German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too strong, use carefully!!!

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too strong, use carefully!!!

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German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too strong... - 11/22/2007 3:08:28 PM

17poundr

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I don't know if you have noticed, but the ww2 era German apc's or more likely known as the SDKFZ 251 Hanomag, (and it's later slightly smaller and more agile with better armament), version are defenately too strong fighting vehicles in the game...

They, have an amazing survivability, that is almost up there with the panzers!

I would use them causiously, perhaps putting only half of what was historically there, and substituting the missing moving power with lightly armoured trucks, or just trucks...

I do not know why the sdkfz are so great? And, probably the allied apc's are too good also, I looked at the US basic apc and it had pretty humble combat stat's, I was suprised at the stat's of the British Bren Carrier, I would have thought that they would have been a bit more puny... Perhaps something for the next patch designers to see about???

Also, If I were a designer, I would put much more SAM's than the OOB tells you to do... Why? Well, do you remember that patch for the TOAW-ACOW version called 'makes SAM's work', or something to that effect? Well, I loaded it, and the effect it had on the AI, was that my troop movements seemed much safer from enemy interdiction... that's good, but I think that the TOAW III, although I'm shure has improved it's SAM capability, it still seems odd, that a Patriot battery cannot shoot down more than circa five or so enemy aircraft when a raid is done onto a hex within it's reach, containing tens, if not close to a hundred enemy jet's!!!

Also the 'Russian patriot', which is something like the SA-300 (please forgive my faulty memory on this one), has the same problem... If I'm right, then the Patriot-SA300 class SAM's of today, would decimate an enemy force of tens of targets... This has never been seen on any of my games... And I do not belive that playing against the PC makes any difference in this... This seems to be a problem that percists through the otherwize very good toaw game engine, I wonder why???

Anyway, just thought I would drop in my thoughts, that have matured from a lot of time gaming on toaw.

Anyway, it's still a great game... Best historical strat-operational game for the pc so far imho!

For those with the skill, please give us some great new scenario's for toaw III ! (:

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RE: German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too st... - 11/22/2007 4:29:32 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 17poundr

I would use them causiously, perhaps putting only half of what was historically there, and substituting the missing moving power with lightly armoured trucks, or just trucks...

To be honest it's probably not necessary to substitute them with anything because of the way transport works in TOAW. Just put in as many as are needed to get the desired movement rate and leave it at that.

If you assign more than that, the game will just take them as ordinary combat vehicles. It's true that it can be hard to knock out armoured equipment when it stands on the defensive, and this is especially noticeable in games with a low attrition divider when soft targets die like flies. But I don't think there's any specific bug with regard to these peices of equipment.

quote:

I do not know why the sdkfz are so great? And, probably the allied apc's are too good also, I looked at the US basic apc and it had pretty humble combat stat's, I was suprised at the stat's of the British Bren Carrier,

...Maybe I'm missing something, but all these vehicles have the same characteristics in TOAW.

quote:

it still seems odd, that a Patriot battery cannot shoot down more than circa five or so enemy aircraft when a raid is done onto a hex within it's reach, containing tens, if not close to a hundred enemy jet's!!!

Isn't the Patriot system notoriously hit-and-miss?

quote:

If I'm right, then the Patriot-SA300 class SAM's of today, would decimate an enemy force of tens of targets...

In theory. Have these weapons systems been successful in action?

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RE: German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too st... - 11/23/2007 6:24:54 AM

17poundr

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I think that the reason the NATO countries had a five km limit that they wouldnt go under, suggested that some of the more new Soviet made tech, was indeed much more dangerous than the SA-3 for example...

And, apparently, the Russians did give the Serbians some of their more modern SAM tech to down the F-117, but this is speculation...

Unfortunately, (well, fortunately actually, but you know what I mean), there hasnt been a chanche to test the S-300, and SA-13 sams, but the Finns purchased mobile SA-300BUK sams, and the research they did (as Finland has a mix of NATO and Russian equipment for it's armed forces, along with some home made stuff), and they reconed the SA-13/SA-300buk were about as good as the famous Patriots... And, yes the Patriot is pretty darn good! I mean the friendly fire incident when a patriot shot down a British Tornado back in 03 showed that it was at least superior to anythign the Iraqi's had, and that was all non new Soviet era stuff, with a fiew Rolands thrown in for good measure, which the Tornado's were able to 'duck', this I have seen on British TV!

I have noticed that the SAM's have an effect if you fly your units carefully over your own SAMs, the enemy is less likely to attack, say a helibourne op, or even attack helicopters ect... Also, if You position lot's of SAMs in an area, then ground movement of your troops there is pretty safe from interdiciton... So, I'm not saying that the SAM's arent there.

I was just wondering wether they are true to the power of the really modern SAM's, which havent really been tested in war, but are pretty killer I belive... Could be wrong, but I dont think so... Remember how the little Stinger changed the face of the Soviet helicopter losses in Afganistan? And that was defenately not such a dangerous SAM...

Anyway... I think that toaw III is good, and have enjoyed the improvements on it, dont get me wrong, but there is always room to improve on in any system... Maybe a good pbm, would be a nice change... I might have been playing the AI for too long... Nothing can beat a human opponent!

< Message edited by 17poundr -- 11/23/2007 6:26:10 AM >

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RE: German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too st... - 11/23/2007 10:34:29 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 17poundr

And, apparently, the Russians did give the Serbians some of their more modern SAM tech to down the F-117, but this is speculation...

My understanding was that the plane in question used exactly the same flight plan for every sortie. Eventually, the Serbs were able to predict where the plane was going to be and down it using fairly old equipment.

quote:

I mean the friendly fire incident when a patriot shot down a British Tornado back in 03 showed that it was at least superior to anythign the Iraqi's had,

This isn't saying much- and in any case, I imagine all the Iraqi equipment was poorly handled and in a state of disrepair.

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RE: German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too st... - 11/24/2007 7:46:02 AM

a white rabbit

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..would armoured flag, but 0 armour rating work for these "won't die" small very lightly armoured units ?

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RE: German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too st... - 11/24/2007 11:39:06 AM

vahauser

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I agree with golden delicious here. I'm not certain that this is truly a problem that needs to be "fixed". It might merely be an issue with the scenario itself in regards to the Attrition Divider.

Historically, however, the Germans never had enough halftracks to fully meet their TO/E needs. Only Panzer Lehr was fully equipped with halftracks, and that was only for a few months in the spring/summer of 1944 (until the division was decimated at St. Lo). Even the other elite German panzer/panzergrenadier divisions rarely had more than a battalion or two fully equipped with halftracks. By comparison, the Western Allies were far more lavishly equipped with halftracks in their armored formations than the Germans.

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RE: German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too st... - 11/26/2007 5:23:17 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

I agree with golden delicious here.� I'm not certain that this is truly a problem that needs to be "fixed".

It's not a gamebreaker- but I think something does need to be done. Either increase the ability of non-motorised equipment to fire when on the attack, or at least grant less benefit to armoured equipment for being entrenched.

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RE: German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too st... - 11/30/2007 12:02:52 PM

17poundr

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Hear, hear! I too belive that the Germans had an everlasting need for more of their otherwize exellent Sdkf 251, 'Hanomag's', wether in the regurlar infantry carrier, with one mg, to the various AA models, to even some rare anti tank models (at least the SS Wiking div, experimented on fixing a 50mm AT gun onto where we are used to see an mg with a metal plate protecting the gunner, only the mg was replaced with a 50mm cannon!!!

I do not know if this was later a factory made feature, as I know from reading about the SS Wiking division Finnish men, who remembered constructing this apparatus in the Division's workshops, but as they said, 'In the Spring of 42, there wasnt much to do about mobile anti tank power, so we improvised'... These were men who were nominally Panzergrenadiers, but used trucks for transport, and sometimes a 'Hanomag' sdkfz251, to 'ride into battle', if you will...

I too feel that the major question is to game designers, to watch out for giving a German mech formation too many of these objects...

Also, even if the nominal ammount of any vehicle was a given number, usually there were quite a fiew in the divisional workshops...

In one documentary it was stated that during ww2, of the circa 1600 Panzer V Tigers manufactured, there was never more than 60 in working order and facing the enemy, on all of the fronts combined!

But, I have noted that Tiger's are usually very prudently used in any scenario... And one sometimes get's the feeling that the one great benefit of the two 'great' allied tanks, the T-34, and Sherman, miss the point which made them great, that being the standardisation of parts, and the ability to fix up shot up tanks even by mobile workhops that were not waiting in the div hq...

Now I do not know if this is factured into the game or not, but sometimes in some scenario's, it seems that the great ammount of Shermans that were sometimes fixed during the night, doesnt seem to come out visibly in the game.

But perhaps this is worrying about micromanagement stuff, as we are usually playing with Divisional (sometimes broken down to Battalions, with the accompanying independent units, ranging from Brigades to Company's)...

So, please do not misundestand me, I still think that TOAW III, is a great game, these were just observations that have come to my mind...

Yours truly,

Mr Poundr.

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< Message edited by 17poundr -- 11/30/2007 12:04:02 PM >

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RE: German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too st... - 11/30/2007 6:07:37 PM

sPzAbt653

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In one documentary it was stated that during ww2, of the circa 1600 Panzer V Tigers manufactured, there was never more than 60 in working order and facing the enemy, on all of the fronts combined!

There were 1,800 Pz VI Tiger I's and II's made. At Kursk there were 135 Tigers, for Wacht Am Rhein there were 250. I would think that documentary wasn't reliable.

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RE: German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too st... - 11/30/2007 6:56:49 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

In one documentary it was stated that during ww2, of the circa 1600 Panzer V Tigers manufactured, there was never more than 60 in working order and facing the enemy, on all of the fronts combined!

There were 1,800 Pz VI Tiger I's and II's made. At Kursk there were 135 Tigers, for Wacht Am Rhein there were 250. I would think that documentary wasn't reliable.

If anything, it was probably taking a very limited view of "facing the enemy"; that is, actually engaged or about to be engaged as opposed to merely being on or near the frontline.

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RE: German ww2 skfz 251 'Hanomag', ect vehicles, too st... - 11/30/2007 8:52:53 PM

ColinWright

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With 'documentaries,' I tend to be as much grateful when they get something right as get upset when they get something wrong. The last just goes with the territory. Turn off the sound and watch the pictures -- and hope you don't notice they are from the wrong battle or even an old movie.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 11/30/2007 8:53:39 PM >

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