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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden!

 
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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 3:22:40 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/17/42

No time tonight to comment...too tired...tomorrow i'llpost screenshots and comments...for tonight i'll limit myself to the combat report

EDIT: Ok, now i can comment...

The Japs came bombing the hell out of Karachi with the whole combined fleet.
CA Kumano and CL Juntsu got badly hit by my 9.2 Guns and sunk immediately, while i lost 28 planes on the ground. The AF is operative already and the damages are light, even if some units are a bit disabled, but with 3 big HQs at Karachi and 380,000 supplies i think i can recover quite fast.
Now the real problem is the advance of the Japs towards Bomphal. As you can see from the screenshots the bulk of his forces is moving fast. I'm already avacuating the base and i ordered to evacuate also Bombay...simply cannot let my units being trapped there...this will give to the japs the ability to bomb Karachi from sea very often, using Bombay as a close supporting port...but that's was foreseen, so there's no big surprise.
Trollelite says his ships have to refuel, so i think they're going back to Mangalore...I still have 150 fighters and some 180 bombers at Karachi. We're also planning to airlift to Karachi the Albacore groups of my CVs...those experienced crews could give some more headhaches to his Combined fleet.
I'll try to force the blockade using some fast APs from Aden, in order to bring the III Ind. Corp HQ there...everything might help. My 2 CVs will try to give some air cover staying safe in the channell and LRCAPPING for some time...let's see!
However i've lost nearly 80 ships during these days near Karachi...which is quite a lot!! But this is the price to pay to keep the Brits alive, so everything must be tried and sacrificed!

In the PI he finally came bombing Manila...but he bombed the port instead of the AF...15 Nells/Betties were lost due to A2A in the process and few more were badly hit by my AA guns...no escort...that's strange...the zeros are probably moving towards Kwalajein in order to face my B-17s that are raiding the AF there from Wake...mmmm....i'll try to hit some of his shipping again near Formosa, just to force him to face the threat to his communication lines...

To answer to Eldan, the replacement of this scenario is 15 for the IJN and 30 for the IJA...so yes, the KB should be hurt in some ways having lost some 80 crack pilots during the last 4 days....but still the attrition battle hasn't begun, so it should still have the time to rebuilt his crews...

For what concerns the Retribution operation, we're consolidating at Tarawa. Already 180 AVs present, with CD guns and base forces. Catalinas and Conrados are already based there, but i do not see any real threat regarding his surface fleet, which is completely committed in India...
The only real threat are the Nells/Betties...
The Invasion TFs are some 20 Hexes from Maloep right now. My BBs are moving along with the CVs faster in order to start the bombing runs 5 days before the landings. From Canton Island another bombardment TF is moving towards Maloep. CL Boise is the flag ship...let's hope

We've also started to bomb Timor with few B-17s. It's just a nuiance, but if he won't do anything in the next month Timor will completely be annihilated...i want him to bring here some of his Air forces...that cannot simply be everywhere!




It's boring to read these reports...but if you want to have the complete picture i'll leave them...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
TK Empire Coral, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
TK Empire Norse, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
TK Empire Onyx, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
AK Derrymore
AK Deslock, Shell hits 21, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AK Madura, Shell hits 29, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
AK Jalapalaka, Shell hits 39, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
TK Soli, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
TK Harpa, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
TK British Motorist, Shell hits 22, and is sunk
TK Francol, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
AP Mount Vernon, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AP Aorangi, Shell hits 19, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AP Dunera, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
AP Empire Trooper, Shell hits 4,  on fire
AP Felix Roussel, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
AP Cap St. Jacques
AP Empire Tamar, Shell hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
AP Rajula, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
AK Dardanus, Shell hits 18, and is sunk
AK Ulysses, Shell hits 13, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa, Shell hits 1
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
AK Kainalu, Shell hits 38, and is sunk
AK Steelmaker, Shell hits 25, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
AK Empire Hope, Shell hits 32, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
AK Empire Puma, Shell hits 24, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
AK Empire Raleigh, Shell hits 45, and is sunk
AK Empire Raven, Shell hits 32, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kumano
CA Aoba
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
DD Hagikaze
DD Yamagumo
DD Yamakaze
DD Kawakaze
DD Umikaze
DD Suzukaze
DD Shirayuki
DD Hatsuyuki

Allied Ships
AK Empire Chaucer, Shell hits 37, and is sunk
AK Empire Homer, Shell hits 27, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Mutsu
BB Hyuga
BB Fuso
DD Natsugumo
DD Minegumo
DD Asagumo
DD Arare
DD Harusame
DD Akatsuki
DD Inazuma
DD Murakumo
DD Asagiri
DD Akebono
DD Sazanami

Allied Ships
TK Empire Emerald, Shell hits 15, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Karachi, at 21,3 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

101 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
CA Furutaka, Shell hits 2
CA Kinugasa, Shell hits 1
CA Aoba, Shell hits 14
CA Kumano, Shell hits 3,  heavy damage *SINKS*
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 5,  on fire
CA Mikuma
CA Mogami

Allied Ships
AK Subadur, Shell hits 1,  on fire
AK Borgfred, Shell hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
PC Pathan, Shell hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
AK Empire Foam, Shell hits 1


Allied ground losses:
107 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 1

Port hits 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Bombay, at 18,11 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 1 destroyed

49 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
CA Ashigara
CA Nachi
CA Haguro
CA Chokai
CA Maya, Shell hits 6
CA Atago
CA Takao
CA Chikuma
CA Tone

Allied Ships
TK Empire Steel, Shell hits 3,  on fire,  heavy damage


Allied ground losses:
1577 casualties reported
Guns lost 37
Vehicles lost 3

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 15
Port hits 10
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Karachi, at 21,3 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed
Wirraway: 1 destroyed
Martin 139: 1 destroyed

9 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
CL Nagara
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 7,  on fire,  heavy damage *SINKS*
CA Kako

Allied Ships
PC Pathan, Shell hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
TK Athelstane, Shell hits 2
AK Empire Gilbert, Shell hits 1,  on fire
AO Appleleaf, Shell hits 1,  on fire
AK Louisianan, Shell hits 2,  on fire
SC Genista, Shell hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
AK Empire Kumari, Shell hits 1
AK Peisander, Shell hits 1
AK Chilka, Shell hits 1
AK Memphis City, Shell hits 1,  on fire
AK Fairfield City, Shell hits 1


Allied ground losses:
2154 casualties reported
Guns lost 36
Vehicles lost 2

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 9
Port hits 2
Port supply hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Karachi, at 21,3


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Hudson I: 2 destroyed
Blenheim I: 1 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 4 destroyed
Blenheim IV: 1 destroyed
Hurricane IIb: 2 destroyed
Do 24K-2: 1 destroyed
Buffalo I: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Fuso
BB Hyuga
BB Mutsu
BB Kongo

Allied Ships
TK Athelstane, Shell hits 5,  on fire
AK Empire Bay, Shell hits 3,  on fire,  heavy damage
AK Memphis City, Shell hits 3,  on fire,  heavy damage
AK Peisander, Shell hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
AK Louisianan, Shell hits 1,  on fire
PC Parvati, Shell hits 3,  on fire
MLE Prome, Shell hits 5,  on fire,  heavy damage
AK Empire Gilbert, Shell hits 3,  on fire,  heavy damage
AO Appleleaf, Shell hits 3,  on fire,  heavy damage
AO Pleiodon, Shell hits 4,  on fire,  heavy damage
PG Shoreham, Shell hits 3,  on fire,  heavy damage
AK Empire Bond, Shell hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
AK Empire Foam, Shell hits 1,  on fire
AK Jalarajan, Shell hits 2,  on fire
AK Borgfred, Shell hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
TK Empire Diplomat, Shell hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
AK Empire Nightingale, Shell hits 1,  on fire
AK Subadur, Shell hits 1,  on fire
AK Empire Waterhen, Shell hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
TK Empire Druid, Shell hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage


Allied ground losses:
5970 casualties reported OUCH!!!!!!!
Guns lost 82
Vehicles lost 2

Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 7
Runway hits 22
Port hits 2
Port supply hits 2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila , at 43,52

This was a terrible mission for him....the morale and fatigue of these bombing groups should now be really low!!!

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 74
G4M1 Betty x 47

Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 4 destroyed, 29 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 6 destroyed, 7 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Tomahawk: 8 damaged

I have some new aces now at Manila

Allied Ships
PT MTB 11, Bomb hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
PT MTB 8, Bomb hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
AK Sagoland, Bomb hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
PT MTB 7, Bomb hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage


Allied ground losses:
79 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
Vehicles lost 1

Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1





And in China things are moving...i've forced him to move his troops to the south to face the menace of a great Pocket......I'm marching towards Shangai---

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Gen.Hoepner -- 12/24/2007 12:29:06 PM >

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(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 451
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 11:49:09 AM   
Elladan

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 8/18/2005
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline 		What is Japanese replacement pilots situation in this scenario? KB losses seems very severe. That alone might be worth more than all those ships sunk.

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 452
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 12:29:19 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		.




Attachment (1)

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(in reply to Elladan)
Post #: 453
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 12:40:03 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		And here's the points situation.
As you can see he barely has a 2-1. Despite the huge losses in terms of ships, i haven't lost any important one (a part from 1 BB and 2 CLs caught at Singapore on the first day), so my combat ability is intact.




Attachment (1)

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(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 454
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 12:52:14 PM   
okami


Posts: 404
Joined: 5/23/2007
Status: offline 		I have a question, is it allowed to bomb resources in your game or do you have a houserule against this? If you can then I would suggest that instead of anti shipping use 4E bombers to flatten Tarakan or Brunai.

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 455
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 12:59:44 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		6 days untill the 7th Armoured Bde appears in Aden. Considering that the RAF is not annihilated yet on the Continent i think Aden is almost safe, because i do not see how he could invade it before taking the rest of India right now. The bulk of his Divisions are on the continent, so he won't be able to launch a direct offensive on Aden before 1 month i think...in one month at Aden there will be the 6th AIF division and a Canadian Bde, along with the 7th Armoured Tank....so enough to discourage any real offensive. It's also true that having sunk most of my AK/APs in the Arabic Sea, that means i won't be able to launch any serious counteroffensive from Aden in the near future.....however the strategic obj. is to force him to keep his forces here, so that i can have free hands in the pacific... If i can grab the Marshalls i'll be able to threaten directly the Mariannas......and with the PI still in my hands....oh well...maybe i do not have to think about a so far away future...better to stick into the present

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(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 456
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 1:01:54 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: okami

I have a question, is it allowed to bomb resources in your game or do you have a houserule against this? If you can then I would suggest that instead of anti shipping use 4E bombers to flatten Tarakan or Brunai.


It is allowed only to bomb resources above 100....so yes, Tarakan will be a major objective, but at this stage i need to train my crews a bit so better to bomb Timor AFs which are closer to Darwin...

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(in reply to okami)
Post #: 457
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 1:06:09 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		Ah, forgot to say...Trollelite says he has to do some homeworks...so no turns untill friday...
Will have plenty of time for strategical thoughts

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(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 458
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 1:09:44 PM   
okami


Posts: 404
Joined: 5/23/2007
Status: offline 		You are playing 160 so your B17E are practically immune to fighters. Put them at Manila say all of them. Try one bombing run against resources not oil at Tarakan at minimum attitude and see the result. The skill of the pilots does not matter that much in mass raids. Try it as a test and if you don't like the results move on. But you own it to yourself to see the results I think you will be surpriesed. Also each resource lost costs 1000 supplies to repair which is worth more than a damage or sunk AK.

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 459
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 1:16:48 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: okami

You are playing 160 so your B17E are practically immune to fighters. Put them at Manila say all of them. Try one bombing run against resources not oil at Tarakan at minimum attitude and see the result. The skill of the pilots does not matter that much in mass raids. Try it as a test and if you don't like the results move on. But you own it to yourself to see the results I think you will be surpriesed. Also each resource lost costs 1000 supplies to repair which is worth more than a damage or sunk AK.


Thx Okami. The point is that i'm using only 12 B-17Ds at Manila, because i downgraded all the other groups to B-25 and B-26 in order to burn less supplies and to free some B-17s for the Bombing campaign on Kwalajein.
When i said Tarakan i made a mistake. I wanted to say Kendari. From Darwin i'll try to bomb Kendari as soon as i can master some more base forces in Darwin and some more B-17s.
Anyway at this stage of the war my problem isn't really to destroy his resources. I need to keep his attention focused here in the PI, just to give some more time to my invasion TFs in the MArshalls...
Consider also that with India in his hands he's not going to have any real resources problems....his problem will be to bring the res back to Japan if i hold the PI and keep there my Air forces!

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(in reply to okami)
Post #: 460
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 1:45:44 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
However i've lost nearly 80 ships during these days near Karachi...which is quite a lot!!


Never fear G.H., I tried to add them up once but never finished the count. Suffice it to say the allies probably have well over 5,000 AK's in CHS, so your losses will be made up soon enough. Whether or not you can make them up before Karachi runs out of supply though, I don't know.

You should be able to run some fast transport missions in with your DD’s and CL’s if you hug the north map edge and keep the number of ships in each task force very small so Japanese search air has a hard time spotting them. Of course KB has to leave the theatre first before you can try a few of these runs to see how effective Japanese anti-shipping is in the Arabian Sea waters. My guess is he won't leave many naval bombers in India once the Marshal op gets underway.

Your Tankers are much rarer than the AK’s though, so stuff them in port at Aden and leave them there until you’ve re-opened the shipping lanes later in the war and made the journey to Karachi risk free again.

Jim



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(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 461
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 2:02:52 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
However i've lost nearly 80 ships during these days near Karachi...which is quite a lot!!


Never fear G.H., I tried to add them up once but never finished the count. Suffice it to say the allies probably have well over 5,000 AK's in CHS, so your losses will be made up soon enough. Whether or not you can make them up before Karachi runs out of supply though, I don't know.

You should be able to run some fast transport missions in with your DD’s and CL’s if you hug the north map edge and keep the number of ships in each task force very small so Japanese search air has a hard time spotting them. Of course KB has to leave the theatre first before you can try a few of these runs to see how effective Japanese anti-shipping is in the Arabian Sea waters. My guess is he won't leave many naval bombers in India once the Marshal op gets underway.

Your Tankers are much rarer than the AK’s though, so stuff them in port at Aden and leave them there until you’ve re-opened the shipping lanes later in the war and made the journey to Karachi risk free again.

Jim




Thx Jim. Yes, i do not fear the lack of ships right now. The real question now is how will he react to the invasion of the Marshalls. Will he move back his Combined fleet? He badly needs his BBs if he wants to reduce Karachi and hope to conquer it...but doing that who's gonna stop the american fleetin the pacific????
I think he can master nearly 250 Betties right now. But he cannot place them all in India as you said. But at the same time he cannot hope to face my invasions without his best air assets....

Anyway, i've already formed at Aden few single ship-TFs that will try to run to Karachi to bring there supplies and men...The fast transport TFs are a good idea...we just have to see what he does with the KB....


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(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 462
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 2:25:51 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		So guys, i need your feedback now.
Let's try to think i'll be able to master 2000 AVs at Karachi for the final stand.
Let's imagine my OOB for it will be based upon the 7th AIF Division and the 18th UK divisions.
Let's say i'll have 3 HQs there, along with 5 forts and the urban hex.
How much will it be possible to hold? With 400,000 supplies...
Do you think will be worth to DEFEND Malir or not?

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(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 463
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 2:31:44 PM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
However i've lost nearly 80 ships during these days near Karachi...which is quite a lot!!


Never fear G.H., I tried to add them up once but never finished the count. Suffice it to say the allies probably have well over 5,000 AK's in CHS...

You're a bit off. CHS has 51 different Allied AK classes with 2009 ships (without Soviet freighters). The total hauling capacity of 8.505.900 tons.

... and no, I didn't count them manually.

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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 2:49:42 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		192 between AKs and APs Lost..... luckly my shipping capabilities in the pacific are completely intact.
27 TKs/AOs Lost
23 Subs
30 MSW/MLs
....





< Message edited by Gen.Hoepner -- 12/24/2007 3:02:05 PM >

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Post #: 465
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 2:51:20 PM   
Yava


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Ah, forgot to say...Trollelite says he has to do some homeworks...so no turns untill friday...
Will have plenty of time for strategical thoughts


I still don't see the point in his strategy so far, loosing so many planes with the most experienced pilots at this point of the war and in such a place is a waste.

He did not manage to sink anything of importance and the RAF is still in the air so to say. Maybe he wants to eleminate the Brits to take care of China and do not really take care of the outer Pacific perimiter?? Hust bunker himself around the continent??

If so slow him down and make him bleed as long as possible.

It would be great if he moved the Combined Fleet to the Marshalls, it shall give you some time and rest in the Karachi region, at least from the sea, and meanwhile he shall [be dependant only on Army pilots which are probably a bit tired and lower on morale from what I read.

I would try to strenghten and hold Karachi to tie his forces over there.. but that is your plan already

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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 3:11:47 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yava


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Ah, forgot to say...Trollelite says he has to do some homeworks...so no turns untill friday...
Will have plenty of time for strategical thoughts


I still don't see the point in his strategy so far, loosing so many planes with the most experienced pilots at this point of the war and in such a place is a waste.

He did not manage to sink anything of importance and the RAF is still in the air so to say. Maybe he wants to eleminate the Brits to take care of China and do not really take care of the outer Pacific perimiter?? Hust bunker himself around the continent??

If so slow him down and make him bleed as long as possible.

It would be great if he moved the Combined Fleet to the Marshalls, it shall give you some time and rest in the Karachi region, at least from the sea, and meanwhile he shall [be dependant only on Army pilots which are probably a bit tired and lower on morale from what I read.

I would try to strenghten and hold Karachi to tie his forces over there.. but that is your plan already


I really do not see how he can send now the combined fleet to the Marshalls...it will take him 4 weeks, at least, using tons of precious fuel and when he'll arrive he'll already find enemy bases full of planes...
No, i really think he's going for the final run in India, once he committed....i wouldn't do anything else at this point...


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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 3:15:03 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG
CHS has 51 different Allied AK classes with 2009 ships (without Soviet freighters). The total hauling capacity of 8.505.900 tons.



Well losing 192 ships is nearly 10% of his AK fleet for the entire war then, that’s a lot worse than I thought since most of his AK's don't arrive till much later. 2000 AK ships seems a bit low for the entire game, perhaps they should make allied AK's respawnable with a 6 month respawn delay. At least the late war classes that come online in 1943 should be I think.

Jim

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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 3:19:32 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


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Status: offline 		However i still have 70 AP/AKs at Aden...so i'm still able to bring to Karachi what i need if the Channell gets open...

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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 3:24:02 PM   
VSWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG
CHS has 51 different Allied AK classes with 2009 ships (without Soviet freighters). The total hauling capacity of 8.505.900 tons.



Well losing 192 ships is nearly 10% of his AK fleet for the entire war then, that’s a lot worse than I thought since most of his AK's don't arrive till much later. 2000 AK ships seems a bit low for the entire game, perhaps they should make allied AK's respawnable with a 6 month respawn delay. At least the late war classes that come online in 1943 should be I think.

Jim

It's really nothing to worry about.

Assuming an Allied player loses not a single AK in a CHS game, he would have 1.870.710 tons of AK capacity at the end of 1941.

In 1942, he receives 1.182.190 additional tons of AK capacity.
In 1943 another 1.866.160 tons.
1944: +1.964.200
1945: +1.622.730

You can see that the Allied player receives the capacity of his AK fleet in 1941 every year.

Also, keep in mind that many of the AKs Gen. Hoepner has lost so far those small ships that are scattered in the DEI and the Philippines. The average AKs he'll receive (Large AK (Allies), Large AK (US), Liberty class,...) will be a lot larger than the average AK in 1941.

AK/AP losses shouldn't be measured in number of ships, but in capacity - especially in CHS, where all those small transport classes will make your situation look worse than it really is.

< Message edited by VSWG -- 12/24/2007 3:27:58 PM >

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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 3:27:37 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG
CHS has 51 different Allied AK classes with 2009 ships (without Soviet freighters). The total hauling capacity of 8.505.900 tons.



Well losing 192 ships is nearly 10% of his AK fleet for the entire war then, that’s a lot worse than I thought since most of his AK's don't arrive till much later. 2000 AK ships seems a bit low for the entire game, perhaps they should make allied AK's respawnable with a 6 month respawn delay. At least the late war classes that come online in 1943 should be I think.

Jim

It's really nothing to worry about.

Assuming an Allied player loses not a single AK in a CHS game, he would have 1.870.710 tons of AK capacity at the end of 1941.

In 1942, he receives 1.182.190 additional tons of AK capacity.
In 1943 another 1.866.160 tons.
1944: +1.964.200
1945: +1.622.730

You can see that the Allied player receives the capacity of his AK fleet in 1941 every year.

Also, keep in mind that many of the AKs Gen. Hoepner has lost so far those small ships that are scattered in the DEI and the Philippines. The average AKs he'll receive (Large AK (Allies), Large AK (US), Liberty class,...) will be a lot larger than the average AK in 1941


That's sounds pretty interesting...thx

Let's see now how many ships i will lose in the Marshalls...i expect to lose at least 2 BBs , few DDs and maybe the 10% of my AKs/APs.... hope to save my CVs tough


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Post #: 471
RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 3:33:01 PM   
VSWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

However i still have 70 AP/AKs at Aden...so i'm still able to bring to Karachi what i need if the Channell gets open...

That's probably too much. In 1942 you'll receive 60 AKs in Aden alone. My advice would be to evacuate some large and slow AKs to the US (if you still can), and keep the small and fast AKs for your supply runs to Karachi.

BTW, I wouldn't try to defend Malir, too. Retreat everything into Karachi, otherwise he will split your forces.

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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 3:42:44 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG
In 1942, he receives 1.182.190 additional tons of AK capacity.
In 1943 another 1.866.160 tons.
1944: +1.964.200
1945: +1.622.730


Thanks for the fascinating insights VSWG, I’ve posted to the AE naval thread about possibly making some of the larger class AK’s respawnable. Do you have a similar count for Japan’s AK fleet and its lift capacity in CHS?

Those 60 AK’s he gets over 1942 at Aden can easily be lost in just a few raids in WitP, I think the allies need the ability to maintain a minimum lift capacity for the end of the war. By making some of the AK’s respawnable, you guarantee that a very successful first few years by Japan doesn’t cripple the allies ability in 44 onwards to keep supplies flowing to the front.

After all, if it takes 2 month to get there, it takes another 2 months to get back, so assuming you have a lift capacity of only 4 mil tons in 1944, that’s a grand total of 12 mil to run the entire war in the Pacific. The allies can/will burn through a lot more than 12 mil tons a year by 44. And a lot of the places you need to supply by 44 are a lot further than 2 months out.

Jim


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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 3:48:55 PM   
Elladan

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 8/18/2005
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline 		With 70 AK/AP in Aden and additional 60 in 1942 you have more than enough for your needs in Indian Ocean area. Pacific fleet is intact, so I don't see a reason to worry.
Malir is not worth defending at this stage, it's clear terrain, easy to flank, so you will lose whatever you put there rather quickly. Better to bunker in Karachi. With 2000 AV, some of them elite, you can expect to hold at least until your supplies dry. For this matter it's more important to be able to constantly bring even small amounts than to have a big stockpile, which you will find shrinks very quickly when he begins the siege. Even if he could bring enough force there, for which he would need some troops from China methinks, it will take long months. And he will have to keep most of his army/fleet/air there to prevent any relief attempts. A lot of opportunities for you there.
How many subs do you have in India area and how many could you send there in short time? They could prove to be invaluable as blockade runners for Karachi.

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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 3:58:47 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan
With 2000 AV, some of them elite, you can expect to hold at least until your supplies dry.


Karachi produces 6,000 supplies a month even if Japan occupies the hex, so I doubt it'll fall even if supplies go into the red. Japan simply won't be able to attack often enough to get supplies to totally dry up. And as seen in the second to last attack at Manila in my AAR, even with just 900 supplies at the base and no supply in the units themselves, my units still fought well. It wasn’t until supplies were at zero that Manila finally fell.

He will need to try and run the blockade to get a surplus of supplies at Karachi once in a while so disablements can be repaired to keep his units in fighting trim. But I don’t think it’s worth sending all his subs, they can do a lot more damage interdicting Japanese supply convoys to India.

Japan will need a lot of supplies to keep offensive ops going in India over an extended period, and there are several choke points these convoys need to run through. Clog those choke points with subs and they should see good hunting.

Jim


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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 4:17:35 PM   
Elladan

 

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quote:

Karachi produces 6,000 supplies a month

I'm not familiar with this scenario but in this case Karachi is safe in my opinion. Japan can't starve it and you can always bring some more troops there with blockade runners or subs.
I have tried sieging Karachi in stock once, wasn't able to finish it even with most of China Expeditionary Army as aid. Coupled with all BBs nuking it on daily basis and hundreds of bombers on the run. It's a pain I tell you.

quote:

But I don’t think it’s worth sending all his subs, they can do a lot more damage interdicting Japanese supply convoys to India.

True, but using some of big American subs to bring supplies and troops to Karachi is not a bad idea either. They won't do much harm with dud torpedoes anyway.

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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 7:40:09 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

quote:

Karachi produces 6,000 supplies a month

I'm not familiar with this scenario but in this case Karachi is safe in my opinion. Japan can't starve it and you can always bring some more troops there with blockade runners or subs.
I have tried sieging Karachi in stock once, wasn't able to finish it even with most of China Expeditionary Army as aid. Coupled with all BBs nuking it on daily basis and hundreds of bombers on the run. It's a pain I tell you.

quote:

But I don’t think it’s worth sending all his subs, they can do a lot more damage interdicting Japanese supply convoys to India.

True, but using some of big American subs to bring supplies and troops to Karachi is not a bad idea either. They won't do much harm with dud torpedoes anyway.


I disagree here. He can master 9,000 AVs, well experienced and supported by let's say 300/400 bombers,plus the 4 BBs he has at hands right now. Once the final siege at Karachi is started it will be a difficult task to kepp the brits alive.

However i have 10 subs at Aden., most of which are under R&R...and using them to bring supplies is a waste imho. They can bring...let's say 200 supplies, using all of them...completely useless.
I have 12 more subs operating from Manila where i managed to sneak unseen an AS...they can do much more damage here!
All the other subs are operating in the pacific, supporting the invasion.

Anyway i'll try to use some AKs to bring supplies to Karachi...they'll be sacrificed for a good cause, but once the siege will begin no more men will be sent to Karachi, at least not untill the combined fleet is in India.

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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/24/2007 11:36:41 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns



Japan will need a lot of supplies to keep offensive ops going in India over an extended period, and there are several choke points these convoys need to run through. Clog those choke points with subs and they should see good hunting.

Jim



Sure of that Jim?
I really think that owning the whole indian continent will give Japanese Division a kind of autharky (sp??) in terms of supplies. There are many resources in india that generate supplies so i think the Japanese Armies will be self-suffient.
But again he will need vessels to bring all those resources back to Japan...we're already at the mid of Feb 42 and Japan in CHS has at start resources only for 3 months, then its war economy will stop...so he will need to bring res back home...and asap!! That's where my PI position becomes crucial!

Anyway, MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL and to YOUR FAMILIES.
May the God of War bless you with victory and glory


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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/25/2007 12:18:16 AM   
ny59giants


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Status: offline 		India is notorious in WitP of getting multiple days of RAIN, so you can use it to run in larger TF to resupply Karachi.

Think about using your subs to mine hexes 4, 5 and 6 hexes away from Karachi and towards Bombay. He will probably do a fair amount of bombardment runs to try to wear down your defenses. You may not get many hits with them being ocean hexes, but he will be surprised.

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 12/25/2007 1:05:42 AM >

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RE: KB in the Gulf of Aden! - 12/25/2007 4:11:01 AM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
Sure of that Jim?
I really think that owning the whole indian continent will give Japanese Division a kind of autharky (sp??) in terms of supplies.


I think India’s supply production (assuming he captures it intact) is 4,040 resources and 90 oil centers. He has plenty of HI (2,250), so the oil is the limiting factor on HI usage. Without imports he can produce 4,580 supplies a day minus base damage.

Also Karachi has 400 resources and 50 oil centers, so that leaves him only 40 oil centers producing 240 oil a day and 3,640 resources producing an equal number of supplies. Karachi’s 350 HI reduces the 2,250 figure to 1900.

So without help he produces a max of 3,640 + 240 = 3,880 supply a day. I seriously doubt he’ll be anywhere near 100% though, so it’s more likely he’ll be producing less than 2,000 a day.

I don’t think he can run a huge offensive off that amount of supply, but I’m not sure. What’s the daily supply usage for a 9,000 AV stack of Japanese troops? Double that for combat needs and then add air and naval needs and I bet he needs about 6,000 supplies a day to maintain offensive ops.

But this is all speculation, since I’m not aware of his actual needs. I know my 1100 AV stack at Manila had a monthly consumption of about 7,000 before combat, double that to 14,000 with combat. Now multiply that by eight and you get 1100 * 8 = 8,800 AV needing 56,000 supplies a month just for standing still, and 112,000 for combat ops.

Very crude calculation I admit, but you get the picture. My 3,880 figure above only produces 116,400 supplies a month. Barley enough to feed the land army, the air arm will need just as much if not more depending on how intensive his operations are.

Then add in naval needs and replacement elements and repairing disabled equipment and the supply needs go through the roof.

Jim



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