CP supply in the late game

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CP supply in the late game - 12/22/2007 1:06:40 PM

Disintegration

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Since going to 1.2 I've had games go longer than they ever did vs. the old do-nothing AI (and yay for that!) I've noticed something that I hadn't encountered before: playing as the CP, starting sometime around late 1916 or early 1917, after causing either a Russian or French surrender, the supply level of all CP hexes suddenly drops dramatically. Front-line hexes often go to 5% or less and even cities in Germany drop to no higher than 51%. Hexes Germany has always controlled, like those along the 1914 border with France, drop to about 25-30%. Ditto for the AH Empire. This makes it next to impossible to continue attacking the remaining continental enemies.

You can see the effects in the screenshot with Metz at 32% supply and the German units all stuck at low readiness.

This doesn't seem to happen with the TE - their units continue to attack with a readiness of 8 and 9 while all mine except new reinforcements are stuck at 0 through 5 or 6.

Has anyone else noticed this? Did it happen with earlier versions and I didn't notice it? And is it a bug or intentional? Is it a result of something going on with the CP economies? Is there any way to prevent it?

It seems rather ahistorical given what the Germans were able to do on the Western Front in 1918.

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 12/22/2007 4:52:49 PM

boogada

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Yes we had this problem in a game, and thats why we have no updated to 1.21. Frank Hunter has been informed.

Its covered here I think:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1636820

(in reply to Disintegration)

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 12/22/2007 10:37:59 PM

Disintegration

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quote:

ORIGINAL: boogada

Yes we had this problem in a game, and thats why we have no updated to 1.21. Frank Hunter has been informed.

Its covered here I think:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1636820

Yup, it must be the food supply. Thanks for helping!

(in reply to boogada)

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/8/2008 10:04:26 PM

FrankHunter

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I have a save of a supply issue concerning the city of Athens (fixed) but if there's other supply issues please tell me and I will check them out asap. Thanks!

(in reply to Disintegration)

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/8/2008 10:29:23 PM

Lascar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

I have a save of a supply issue concerning the city of Athens (fixed) but if there's other supply issues please tell me and I will check them out asap. Thanks!

Frank,
Thanks for the quick response to the Athens issue I sent you. I have another question related to supply. If the British and Russian link up in Mesopotamia creating a line of communications (controlled hexes) between them shouldn't the British be able to send industrial points and other resources to Russia. In a game I am currently playing the link up occurred but no option to send resource/industrial points to Russia appeared in the transfer option during the Strategic phase.

Also I found the British supply dropping to single digit values as they advanced further into Mesopotamia towards Baghdad even though the British had a line of controlled hexes going back to Basra. Is this intended?

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/8/2008 11:00:08 PM

FrankHunter

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quote:

Also I found the British supply dropping to single digit values as they advanced further into Mesopotamia towards Baghdad even though the British had a line of controlled hexes going back to Basra. Is this intended?

Yes, those hexes have low supply values so the supply percentage drops pretty quick. Makes it easy for the Turks to defend away from the sea.

quote:

shouldn't the British be able to send industrial points and other resources to Russia

I've never tried that but I would think so as long as the sea zones between Britain and the Eastern Med was controlled. I would have to test an actual example though.

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/8/2008 11:05:54 PM

hjaco

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I can confirm that it is not possible to send economic aid to Russia that way. Technically as the rule is it should be possible but if viewed realistically I think it is just fine as it is. How in earth should the help get through that God forsaken terrain ?

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/8/2008 11:24:56 PM

boogada

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British aid would rather go through Persia. At least it did in WWII. But in much smaller scala than the supplies via Murmansk.

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/8/2008 11:44:31 PM

Lascar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

I can confirm that it is not possible to send economic aid to Russia that way. Technically as the rule is it should be possible but if viewed realistically I think it is just fine as it is. How in earth should the help get through that God forsaken terrain ?

So other than opening up the Dardanelles there is no way to get aid through to Russia?

(in reply to hjaco)

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 12:18:03 AM

SMK-at-work

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quote:

ORIGINAL: boogada

British aid would rather go through Persia. At least it did in WWII. But in much smaller scala than the supplies via Murmansk.�

About as much LL went through Persia as Murmansk, but most British aid went through Murmansk.

50% of LL went through Vladivostock. Somewhere I had a nice graphic map showing the relative volumes but I can't find it jsut now - I'll go look....[edit] - see http://www.geocities.com/zimbobone/Refrences.html

To ship aid through Persia in WW2 the allies had to upgrade construct the required infrastriucture - especially railroads - I suspect they didn't even exist in WW1.

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 1/9/2008 12:26:36 AM >

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 12:36:37 AM

boogada

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From a book I read recently about Russia in WWII I got the impression that the line via Persia only handled like 1/4 of the amounts that took the northern route via arctic convoys.

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 12:39:28 AM

SMK-at-work

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You might have misread it - Iran transited roughly 1/4 of the total.

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 12:47:07 AM

SMK-at-work

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Some accounts of the eforts can be found on hte web -

http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/persian/chapter02.htm
http://www.iranian.com/History/Nov97/WWII/index.html
http://www.usace.army.mil/publications/eng-pamphlets/ep870-1-42/c-5-1.pdf

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 1:01:38 AM

boogada

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Hmm I just checked and it says that at one point the Allies offered ~8.8 million tons, but could only ship about half of it at that point (Oct. 1942) and 3.3. took the northern route and 1.1. the southern. Vladivostok is not mentioned, I guess because at that time the Japaneese had control of that area. The total numbers might be different if you look at the whole period (-1945), because the southern and far eastern routes got more reliable after the construction of infrastructure and the American offensives in the Pacific.

I refer to "Absolute War" by Chris Bellamy.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 1:17:15 AM

SMK-at-work

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The Japanese never controlled Vladivostok - but only non-military supplies were sent that way because it would have been quite vulnerable had hte Japs changed their mind.

the Vlaivostok route was serviced by Soviet flagged ships sailing directly from the USA.

The USACE (US Army Corps of Engineers) site I link to above says that 4 million tons of military supplies went through Iran, and this was the majority of military supplies

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 2:00:06 AM

SMK-at-work

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finally found the site I was looking for - http://www.o5m6.de/Routes.html - it has info on types of LL and how much of each was shipped by which routes for various time periods down to monthly - fascinating stuff....at least it is for me :)

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 8:37:56 AM

hjaco

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar

quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

I can confirm that it is not possible to send economic aid to Russia that way. Technically as the rule is it should be possible but if viewed realistically I think it is just fine as it is. How in earth should the help get through that God forsaken terrain ?

So other than opening up the Dardanelles there is no way to get aid through to Russia?

You need control of Constantinopel.

(in reply to Lascar)

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 9:20:55 PM

Lascar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar

quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

I can confirm that it is not possible to send economic aid to Russia that way. Technically as the rule is it should be possible but if viewed realistically I think it is just fine as it is. How in earth should the help get through that God forsaken terrain ?

So other than opening up the Dardanelles there is no way to get aid through to Russia?

You need control of Constantinopel.

Yes, but is there any other way to get aid to Russia other than controlling Constantinople. Through the Baltic for instance.

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 9:44:29 PM

wargamer123

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I haven't gone the Baltic Trade Route with the Russians, I think it's pretty dangerous with the HSF

Though I've read about a player supplying Russia a bit this way, seems perilious, also I don't recall there ever being much of a Western ET presence in the Baltic because it's hard to get into without Denmark's cooperation...

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 10:46:42 PM

hjaco

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You can't enter the Baltic with the Entente except for SUBS.

You need control of Constantinople so you either have to go through the desert, make a new Gallipoli or go through the Balkan.

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 11:08:01 PM

SMK-at-work

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You used to be able to do it through continental Europe....Austria for example.....

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 11:14:06 PM

Lascar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

You can't enter the Baltic with the Entente except for SUBS.

You need control of Constantinople so you either have to go through the desert, make a new Gallipoli or go through the Balkan.

If you mean by the "desert" going through Mesopotamia; I have tried that and it doesn't allow transfers through Russia from Basra. However, you can Strategically move multiple corps from Mesopotamia into Russia. So if the transport infrastructure allows for the movement of tens of thousands of men along with their equipment into Russia, via Mesopotamia and the Caucuses, then it should allow for transfers of resources and finished industrial goods along the same route.

< Message edited by Lascar -- 1/9/2008 11:22:34 PM >

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 11:37:28 PM

hjaco

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I mean what i write Lascar

You need to get to Constantinople which can be achieved from different directions one is through the coastal part of the desert.

Please look at my first note in this thread to you regarding shipment through Mesopotamia and the Caucasus.

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/9/2008 11:38:58 PM

hjaco

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar
So if the transport infrastructure allows for the movement of tens of thousands of men along with their equipment into Russia, via Mesopotamia and the Caucuses, then it should allow for transfers of resources and finished industrial goods along the same route.

I agree with you in some part in this though. Strategic movement should definitely not be possible that way.

(in reply to Lascar)

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/10/2008 12:45:21 AM

Lascar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar
So if the transport infrastructure allows for the movement of tens of thousands of men along with their equipment into Russia, via Mesopotamia and the Caucuses, then it should allow for transfers of resources and finished industrial goods along the same route.

I agree with you in some part in this though. Strategic movement should definitely not be possible that way.

While it may debatable as to how well developed the transportation infrastructure was in the Caucuses and Mesopotamia during the war, at least the rules should be internally consistent with regard to resource transfers and Strategic movement, since transfers are a function of Strategic movement in the game.

(in reply to hjaco)

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/10/2008 1:47:25 AM

wargamer123

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It's debatable, there wasn't much rails in Mesopotamia and the Caucasus Mnts in the WW1 era. I'm almost certain that the transfer of materials through such a perilious place would be far far too much effort. Now via the rails through TransJordan-Syria, up through Turkey I'm not sure. I do not know if there was much infrastructure in Eastern Turkey, but watching a show on TransJordan-Syrian Rails that were WW1 dated on the Travel Channel shows it was there and used frequently and anyone who knows about Lawrence of Arabia has a concept of it also, they still use the same WW1 rails there! So there was more capability than we might know locally at least and I'm sure tied into the OE during the time period in some way shape or form, but all the way to Russia? So the Rails were there but enough to carry qtr. of a million men? How quickly? Perhaps at a greater cost, perhaps there should be the ability at a -%50 cost. Or some other sort of penalty. Anyway

I have a question to pose on a few of you. Playing the CP several times now I've noticed how quickly the German resources hit rock bottom though morale-industry-food are all in tact and uncaptured. I'm a bit baffled... 7 Points??? She is supposed to gain strength as she progresses and Austria is equivelant to her with 6 points... This is on of my several current CP Games. There shows no -food -morale -anything I can see clearly... I'd like to know where my mysterious points are going. I thought she was base 8

< Message edited by wargamer123 -- 1/10/2008 1:49:35 AM >

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/10/2008 8:58:16 AM

hjaco

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My reservation against comparing raw material transportation and troop transportation by train is based upon that first the requirement to the rolling material is fundamentally different and just as importantly the requirement to station facilities to load/unload the train is hugely different as well.

There was indeed some internal infrastructure between Syria/Jordan/Iraq in the OE. This was however primarily passenger transportation and had no connection to the Turkish part of the empire which was hugely undeveloped at that time as was the mountainous region of the Caucasus.

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/10/2008 9:06:14 AM

hjaco

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I have a question to pose on a few of you. Playing the CP several times now I've noticed how quickly the German resources hit rock bottom though morale-industry-food are all in tact and uncaptured. I'm a bit baffled... 7 Points??? She is supposed to gain strength as she progresses and Austria is equivelant to her with 6 points... This is on of my several current CP Games. There shows no -food -morale -anything I can see clearly... I'd like to know where my mysterious points are going. I thought she was base 8
[/quote]

Maybe you lost some raw material hexes ? Some of them contain more than 1 raw material. I assume you remember to transfer surplus raw material from AH to Germany each turn and trade in the Baltic ? Same point with the urgency to link up with OE to transfer their raw material each turn.

This should bring your average up to at least 12-15 IP per turn.

(in reply to wargamer123)

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/10/2008 9:29:17 AM

Lascar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

My reservation against comparing raw material transportation and troop transportation by train is based upon that first the requirement to the rolling material is fundamentally different and just as importantly the requirement to station facilities to load/unload the train is hugely different as well.

There was indeed some internal infrastructure between Syria/Jordan/Iraq in the OE. This was however primarily passenger transportation and had no connection to the Turkish part of the empire which was hugely undeveloped at that time as was the mountainous region of the Caucasus.

The aid that the TE would send to Russia would be primarily finished goods (weapons, ammo etc.) in game terms Industrial points. No sense in sending Russia raw materials resources, they have an over abundance of their own which their limited industrial capacity can never fully consume. Russia is sorely in need of industrial points to allow their army to reach its full military potential and much of TE strategy should be directed toward getting that aid through to Russia to fend off Revolution and the collapse of the Russian war effort.

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RE: CP supply in the late game - 1/10/2008 10:00:53 AM

hjaco

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar

quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

My reservation against comparing raw material transportation and troop transportation by train is based upon that first the requirement to the rolling material is fundamentally different and just as importantly the requirement to station facilities to load/unload the train is hugely different as well.

There was indeed some internal infrastructure between Syria/Jordan/Iraq in the OE. This was however primarily passenger transportation and had no connection to the Turkish part of the empire which was hugely undeveloped at that time as was the mountainous region of the Caucasus.

The aid that the TE would send to Russia would be primarily finished goods (weapons, ammo etc.) in game terms Industrial points. No sense in sending Russia raw materials resources, they have an over abundance of their own which their limited industrial capacity can never fully consume. Russia is sorely in need of industrial points to allow their army to reach its full military potential and much of TE strategy should be directed toward getting that aid through to Russia to fend off Revolution and the collapse of the Russian war effort.

Apparently you haven't faced a Russia first strategy as the Entente

In that case food becomes the most scarce commodity for Russia. But even finished goods still needs facilities to transfer from ship to harbor and get it transported to facilities at train goods "terminals" and loaded again.

IMO it should neither be possible to transfer raw materials nor troops from Mesopotamia to Russia.

(in reply to Lascar)

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