Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I wouldn't debate the Ki-100s maneuvering ability, but it should be noted that the P-47 was not really built for exceptional maneuvering. With its powerful engine, armor and guns it was more a flying tank.

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ORIGINAL: Big B

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ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I wouldn't debate the Ki-100s maneuvering ability, but it should be noted that the P-47 was not really built for exceptional maneuvering. With its powerful engine, armor and guns it was more a flying tank.

But if I'm not mistaken, at high altitude and/or high speed, the P-47 did have exceptional maneuverability. Air Force studies with captured FW-190's showed P-47D's to be able to out turn and out accelerate them easily (test pilots having to throttle back the P-47 to keep from over-running them in turns, etc).
At an air-show(years ago), I was taking to an old P-51 pilot, and I asked him to compare the P-51 with the P-47. He said it all really depended on altitude, up high the P-47 was supreme.

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ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I wouldn't debate the Ki-100s maneuvering ability, but it should be noted that the P-47 was not really built for exceptional maneuvering. With its powerful engine, armor and guns it was more a flying tank.

But if I'm not mistaken, at high altitude and/or high speed, the P-47 did have exceptional maneuverability. Air Force studies with captured FW-190's showed P-47D's to be able to out turn and out accelerate them easily (test pilots having to throttle back the P-47 to keep from over-running them in turns, etc).
At an air-show(years ago), I was taking to an old P-51 pilot, and I asked him to compare the P-51 with the P-47. He said it all really depended on altitude, up high the P-47 was supreme.

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

... However, my impression was always that the FW-190 was an outstanding all around fighter. There was almost no area of operation where it wasn't "very good" and a few where it was "exceptional". I don't tend to think of it as exceptionally maneuverable, like some Japanese AC, which was the comparison I was really going for.

I had forgotten, but I think you're right Big B. At altitude the P-47 became much more maneuverable. There really weren't an performance areas where it was a dog. However, as a pilot I think what I would appreciate most about the plane is the amount of battle damage it could take and still get you home. In that area it really was nearly unequaled for a fighter.

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ORIGINAL: Speedy

I'm pretty aux fais on German and US/Japanese aircraft but have never looked in immense depth at Soviet aircraft though. From wehat I have read though aren't both the Yak-3 and LA-7 (in particular) rated as being pretty darn good fighters. Any books/studies on their comparison with Mustang/Spitfire/190D equivalents?

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ORIGINAL: Big B

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ORIGINAL: Speedy

I'm pretty aux fais on German and US/Japanese aircraft but have never looked in immense depth at Soviet aircraft though. From wehat I have read though aren't both the Yak-3 and LA-7 (in particular) rated as being pretty darn good fighters. Any books/studies on their comparison with Mustang/Spitfire/190D equivalents?

The LA-7 was probably the best Soviet fighter of WWII. Later versions had a top speed of something like 425mph, and I believe it was the only soviet fighter to shoot down ME 262's. I understand it was very maneuverable and had good climb and acceleration too.
I don't believe it was as fast as contemporary P-51's and P-47's (active service models like the P-51H, seeing service in 1945 had a top speed of 480mph, while P-47M also serving in 1945 had a top speed of over 470mph, over 500mph on test models).

But the LA-7 was indeed a very good aircraft none the less.

It seems to me that the later model FW's, Bf-109's, Spitfire's, etc, were all very competitive...and a good pilot would do well in any of them, depending on the circumstances.

Fortess fortuna iuvat

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ORIGINAL: hawker

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ORIGINAL: Big B

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ORIGINAL: Speedy

I'm pretty aux fais on German and US/Japanese aircraft but have never looked in immense depth at Soviet aircraft though. From wehat I have read though aren't both the Yak-3 and LA-7 (in particular) rated as being pretty darn good fighters. Any books/studies on their comparison with Mustang/Spitfire/190D equivalents?

The LA-7 was probably the best Soviet fighter of WWII. Later versions had a top speed of something like 425mph, and I believe it was the only soviet fighter to shoot down ME 262's. I understand it was very maneuverable and had good climb and acceleration too.
I don't believe it was as fast as contemporary P-51's and P-47's (active service models like the P-51H, seeing service in 1945 had a top speed of 480mph, while P-47M also serving in 1945 had a top speed of over 470mph, over 500mph on test models).

But the LA-7 was indeed a very good aircraft none the less.

It seems to me that the later model FW's, Bf-109's, Spitfire's, etc, were all very competitive...and a good pilot would do well in any of them, depending on the circumstances.

Yes Big B,La-7 is only Soviet fighter that shoot down Me-262.
And in one incident two P-51 attacks La-7,they mistake it for Me-109. Both P-51 was shoot down in friendly fire with La-7.
That however cannot tell us that La-7 is better plane because in that particular case La-7 is flown by top notch Soviet pilot ace and in P-51 is probably flown by rookies.
These two types of fighters was the best,that is for sure.

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ORIGINAL: Ian R

Didn't they test the Ki-100 with high octane avgas after the war in the US, and it performed well at high altitude as well as low?

Fortess fortuna iuvat

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ORIGINAL: hawker

Absolutely agree with you Big B.

I must add that both F-86 and MiG-15 was very similar planes. Both are derived from German blueprints.

Even today everything is same. Who build the best fighter jets in a world?
Answer is simple,USA and Russia.
Pick any of their top notch fighters and in any case you will choose correctly.

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Cylon Raider or Colonial Viper?

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke

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ORIGINAL: Dixie
...
A6M (As it's the WitP this made it in, plus the Zero bonus

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ORIGINAL: Big B

I may not make any friends here - but I honestly don't think the last production Japanese fighters were up to the standards of their contemporary allied opponents.

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

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ORIGINAL: Big B

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ORIGINAL: Dixie
...
A6M (As it's the WitP this made it in, plus the Zero bonus

LOL! You know Dixie, I have read for years - I haven't ever been able to find a reference to the Zero Bonus in the history books?!

Bigger boys stole my sig

(in reply to Big B)

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ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

I may not make any friends here - but I honestly don't think the last production Japanese fighters were up to the standards of their contemporary allied opponents.

I actually thought that this was largely accepted. It's not that the Japanese late war fighters hadn't progressed. At least most of them started to provide basic armor. Yet, the US and Russian fighter designs had progressed dramatically. The German designs had as well, but their industry faltered. Early war US fighters suffered as much as anything from a complete lack of desire to build a dominant fighter. If you look at early USN and USAAF specs they are very basic and don't ask for much in terms of better technology. This was true through the entire 1930s which is why the US found itself lacking when the war hit. In truth the P-47, Hellcat and Corsair were all extremely good AC, built off similar principals that maybe are best summed but by bigger, stronger, faster; each a bit different, but all very tough to defeat.

It seems to me that the P-51 was the most redesigned with the idea of producing speed with less weight, hence the increased range. I don't know that the P-51 was a durable as its other contemporaries though.

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ORIGINAL: Dixie

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ORIGINAL: Big B

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ORIGINAL: Dixie
...
A6M (As it's the WitP this made it in, plus the Zero bonus

LOL! You know Dixie, I have read for years - I haven't ever been able to find a reference to the Zero Bonus in the history books?!

You haven't been reading the right books then

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
I am certainly no expert on AC performance and particularly not German AC, though I've picked up a bit here and there. However, my impression was always that the FW-190 was an outstanding all around fighter. There was almost no area of operation where it wasn't "very good" and a few where it was "exceptional". I don't tend to think of it as exceptionally maneuverable, like some Japanese AC, which was the comparison I was really going for.

I had forgotten, but I think you're right Big B. At altitude the P-47 became much more maneuverable. There really weren't an performance areas where it was a dog. However, as a pilot I think what I would appreciate most about the plane is the amount of battle damage it could take and still get you home. In that area it really was nearly unequaled for a fighter.

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Ya' got me there - I guess I need to expand my reading

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

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ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
I am certainly no expert on AC performance and particularly not German AC, though I've picked up a bit here and there. However, my impression was always that the FW-190 was an outstanding all around fighter. There was almost no area of operation where it wasn't "very good" and a few where it was "exceptional". I don't tend to think of it as exceptionally maneuverable, like some Japanese AC, which was the comparison I was really going for.

I had forgotten, but I think you're right Big B. At altitude the P-47 became much more maneuverable. There really weren't an performance areas where it was a dog. However, as a pilot I think what I would appreciate most about the plane is the amount of battle damage it could take and still get you home. In that area it really was nearly unequaled for a fighter.

The real problem with evaluating the Fw-190 is that it's really two different aircraft. The Fw-190 A with the radial engine was an excellent low and medium altitude performer, and many were specialized as ground support aircraft. The Fw-190 D with it's inline engine was an exceptional performer at high altitude, but not as effective at medium and low levels. Too many people seem to combine the capabilities of both into one "super plane"..., which it wasn't. Like most of the "good" fighters of WW II it had it's strong points and it's weak points.

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ORIGINAL: hawker

I know that this is probably chewed million times but this topic should be interesting.

Which is the best fighter in WW2?
Let jets stay aside in this.

For me:

1. Lavochkin La-7 (think the Yak Series was more importent, very good plane, but the model most people know from Flight sims, was a very small production run, and over all, I do not think shooting down a 262 should mean anything, all that is, is being in the right place, at the right time)
2. P-51 "Mustang" (outstanding plane, great range, great speed, could out run the bad guys, or with in reason, mix it up, once it was freed from the bombers, there was no place the LW could hide, there was a statement made about the engine, the A,I,II,A-36 and the tac Recon model, had the Allison, the B,C,D,K,H, III,IV had the Merlin, along with the recon model)
3. FW-190 (another outstanding plane, only trouble was the engine lost power as it got over 20K, if they would of been able to work out the metal troubles with the Turbo Charger on the C model, it would of been a monster (a 190 with the belly of a 51)
4. Ki-84 "Hayate" (more of a what could of been plane, if it had been built by the Allies, it may of been the best plane of the war, most JP pilots didn't know if they were going to be able to land, once they took off, major HT Trouble with the landing gear, after war testing, the test pilots were always worried about landing, plus it was the fuel that made the plane great, it was very good, one hassle with the statements about how good it was, is suppost to be a fight towards the end of the war, with one pliot taking on, take your pick, P-51s, F4Us or Hellcats (the story changes) also, the model does also, with the George and the Ki-100 being named, most of what is not told, is the same pilot (Muto most times, which if it was Muto, it wasn't a Frank or a 100 he was flying) was later killed by a 51 that he never seen, the Stang pilot even thought he had run into a rookie)
5. Me-109k (again, a great plane, getting pretty long in the tooth by mid 44, the K was more a lead slead, then a fighter, good climb, good speed, boom and zoom and it was great, just don't turn, the Spitfire may of "grown" better then the 109 did, but the Spit wasn't being made to do what the 109 had to, so not really fair to say it was better, the Spit didn't have to go again massed waves of B-17s, the F and very early G models were the best and even later, in the hands of a Experten, deadly, but airwar is not about single pilots, and just to nitpick, it should be the Bf 109)
6. Vickers supermarine Spitfire (another of the greats, only downfall was range, funny, it is always pointed out that it was a great turner, but since the LW didn't turn much, big deal, from WWI, the Germans felt that Roll Rate was more importent then Turn Rate was, really odd, it was a plane later on, that was set up for the roll it was to perform, so a Spit LF IX was not the same as the Spit HF IX, outstanding plane, but the Cane won the BoB, and the Stang won the Battle for the Reich)
7.P-38 "Lightning" (a odd one, outstanding plane, but depends on where it was, in the PTO, a monster, in the MED very good, in the ETO, poor, cold, fog and rain didn't agree with the plane, once all the changes were made, it was over shadowed by the Stang, when flown right, nothing could beat it, one yank, used to fly to GB AFs and put on a show, then land and start making bets with the Spit pilots saying he could out dogfight them in it, he never lost, but not many pilots could work the engines and controls like he could, in the PTO, it could control the fight, fight when it wanted to, disengage when it didn't, in the ETO, the speeds were closer)
8. F4U "Corsair" (a mother, one of my Favs, power, speed, could take lot of damage, and as long as the speed was kept up, could turn with Zero, and if in trouble could outdive anything the JP had (other then the Tony), little known fact, the F4u put the Hellcat out of production, and every CV had at least one Squadron of F4us on it by the time the war ended)
9. A6M2 "Zero" (don't need to say anything about this plane, for it's time, and for what it was designed for, it was outstanding, once the weaknesses were found, it was deadmeat, but, that shouldn't be held against it, as it wasn't suppost to be in front use for as long as it was, the replacements never worked out or were ready, a light weight plane, that was designed and flown, to hit and not be hit, it was outstanding, but once it was found out, it couldn't dive, or turn at high speed, so much for the edge it had)
Yak 3 (trouble is the Yak got to be looked at, as the series, more importent then the La, also, depends on which model, different planes, the 9 could be made into a ground attack, AS fighter, High (for them) Alt fighter, or a long range fighter (which made the 51 look like it had short legs, and it didn't use droptanks) the 3 was maybe the best pure dogfighter of the bunch, but was mid to low level, and the best model of the 3 may of only seen limited action, the 3 came off of the Yak 1 line, while the 9 came from the Yak 7 (which we hear very little about the 7, but a very importent model)
P-47 (again, another monster, great at high alt, and with later changes good at low level)

don't really think any of them can be said to really be better then the rest, all were good and all had areas that they were better then the others

we left off the Hellcat, another Outstanding plane, but it was replaced by the F4u because of the need for better climb and better top speed, the father away the JP planes were fought from the Fleet the better

from some statements that were made

got to remember, almost all of the US planes were pre war models (the Stang and Hellcat being 2nd Gen planes) the F4u, the P-47 and the P-38 were already being designed, worked on, when the war started

if the 47 had the range, the 51 wouldn't of been needed, but funny, as the war was ending, the 51 pilots were being crossed trained on the 47, because when they were sent to the PTO, they were going to be assigned the 47, the 51 didn't have the range needed (of course, almost a trick statement, as the P-47N was nothing like the C or D models)

That is the top nine,from best to worse

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ORIGINAL: Speedy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
I am certainly no expert on AC performance and particularly not German AC, though I've picked up a bit here and there. However, my impression was always that the FW-190 was an outstanding all around fighter. There was almost no area of operation where it wasn't "very good" and a few where it was "exceptional". I don't tend to think of it as exceptionally maneuverable, like some Japanese AC, which was the comparison I was really going for.

I had forgotten, but I think you're right Big B. At altitude the P-47 became much more maneuverable. There really weren't an performance areas where it was a dog. However, as a pilot I think what I would appreciate most about the plane is the amount of battle damage it could take and still get you home. In that area it really was nearly unequaled for a fighter.

The real problem with evaluating the Fw-190 is that it's really two different aircraft. The Fw-190 A with the radial engine was an excellent low and medium altitude performer, and many were specialized as ground support aircraft. The Fw-190 D with it's inline engine was an exceptional performer at high altitude, but not as effective at medium and low levels. Too many people seem to combine the capabilities of both into one "super plane"..., which it wasn't. Like most of the "good" fighters of WW II it had it's strong points and it's weak points.

You can break it down even further than that. Looking at the A series.............

The A-1 was fairly fast and manueverable (at Low/Medium altitude) and didn't have masses of armour.

The A-5 was probably the 'best' dogfighter of the A series. It was the fastest of the variants, the most maneuverable, it was more durable than the A-1 and had more guns.

From then on the other variants (from A-5 to A-8/R8) become progressively heavier, slower, poorer climbers, less maneuverable BUT packed a heavier punch to try and deal with the US 4E's.......

just remember, the A8 is not the plane most people think of when they think of late model 190s, the A8 could do most of the what the A-5,A-6 could, the A-8/R7,A-8/R8 are the heavy Armored, heavy gunned models that most people think of when the A-8 is mentioned, those were the slugs, but they could get in close and knock down bombers, as long as the fighters were kept away from them

the standard A-7/A-8/A-9 were very HARD to tell apart in combat

also, depends on what the plane was carrying, rocket tubes, underwing gun pods, drop tanks, all ruined how the plane flew

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The real problem with evaluating the Fw-190 is that it's really two different aircraft. The Fw-190 A with the radial engine was an excellent low and medium altitude performer, and many were specialized as ground support aircraft ...

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

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ORIGINAL: Tiornu

Bearcat!
Hey, why not?

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

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ORIGINAL: Joe D.
For the record, the P-47 was produced in greater number (more than 15,000) than any other US fighter...

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

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ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

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ORIGINAL: Joe D.
For the record, the P-47 was produced in greater number (more than 15,000) than any other US fighter...

I thought the P-40 was the most produced WWII fighter, if one includes are variants, but I could be wrong.

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II