RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/30/2007 9:36:28 PM

Reiryc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino

quote:

To try and drag this away from too much politics, then an example might be something like the benefits we get from cheap products which are made in sweatshops in poorer parts of the world.

How do you determine a "guilty group" here? If I'm using these product, then it's my own guilt...Are you using those products, too? - Join the group...Eventually we'll have a group of people using the sweatshop products whose guilt was determined on individual basis.

I don't see that as an example of collective guilt...

To put it into perspective of our previous discussion: All Japanese that committed atrocities CAN be grouped together and labeled "murderous thugs"...I don't see any problem there.

I believe the argument would be that your nation which didn't ban and/or heavily tariff/restrict the importation of products made in such a way, would put all citizens of your nation in the collective guilt department even though it was individuals who bought the cheaply made products.

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Post #: 391

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/30/2007 9:37:22 PM

morvwilson

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I think that maybe the sweatshop example may not be the best for demonstrating guilt by association.

Perhaps we could look at the example of Sir Thomas Moore. During the reign of King Henry VIII of England, the King dumped whoever his current queen was and married Ann Bolin. Sir Thomas Moore did not back the marriage but said nothing about it. Parliment was forced by law�to interpret his silence as acceptance of the marriage.

Comming from the other side, in a hypothetical situation, lets say that Dino gives me a ride to a convience store. I go in, shoot the clerk, steal the money and flee. If dino does not report the crime, he could be charged with man slaughter and accessory to armed robery.

Now, granted I am not a trained attourney, but how would this fit in with the idea of collective guilt/individual guilt?
Does it make it all individual guilt so collective does not exist?
Or, do I have something wrong?

< Message edited by morvwilson -- 11/30/2007 9:38:38 PM >

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Post #: 392

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/30/2007 9:38:39 PM

Dino

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quote:

It's pretty simple for me. For example, if I harm your family then I've just put my own family in jeopardy. Clearly it would be "wrong" but right & wrong might no longer be a consideration for you.

Yes...I might commit a crime in affect, but it would still be a crime.

quote:

If you choose the high road, then good for you (and lucky for my family). But if you don't, I've brought it down on myself. That's true justice.

Harming innocents is a true justice? Never.

quote:

They still have no right to impose their belief system on those that think differently IMO.

I'm not "imposing" my beliefs on anyone....At most, I'm asking them to reconsider.

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Post #: 393

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/30/2007 9:48:47 PM

Dino

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quote:

If dino does not report the crime, he could be charged with man slaughter and accessory to armed robery.

If Dino was aware of the crime and didn't report it, than HE is guilty...Hi's wife and child are not.

This is getting to legal for me and I'm no attorney either...Just chalk me up as a libertarian.

quote:

The principle of collective guilt is totally denounced in libertarian social thinking.

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Post #: 394

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/30/2007 10:04:56 PM

morvwilson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino

quote:

If dino does not report the crime, he could be charged with man slaughter and accessory to armed robery.

If Dino was aware of the crime and didn't report it, than HE is guilty...Hi's wife and child are not.

This is getting to legal for me and I'm no attorney either...Just chalk me up as a libertarian.

quote:

The principle of collective guilt is totally denounced in libertarian social thinking.

Don't worry about the lack of legal training Dino. Sometimes I think that too much legal training tends to warp the your ability to think logicly and impair your judgement!

Also, I agree your wife would not be guilty even tho she would still pay a price.

< Message edited by morvwilson -- 11/30/2007 10:07:13 PM >

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Post #: 395

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/30/2007 10:19:42 PM

mjk428

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino

Harming innocents is a true justice? Never.

I take your family and you take mine. That's justice. However, you've identified the big downside - innocents pay the price for my bad behavior.

Many have moved beyond "an eye for an eye" for something I personally think is better. However, it's still the norm for most of the planet. And if I'm responsible for the well-being of a group of people, I will not put them in jeopardy for my own spiritual beliefs. I would be obligated to respond in kind should they be threatened by those that are still "old school".

To put it another way, on personal level I believe in the golden rule. "Treat others as you would have them treat you". Nations OTOH don't generally have that luxury. They usually have no choice but to treat others as they actually treat them. For example: Japan didn't sign or abide by the Geneva Conventions and consequently they shouldn't have been afforded its protections. Any treaty that would require my country to continue following the rules when others totally ignore them should never be ratified IMO.

quote:

I'm not "imposing" my beliefs on anyone....At most, I'm asking them to reconsider.

I didn't aim that at you specifically.

I was talking about a person that refuses to acknowledge collective guilt exists and is unwilling to even consider a different viewpoint.

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Post #: 396

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/30/2007 11:59:36 PM

Doggie

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quote:

freder

I'm Dutch you know, it's about a 1/20 the size of Texas. Just a little man from a little country: what do you care, Big Americano?

I figure I got a stake in Holland given the thousands of Americans who earned little plots of dirt in your little country. You're welcome.

quote:

it doesn't affect my life and I'm not a jealous guy.

Doesn't seem that way. Seems you would have prefered to be part of a bigger country called Fortress Europe. I guess it takes generations to get over your grand mama having her head shaved back in the winter of '44, huh?

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Post #: 397

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 12:03:48 AM

Dixie

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quote:

For example: Japan didn't sign or abide by the Geneva Conventions and consequently they shouldn't have been afforded its protections.

You're forgetting that as the goodies we have to play by the rules

Even if the other side aren't. Or when they aren't even playing the same game

< Message edited by Dixie -- 12/1/2007 12:05:09 AM >

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Post #: 398

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 12:15:42 AM

Doggie

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quote:

"Panzerjaeger" :

No, there we learned lots of other stuff, you know...like laws and stuff.

You must have been at the free clinic the day they covered arguing your case with facts, logic and reason. So far, all we got is "you're a racist", "what about the indians", and "I went to law school".

quote:

First, "my case" is that racism is wrong, stereotyping is the tool of the stupid, and guilt is individual not collective. You have not even begun arguing "my case", instead you have been trying to deflect the discussion into Swedish behavior in ww2, what is a concentration camp, and generally call me names

Excuse me? I think I missed those points while you were rambling on about American internment camps, the Indian wars, My Lai, your law school, how the Swedes were superior to everyone else, and what ignorant, arrogant racist liars the Americans who fought the Japanese were.

quote:

No I havent, yes it is. For your argument to work, you would have to make the case that on a moral level, the female switchboard operator at the Reichstag is just as much to blame as the "soldier" in the einzatsgruppe who personally butchered tens of thousands of jews.

Hey, there was this soldier in the einsatzgruppe who adopted a puppy, and wrote home to his poor sick and shut in mother every week. He even tossed a crust of bread to some Jewish kid on a deportation train. I heard about him the same place you heard about all those kindly Japanese soldiers.

Some people loaded up the cattle cars; others only made sure they ran on time. Those people deserve a pass because they didn't personally get their hands dirty, huh?

Not to mention being lectured on ethics by a "lawyer".

You know the difference between a whore and an attorney, "Panzerjaeger"? There's some things a whore won't do for money.

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 12:23:07 AM

mjk428

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

For example: Japan didn't sign or abide by the Geneva Conventions and consequently they shouldn't have been afforded its protections.

You're forgetting that as the goodies we have to play by the rules

Even if the other side aren't. Or when they aren't even playing the same game

I disagree. I think we can still choose to abide but should no longer be obligated to do so. And the last people that get to complain about our choice are those that paid them no heed to begin with.

However, if beforehand we did agree to abide even if others don't - then yes we would have to be true to our word. It's just an agreement that IMO should not be made. I don't like one-sided contracts.

< Message edited by mjk428 -- 12/1/2007 12:24:30 AM >

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 12:48:18 AM

Lionfish

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wesy

Sure there were bad guys on all sides - here's another link to our own less than wonderful people. Trust me i'm not discounting the Japanese attrocities, but humans from all sides were guilty.

here are some less than swell allied folk

No doubt you are right, there are bad guys on every side. However, when the administration, generals, or ruling party ORDERS the massacure of others it goes beyound a few bad guys on all sides.

However there is a big difference between bad guys doing wrong and an entire nation under orders to commit genocide.

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Post #: 401

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 8:39:26 AM

wesy

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K. We forget our own history.

Here's a link to our less than "nice" occupation of the phillipines. I think the standing orders was from the american general was shoo anyone over 10 years old. Let alone our treatment of African-Americans in this country over the years. Sure you can say well we didn't put them in concentration camps - no we just used them as slaves, then we used Jim Crow laws to keep them down, and uh we have less than desirable folks lynch them as well, "seperate but equal" boy we're so good at criticizing others but fail to look into our own sordid history. Hmm..I don't think African Americans were able to by a home in certain cities in the supposed "liberal" SF bay area, until the 70's (due to deed restrictions etc.). I'm not saying that our axis friends we're any better, but we're getting into the areas of moral relativism. We're just less bad. Hmm what did the UK do to China? Opium Trade. Nice. Manifest Destiny. Let's just kill all the native americans and take their land...hmmm nice blankets - let's give them "those ones"...Let's get our colony addicted to Opium. that's it! :).

The war is over, let's get over it, but don't overlook or less than steller records on human right..as Shakespeare once said "...he doth protesteth too much.."

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Post #: 402

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 8:40:40 AM

wesy

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oops here the link:

Spanish American War

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Post #: 403

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 10:07:19 AM

06 Maestro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wesy

K. We forget our own history.

Here's a link to our less than "nice" occupation of the phillipines. I think the standing orders was from the american general was shoo anyone over 10 years old. Let alone our treatment of African-Americans in this country over the years. Sure you can say well we didn't put them in concentration camps - no we just used them as slaves, then we used Jim Crow laws to keep them down, and uh we have less than desirable folks lynch them as well, "seperate but equal" boy we're so good at criticizing others but fail to look into our own sordid history. Hmm..I don't think African Americans were able to by a home in certain cities in the supposed "liberal" SF bay area, until the 70's (due to deed restrictions etc.). I'm not saying that our axis friends we're any better, but we're getting into the areas of moral relativism. We're just less bad. Hmm what did the UK do to China? Opium Trade. Nice. Manifest Destiny. Let's just kill all the native americans and take their land...hmmm nice blankets - let's give them "those ones"...Let's get our colony addicted to Opium. that's it! :).

The war is over, let's get over it, but don't overlook or less than steller records on human right..as Shakespeare once said "...he doth protesteth too much.."

wesy

To be fair, if you are going to use the America of 1859 as a moral standard of our country, then you must compare it to the standards which existed in other nations at the same time- not one hundred years later.

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Post #: 404

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 3:49:51 PM

SwampYankee68

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Excellent point, one that many people should consider before they start pointing out country A or country B's failures.

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 4:21:25 PM

Hortlund

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
To be fair, if you are going to use the America of 1859 as a moral standard of our country, then you must compare it to the standards which existed in other nations at the same time- not one hundred years later.

Sure. Compare it with Sweden 1859. No slaves, no wars of aggression, no massacres. Whats your point?

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 5:00:20 PM

freder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

I guess it takes generations to get over your grand mama having her head shaved back in the winter of '44, huh?

Dear Doggie,

Please know what you're talking about. My grand mama's head was shaved in the spring of '45. As I allready noticed you're knowledge of historical facts is rather meagre.
Oh oh, you're really a sad person, aren't you?

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Post #: 407

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 7:43:04 PM

mjk428

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wesy

I'm not saying that our axis friends we're any better, but we're getting into the areas of moral relativism. We're just less bad.

Actually our behavior was significantly better during the period in time. And the Axis are not our friends. What you're doing is deflecting the guilt that the Axis deserves and directing it at the US.

As someone said: "1 atrocity or 10 million, what's the difference?"

The difference is the scale. WW2 saw humanity reach new depths of depravity and I think it's important that we never forget that. Nor should we forget that it was Japan & Germany plumbing those depths. That's not to say that it should be held against modern Japan or Germany. But it should always be held against them historically.

IMO, although I understand the reasons why, it's our alliance with the Soviets that is the most shameful chapter of the last 100 years of US history. Yet, I rarely if ever see anti-US talking points on that subject. Wonder why that is?

< Message edited by mjk428 -- 12/1/2007 8:09:26 PM >

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 8:19:00 PM

mjk428

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freder

Dear Doggie,

Please know what you're talking about. My grand mama's head was shaved in the spring of '45. As I allready noticed you're knowledge of historical facts is rather meagre.
Oh oh, you're really a sad person, aren't you?

I gotta ask.

Who shaved her head and why in Spring '45?

I understand what Doggie was referencing. It was depicted in Band of Brothers, if that helps you out any. The difference of a few months is quite beside the point.

Anyway I'm sorry for your grandma but she would have likely fared far worse in Japanese hands*.

edit-

Assuming she wasn't Jewish or from any other group the Nazis systematically slaughtered.

< Message edited by mjk428 -- 12/1/2007 8:36:58 PM >

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/1/2007 8:54:11 PM

mjk428

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Sure. Compare it with Sweden 1859. No slaves, no wars of aggression, no massacres. Whats your point?

What's yours?

The US (and many others) fought the Nazis. Sweden aided them. Sweden's only claim to fame (infamy) in the last few hundred years.

Although lots of Swedes did come to the US and help make it what it is today. Hats off to them - even if some may have participated in a massacre of two.

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Post #: 410

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/2/2007 8:54:22 AM

Doggie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Sure. Compare it with Sweden 1859. No slaves, no wars of aggression, no massacres. Whats your point?

Okay, let's compare:

In the middle of the nineteenth century, Sweden was a land of poverty, want and social frustration.

Are you sure you're from Sweden? Most American high school kids seem to know more about Sweden than you do.

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Post #: 411

RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/2/2007 9:26:05 AM

Doggie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freder

Please know what you're talking about. My grand mama's head was shaved in the spring of '45. As I allready noticed you're knowledge of historical facts is rather meagre.
Oh oh, you're really a sad person, aren't you?

My knowledge of historical facts is pretty spot on. It's yours that seems to be lacking. The first Americans soldiers to die liberating Holland did so in 1944. After 1945, the evil American capitalists all but rebuilt Holland from the ground up, then helped do it again following the North Sea floods of 1953.

If it weren't for racist American soldiers, there wouldn't even be a Holland today. It is kind of sad to think all that effort was wasted on ingrates like you, but there were plenty of decent people in Holland that made it worth while.

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/2/2007 9:35:37 AM

Doggie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wesy

The war is over, let's get over it, but don't overlook or less than steller records on human rights

Less than steller, perhaps, but still light years beyond just about everyone else. Especially the Japanese.

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/2/2007 10:33:05 PM

Hortlund

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie
Okay, let's compare:

In the middle of the nineteenth century, Sweden was a land of poverty, want and social frustration.

Ok, so we were poor.
The US had slaves, massacred the native americans, and lets not even begin to talk about the Phillipines.

Do you remember what we were comparing? Yeah, thats right, we win.

quote:

Are you sure you're from Sweden? Most American high school kids seem to know more about Sweden than you do.

LOL, yeah right. What is it...58% of American high school kids cant point out their own nation on a world map? Id be surprised if there are more than 5% who understands the difference between Sweden and Switzerland.

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/2/2007 10:34:47 PM

Hortlund

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Sure. Compare it with Sweden 1859. No slaves, no wars of aggression, no massacres. Whats your point?

What's yours?

That even if we compare the US 1859 with another nation 1859, you lose.

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/2/2007 11:07:25 PM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

LOL, yeah right. What is it...58% of American high school kids cant point out their own nation on a world map? Id be surprised if there are more than 5% who understands the difference between Sweden and Switzerland.

I really get a kick out of watching you go on about �Individual blah-blah BS , but once America enters into your
delusional debate you immediately take up the position of a �Collective un-educated racist Americans .

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/3/2007 1:29:10 AM

Doggie

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quote:

I really get a kick out of watching you go on about �Individual blah-blah BS , but once America enters into your
delusional debate you immediately take up the position of a �Collective un-educated racist Americans .

Well, that is what it's all about, isn't it? The whole thing is about "proving" the racial and genetic superiority of pure bred Europeans. They're more "highly evolved" than us mongrels. It's elitist snobs on parade. Harummph. I went to law school. I'm so much more educated than you ruffians." Then he steals that map from the MCS archives.

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/3/2007 2:03:29 AM

Doggie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Ok, so we were poor.
The US had slaves, massacred the native americans, and lets not even begin to talk about the Phillipines.

Sweden didn't need slaves; it had Swedes. That's why everyone in Sweden was trying to hop on a boat to the United States. They were slaves in their own country. Americans ended slavery in 1865 at the cost of a half a million American lives. It took a half a million more American lives to end slavery in Europe and the Pacific in 1945. So what has Sweden ever done for anyone?

The native Americans were massacred in European controlled Central and South America. The native South Americans don't exist anymore. The North American Indians weren't rounded up out of their beds and shipped off to gas chambers. They were warriors who fought each other and American settlers for centuries and lost. The Phillipinos weren't exactly holding candle light vigils either.

quote:

Do you remember what we were comparing? Yeah, thats right, we win.

We were comparing the conduct of the Japanese armed forces with that of the Americans. You can't justify your delusion about how Americans were worse than them so you keep trying to change the subject. You didn't "win" anything, because you've never done anything. Your whole argument about Swedes being racially superior to Americans rests on the premise that you've never accomplished anything.

quote:

LOL, yeah right. What is it...58% of American high school kids cant point out their own nation on a world map? Id be surprised if there are more than 5% who understands the difference between Sweden and Switzerland.

Who says? Some Swedish college kid? One that doesn't even know the history of his own country? Every American here seems to know a lot more about your history than you do. And we know we get porn and self rightous snobs from Sweden and corrupt UN officials from Switzerland. You get people who make a difference in the world from the United States.

quote:

That even if we compare the US 1859 with another nation 1859, you lose.

What other nation would that be? Anybody risking their lives on a sailboat in the 19th century trying to make it to Sweden? Or the twentieth for that matter. So why was everyone trying to get the hell out of Europe if it was such a Eutopia?

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/3/2007 3:23:56 AM

06 Maestro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

I really get a kick out of watching you go on about �Individual blah-blah BS , but once America enters into your
delusional debate you immediately take up the position of a �Collective un-educated racist Americans .

Excellent observation, Sarge, but I'm afraid it calls for common sense to understand. It has become obvious the PZJ Hortlund is either lacking in common sense, or is just a hypocrite.

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 12/3/2007 3:34:24 AM

ORANGE

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
To be fair, if you are going to use the America of 1859 as a moral standard of our country, then you must compare it to the standards which existed in other nations at the same time- not one hundred years later.

Sure. Compare it with Sweden 1859. No slaves, no wars of aggression, no massacres. Whats your point?

Sweden certainly had no problem in contributing to the slavery problem the United States inherited from the Europeans. Slavery was not abolished in Sweden until 1847.

The fact that Sweden was not involved in wars of aggression or massacres does not mean that Swedes were or are morally superior. Sweden was not capable of either at the time and with declining colonies had little use for slaves. A quick look at Swedish history shows that Swedes certainly had no problem with either when they had the ability and the slightest need.

< Message edited by ORANGE -- 12/3/2007 3:36:52 AM >

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