once.


(in reply to Przemcio231)
Post #: 270
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