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RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

 
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RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/27/2007 3:07:00 PM   
marcusm

 

Posts: 776
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Göteborg/Sweden
Status: offline 		And actually. If I were a Dane I would have prefered København instead of
Copenhagen. Again, other cities are localised so why not these?

I don't think "commonly used" is a good excuse. Accuracy should always be the rule of thumb.

This Google Map explains how I would have liked the naming convention. Just for fun, search for Gothenburg and it will first point out Gothenburg USA, shows why it shouldn't be used, confuses American tourists ;).






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by marcusm -- 12/27/2007 3:13:22 PM >

(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 391
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/27/2007 3:51:07 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Well, if I believe this page, if we went for Göteborg, we should have to go for a whole lot of other changes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_exonyms

Antwerpen for Antwerp
Ammochostos-Gazimağusa for Famagusta (Cyprus)
Praha for Prague
København for Copenhagen
Hannover for Hanover
Köln for Cologne
München for Munich
Nürnberg for Nuremberg
Rhein for Rhine River
Athina for Athens
Rodos for Rhodes
Firenze for Florence
Genova for Genoa
Livorno for Leghorn
Milano for Milan
Napoli for Naples
Roma for Rome
Sardegna for Sardinia
Sicilia for Sicily
Siracusa for Syracuse
Torino for Turin
Venezia for Venice
Warszawa for Warsaw
Açores for Azores
Lisboa for Lisbon
Bucureşti for Bucharest
Arkhangelsk for Archangel
Moskva for Moscow
Sevilla for Seville
Zaragoza for Saragossa
Bern for Berne
Zürich for Zurich
Gelibolu for Gallipoli
İzmir for Smyrna
Üsküdar for Scutari

Even the countries would have their names needing to be changed.

I agree some names on the map are localized, like Aachen instead of Aix-la-Chapelle or Porto instead of Oporto, but if I were do decide a change it would be to use the English exonyms were ever possible and not the local names, that only the locals are familiar with.
My birth place is Marseille (French name), and it's not problem for me to have it spelled Marseiles (English exonym) on the MWiF map.

This said, the names are moddable, you can change them in a simple CSV file.

(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 392
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/27/2007 4:22:46 PM   
hakon

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline 		This is what webster gives when you search for Gothenburg:

http://www.webster.com/dictionary/gothenburg

Main Entry: Gö·te·borg
Pronunciation: \ˌyœ-tə-ˈbȯr-ē\
Variant(s): or Goth·en·burg \ˈgä-thən-ˌbərg\
Function: geographical name
city & port SW Sweden on the Kattegat population 474,921

I'm pretty sure that if it's in webster, it's official English, even though it's currently considered a variant. Note that Gothenburg in the US doesn't even show up. Furthermore, I am pretty sure that Gothenburg in the US is indeed named after Göteborg.

I seem to recall that the localized vs anglicized discussion has already been done (a year or two ago), and I seem to remember that rules of thumb similar the following were to be used:
- The name chosen should be the one most easily recognized by the majority of wif players (if possible)
- For places that have changed name, the one most commonly used during WW2 should usually be chosen. (Ie Siam, not Thailand, Peking not Bejing)
- The names used in the board game should not be changed without a very good reason.
- Since the game is in English, names should usually be anglicized, if it doesn't contradict the first rule. Exceptions to this rule are allowed when creating richer "flavour", or when inherited from the board game.

Does anyone have a more accurate list of rules?

Anyway, if you want to localize more names, it should be done to a lot of names the map. Ie Rome->Roma, Vienna->Wien, Venice->Venezia, Milan->Milano, Lyons->Lyon, Cologne->Köln, Munich -> München, Warsaw->Warzawa, Moscow->Moskva, Kiev->Kyiv, Athens->Athina, Alexandria->Al-Iskandariya etc etc, and I'm not sure we want that?

Edit : Seems like Patrice beat me to my last point :)



< Message edited by hakon -- 12/27/2007 4:26:13 PM >

(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 393
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/27/2007 5:10:34 PM   
jesperpehrson


Posts: 1052
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline 		I am from Gothenburg and I am totally ok with MWIF using the "english version" of the name. It is not only used by people on the street but also by officials. Gothenburg is fine!

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 394
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/27/2007 7:10:17 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		Having an Anglicised version of a city's name does not, in and of itself, turn WiF:FE/MWiF into a "fantasy" game. That kind of rhetorical over exaggeration is plain sophistry, which is a poor way of arguing a point.

At the end of the day, Patrice's point stands: the city names can be altered at will, so if you would rather use Göteborg or Moskva or either the Hebrew or Arabic name for Jerusalem, you can. Whatever floats your boat.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to jesperpehrson)
Post #: 395
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/27/2007 8:06:46 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marcusm

And actually. If I were a Dane I would have prefered København instead of
Copenhagen. Again, other cities are localised so why not these?

I don't think "commonly used" is a good excuse. Accuracy should always be the rule of thumb.

This Google Map explains how I would have liked the naming convention. Just for fun, search for Gothenburg and it will first point out Gothenburg USA, shows why it shouldn't be used, confuses American tourists ;).






Marcusm,

I hope you will realize from the comments to your posts, that we take your concerns very seriously. By we, I speak not only for myself and Patrice but also all the regular readers of the MWIF forum.

Now, in fact, the majority doesn't agree with your preference for a name change to Goteburg (sorry, I do not have the ability to generate non-standard English characters). Their reasons are presented fairly clearly I believe.

We have had this discussion with Spanish speakers about names used for Spanish cities and with Finnish speakers who dislike the use of the Swedish variants for their city names. I do not believe we made any changes in response to those requests. We did make a lot of changes to names of cities in China, but all those cities had anglicized names to start with, since they are not shown using the Chinese character set. Nor are the name of the Japanese cities written using any of their character sets.

I have delegated decisions about the map to Patrice who (on his own time) has done a ton of work on the world map, especially in Scandinavia. The WIF FE maps for Scandinavia we started from presented a lot of problems geographically and dozens of people were involved in transforming a badly distorted map into something closer to reality. We made those decisions by group consensus whenever possible and by majority rule when we couldn't get unanimity.

And that is the philosophy I am using for most decisions concerning MWIF. We ask for help and favor the opinions of knowledgeable people and/or those with the strongest reasons.

Personal experience with geographic locales carried/carries a lot of weight in our decision making. Which is one reason we take your conern seriously. And yet we still come to the conclusion that the anglicized variant on the name of your home city is the best match with how cities, rivers, countries, and other map locations are named in MWIF around the world.
============
This substitution of your own choice of names will work in most cases, but as the programmer I must point out that there are some city names that can not be changed because that would affect the code. Automatic victory cities are one example. And also cities that have reserves or city bsed volunteeers associated with them. For instance, the Leningrad reserve unit can only set up in Leningrad. If you change the name to St. Petersburg, the program won't know where the unit should set up.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 396
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 1:36:02 AM   
marcusm

 

Posts: 776
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Göteborg/Sweden
Status: offline 		Because Composer. This is not an English city, never was never will be. Argument stands.
It is sometimes called Lilla London as well btw, would that be good on the map? How about GBG?

Froonp: There is a difference(between most examples), those cities do in fact have "international" double names. Göteborg never had (except people in the street then).

Göteborg is a trademark. It is the name used when advertising this city(contrary to Moscow, Rome and Cologne for instance). The name everyone here (riktiga Göteborgare, not moved in Stockholmers)
uses. Whenever the term Gothenburg is used, it is used wrongly, doesn't matter if "people on the streets" uses it.

Conclusion. Hakon, Shannon etc. Please read the English text on the official homepage of Göteborg
http://www10.goteborg.se/english/

If you find Gothenburg anywhere then you have convinced yourself ;).

I have not anywhere said that people doesn't use the term Gothenburg. I am just saying it isn't official and
I mean anywhere in official papers. We can all make mistakes it's just about correcting them. Hence I am being helpful here.

People call New York NYC as well. Does World in Flames use NYC as a term? How about Washington(the state) instead
of Washington D.C? See my point. Popular use doesn't make it right.

Worst case I will just mod the stuff myself.



< Message edited by marcusm -- 12/28/2007 1:43:35 AM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 397
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 1:38:27 AM   
marcusm

 

Posts: 776
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Göteborg/Sweden
Status: offline 		As I also said btw. It is not the end of the world for me, I can mod such things for my own sake (AAR:s at least).
I am sure this will be a great game anyway.



(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 398
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 8:19:12 AM   
hakon

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline 		marcusm:

It doesn't really matter what is official in Sweden/Swedish. What matters, is what is official in England/English. WiF is not an official diplomatic document where diplomatic etiquette has to be observed, but closer to something like a novel. And just like a novel, the game itself has a native language. And this native language is not Swedish, but English.

And since Gothenburg clearly is an official exonym for Göteborg IN ENGLISH (pardon the shouting), it is also appropriate for WiF.

By the way, from my limited knowledge of swedish history, it is not clear that Gothenburg is without basis in history, either. While the word göte (English geat, i believe) should not be mistaken for the word goth or got (like in Gotland), the göte (geat) ethnic group have afaik considered themselves (quite officially) to be a subgroup of the goth people throughout much of known history.

Articles related to the origin of the goths:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza

Note that in the Scandza section, the geat are called geat-goths, which could help explain the origin of the word Gothenburg, and that also indicates that the source is not necessarily a case of mixing up the words goth with göte because of linguistic simmilarity.

(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 399
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 12:20:56 PM   
jesperpehrson


Posts: 1052
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marcusm

Froonp: There is a difference(between most examples), those cities do in fact have "international" double names. Göteborg never had (except people in the street then).

Göteborg is a trademark. It is the name used when advertising this city(contrary to Moscow, Rome and Cologne for instance). The name everyone here (riktiga Göteborgare, not moved in Stockholmers)
uses. Whenever the term Gothenburg is used, it is used wrongly, doesn't matter if "people on the streets" uses it.

I have not anywhere said that people doesn't use the term Gothenburg. I am just saying it isn't official and
I mean anywhere in official papers. We can all make mistakes it's just about correcting them. Hence I am being helpful here.



I browsed the web for 5 minutes and found that both Saeve and Landvetter Airport, the Gothenburg Restaurants association, the official touristinformation for Sweden(visitsweden.com) plus of course any number of companies use Gothenburg as well as Goteborg when writing in english(i am abroad so no correct spelling :-P ).

It is not exactly a huge issue either way but to deny that Gothenburg is being used by many different people, from the street to the official, is denying reality. If I recall correctly it was also used in Friidrotts EM 1992.





(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 400
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 6:17:44 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Well I think all the names should be in the Hopi language (unknown to Japan in WWII). That way Japan won't be able to read maps and will get lost on the way to Pearl Harbor.

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to jesperpehrson)
Post #: 401
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 6:51:26 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		It would actually be kind of cool if the Chinese & Japanese city names were in their actual character sets... unreadable for many (and hence unmarketable), but cool...

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 402
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 7:30:11 PM   
marcusm

 

Posts: 776
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Göteborg/Sweden
Status: offline 		It may not be a huge issue to you capitan but for us real Göteborgare it is. Those who go to Änglarnas matches for instance ;).

http://www.lfv.se/templates/LFV_AirportStartPage_Arlanda____37183.aspx

Göteborg Landvetter Aiport.

Try to avoid the 08 made pages and stick to Göteborg based (like www.goteborg.se) and you will have the truth of it.

Gothenburg is called so to confuse the AIK/DIF "people", so they get lost(permanently if we are lucky).

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_i_friidrott_1995
5th IAAF WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS IN ATHLETICS GÖTEBORG 1995.


So what if there is a picture that Göteborg is called Gothenburg? Isn't it right to try and educate people then? I am proud of being a "Göteborgare" and I am not ashamed of calling myself a local patriot. I would never move to Stockholm (Kungsbacka is about my limit).

Actually I did live in Belfast once. They had situations where names were different depending if you were Catholic or Protestant(Ulster Scot etc). Luckily we don't have that problem here.

< Message edited by marcusm -- 12/28/2007 7:35:48 PM >

(in reply to jesperpehrson)
Post #: 403
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 7:36:27 PM   
marcusm

 

Posts: 776
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Göteborg/Sweden
Status: offline 		Still want to stress that this in no way will stop me from buying this game.
This is just a matter of education.


Btw. Is everyone aware that Skåne is called Scania in English? If we are to be co-herent I mean ;).

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%A5ne

< Message edited by marcusm -- 12/28/2007 7:40:13 PM >

(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 404
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 7:57:41 PM   
marcusm

 

Posts: 776
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Göteborg/Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

marcusm:

It doesn't really matter what is official in Sweden/Swedish. What matters, is what is official in England/English. WiF is not an official diplomatic document where diplomatic etiquette has to be observed, but closer to something like a novel. And just like a novel, the game itself has a native language. And this native language is not Swedish, but English.

And since Gothenburg clearly is an official exonym for Göteborg IN ENGLISH (pardon the shouting), it is also appropriate for WiF.

By the way, from my limited knowledge of swedish history, it is not clear that Gothenburg is without basis in history, either. While the word göte (English geat, i believe) should not be mistaken for the word goth or got (like in Gotland), the göte (geat) ethnic group have afaik considered themselves (quite officially) to be a subgroup of the goth people throughout much of known history.

Articles related to the origin of the goths:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza

Note that in the Scandza section, the geat are called geat-goths, which could help explain the origin of the word Gothenburg, and that also indicates that the source is not necessarily a case of mixing up the words goth with göte because of linguistic simmilarity.



This is what I have been trying to say all the time(even to Norwegians).
Göteborg is official in English, Hutu, Zulu, Swazi, Chinese, Turkmen, Norwegian(believe it or not), Turkish, Hindu, Martian and not to forget, French.

It's GÖTAR not GUTAR. GUTE = GOTLAND. Has ZERO to do with Götar (nevermind the speculation about Goth = Götar). Västergötland is the cradle of Sweden. We owe nothing to nobody. It is exactly the type of nonsense the use of Gothenburg leads to. Somebody even wrote Gothenborg. At least we could assimilate those hopeless Stockholmers and make people out of them(perhaps).

Forget Wikipedia and read our history in www.goteborg.se, written by actual experts, not random Internet visitors.


< Message edited by marcusm -- 12/28/2007 8:01:41 PM >

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 405
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 9:29:54 PM   
Peter Stauffenberg


Posts: 403
Joined: 2/24/2006
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marcusm
[This is what I have been trying to say all the time(even to Norwegians).
Göteborg is official in English, Hutu, Zulu, Swazi, Chinese, Turkmen, Norwegian(believe it or not), Turkish, Hindu, Martian and not to forget, French.


In Norway we don't write Göteborg, but Gøteborg. It's slightly different.

I don't think it's necessary to make a special case for Gothenburg and localize this name. Patrice is right, if we start changing some names we need to change them all to localized versions. E. g. Moskva instead of Moscow. But by doing so you add the risk of confusing the majority of the players, i. e. the English speaking players.

So I think it's fine the way it is now. If you look at maps from Britain or USA you see Copenhagen and Gothenburg and not København and Göteborg.

What could be helpful is if a reference to the file where the city names are stored so people can alter the names to localized version if they want to. Those names that can't be changed should be listed so we don't create game bugs by localizing city names.



< Message edited by Borger Borgersen -- 12/28/2007 9:31:12 PM >

(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 406
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 9:55:51 PM   
bredsjomagnus

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:


Is everyone aware that Skåne is called Scania in English?


I wasn´t.
So today I have learned that I am a Scania man (Helsingborg för övrigt). Nice.

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)
Post #: 407
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 10:11:31 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
What could be helpful is if a reference to the file where the city names are stored so people can alter the names to localized version if they want to. Those names that can't be changed should be listed so we don't create game bugs by localizing city names.

Easy, it looks like that.

511 is the ID
37 is a hex coordinate (X)
41 is the other hex coordinate (Y)
18 is a coordinate for the place of the name in the hex (X, from 0 to 67)
38 is the other coordinate for the place of the name in the hex (Y from 0 to 75)
16 is the city marker position
6 is the port symbol position
2 is the factory position
0 is the resource position
0 is the color code of the text
10 is the size of the text
Gothenburg is the label itself




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)
Post #: 408
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/28/2007 10:14:52 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		And the corresponding map view.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Froonp -- 12/28/2007 10:37:48 PM >

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 409
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/29/2007 12:14:31 AM   
Toed

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 8/5/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		On the recent Gothenburg issue...
While I understand marcusm's need to rectify the map. I myself have made a few pointers on issue of the Swedish map including the use of some english names. However when it comes to this matter I feel that Gothenburg is not a big mistake. Or perhaps not even a mistake at all. Since most people that is going to play the game, and actually know the city exists, probably don't speak Swedish and I have never seen or heard a englishspeaking person call Göteborg anything but Gothenburg.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 410
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/29/2007 2:05:19 AM   
jesperpehrson


Posts: 1052
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline 		wooooo woooo, i am a fan of IFK as well and I go to games as well. I am as real as they come but Gothenburg (or even the slightly worse Gotemburgo in spanish) is fine by me.

Go blue and white!

< Message edited by capitan -- 12/29/2007 2:06:57 AM >

(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 411
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/29/2007 4:30:06 AM   
ahlner

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 10/7/2006
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		To continue with the perhaps trivial issue of name spelling I can add that correct Finnish (and English) spelling of Finnish minor port "Hankø" is Hanko (Swedish spelling is Hangö).

Another name that could be questioned is Vyborg that is the Russian name for Finnish minor port Viipuri. Since the map pictures the 1939 borders, at the time Vyborg still is Finnish, perhaps the Finnish (and English) name Viipuri would be more correct to use. Swedish spelling for Viipuri is Viborg.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 412
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/29/2007 4:39:51 PM   
hakon

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline 		Both Gothenburg and Goteborg are official in English, as Webster clearly shows.

As a sidenote, I went to see the Swedish movie "Arn" yesterday, and in the movie, the protagonist (who was from vestgötaland) chose to call himself "Arn de Gothia".

I guess the author must be a stockholmare......

(in reply to ahlner)
Post #: 413
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 1/26/2009 9:31:39 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

6th and last in the series.

As I always say, "You put in a thousand hours of work, and you can made something that's not half bad." In this case, several hundred hours, in aggregate, by dozens of people.






Since Steve said it was last call on map changes and Peter is working on setup for Sweden I looked on the map of Sweden. It looks very nice and I know it is late for changes but two things looked a bit weird to me. Sweden seems to need a bit more of railway and Northern part of Sweden looks a bit to much forrested and in need of some swamp instead. A large portion of the far north of Sweden is covered by bogs and other types of wetlands.

Railways in Sweden first. The last part of the railway net was completed 1938 and the net then had 16900 km of railway. In the 1950s some of the railways was "abandoned".

I found a map over railways active today. As far as I know all of them was completed before 1938 so it should have been even more rail in 1938. The nice thing about the map is that you can click on a specific railway and see its history and when it was completed. So go to following site for some more facts. Unfortunately in Swedish.
http://www.jarnvag.net/banguide/karta.asp

My suggestions for changes will follow soon.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Orm -- 1/26/2009 9:42:48 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 414
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 1/26/2009 10:39:04 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

6th and last in the series.

As I always say, "You put in a thousand hours of work, and you can made something that's not half bad." In this case, several hundred hours, in aggregate, by dozens of people.






Since Steve said it was last call on map changes and Peter is working on setup for Sweden I looked on the map of Sweden. It looks very nice and I know it is late for changes but two things looked a bit weird to me. Sweden seems to need a bit more of railway and Northern part of Sweden looks a bit to much forrested and in need of some swamp instead. A large portion of the far north of Sweden is covered by bogs and other types of wetlands.

Railways in Sweden first. The last part of the railway net was completed 1938 and the net then had 16900 km of railway. In the 1950s some of the railways was "abandoned".

I found a map over railways active today. As far as I know all of them was completed before 1938 so it should have been even more rail in 1938. The nice thing about the map is that you can click on a specific railway and see its history and when it was completed. So go to following site for some more facts. Unfortunately in Swedish.
http://www.jarnvag.net/banguide/karta.asp

My suggestions for changes will follow soon.




Be careful, as this is the same as for the ports.
In Europe, every coastal hex would deserve to be a minor port.
Every hex would also deserve to contain a railway in the 6 directions.
Now, you must keep in mind that these railways that are on the WiF map are those main railways that allowed massive troop transporting, and massive resource transporting. Not all railways are depicted.

Here too, we prefered to stay conservative in regards to what the original designers did, even if we redrawn the whole Scandinavia shape, we kept basicaly the same broad details. Railways, cities & ports.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 1/26/2009 10:43:07 PM >

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 415
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 1/26/2009 11:19:11 PM   
Ullern


Posts: 1837
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline 		There are no swamps in Sweden on the WIFFE Scandinavian minimap.


(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 416
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 1/27/2009 12:38:16 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Be careful, as this is the same as for the ports.
In Europe, every coastal hex would deserve to be a minor port.
Every hex would also deserve to contain a railway in the 6 directions.
Now, you must keep in mind that these railways that are on the WiF map are those main railways that allowed massive troop transporting, and massive resource transporting. Not all railways are depicted.

Here too, we prefered to stay conservative in regards to what the original designers did, even if we redrawn the whole Scandinavia shape, we kept basicaly the same broad details. Railways, cities & ports.


I do not agree with you that every costal hex in europe deserve to be a minor port. I think it is the opposite actually. I do not belive there are many ports that are not on the map capable of anchoring and servicing (refueling etc) 4 battleships.

I appreciate that you are conservative in changing what the original designers did. I do however belive they didn't put as much effort in making the map for Sweden as they did for Finland. The terrain in northern Finland is very much alike the terrain in northern Sweden. You notice how Finland has alot of swamps and Sweden none?

The railway with the lowest capacity in Sweden (in regards to the number of trains on it at the same time would most likely be Kiruna - Narvik). Thanks to a relative of mine I actually have had the pleasure of riding in the locomotive from Kiruna to Narvik and even driving it a part of the way.

-Orm

< Message edited by Orm -- 1/27/2009 12:39:52 AM >

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 417
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 1/27/2009 1:00:13 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Be careful, as this is the same as for the ports.
In Europe, every coastal hex would deserve to be a minor port.
Every hex would also deserve to contain a railway in the 6 directions.
Now, you must keep in mind that these railways that are on the WiF map are those main railways that allowed massive troop transporting, and massive resource transporting. Not all railways are depicted.

Here too, we prefered to stay conservative in regards to what the original designers did, even if we redrawn the whole Scandinavia shape, we kept basicaly the same broad details. Railways, cities & ports.


I do not agree with you that every costal hex in europe deserve to be a minor port. I think it is the opposite actually. I do not belive there are many ports that are not on the map capable of anchoring and servicing (refueling etc) 4 battleships.

I appreciate that you are conservative in changing what the original designers did. I do however belive they didn't put as much effort in making the map for Sweden as they did for Finland. The terrain in northern Finland is very much alike the terrain in northern Sweden. You notice how Finland has alot of swamps and Sweden none?

The railway with the lowest capacity in Sweden (in regards to the number of trains on it at the same time would most likely be Kiruna - Narvik). Thanks to a relative of mine I actually have had the pleasure of riding in the locomotive from Kiruna to Narvik and even driving it a part of the way.

-Orm

I only rode on the "front end" once - from Philadelphia to Washington D.C.. I have a very vivid memory of the trip.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 418
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 1/27/2009 6:43:10 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ullern

There are no swamps in Sweden on the WIFFE Scandinavian minimap.



True, but there should be IMO.

“Swamps, Terrain, marshes and wetlands, usually in connection with the lakes or rivers. Swamp is not a common word to describe wetlands in Sweden, they are usually called bogs. Similar wetlands in other countries are referred to, however, like quagmire.

In central and northern parts of Sweden, on Gotland and in Finland, the word also refer to the same as the lake, which is evident in the name of several lakes, such as the Torneträsk(Torne swamp). Byn träsk(swamp) in Skogs Assembly in Kramfors municipality will have its name from a string of lakes and ponds in the area covered by the village swamp. The village is the only one with this name in Sweden. In Finland, 3.

Wetlands are under Wetlands the census definition (Löfroth 1991) land where water for much of the year are close in, or just above the ground surface and vegetation-covered waters.

In most cases, the vegetation used to distinguish wetlands from other land. At least 50 percent of the vegetation to be hydrophilic, ie the moisture-loving, in order to convene an area of wetland.

The main classification of wetlands in the types based on the water of origin and where the land is peat formation or not.

Wetlands are divided into marshes, beaches, marshes, bogs and other wetlands.”

Translated from Wikipedia

Check out the Satellite photoes of northern Sweden and see how much lakes, vetlands and bogs there are,

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=66.894444,20.161111&spn=0.3,0.3&q=66.894444,20.161111







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 1/27/2009 6:51:18 AM >

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(in reply to Ullern)
Post #: 419
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 2/4/2009 10:42:56 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I would like the Swedish railway net to look something like this.

During 3 years of the war some 2 million german troops were transported through Sweden. Most were wounded or soldiers on leave with the exeption of a division with weapons and ammunitions. This used up 10% of the Swedish railcapacity at its peak. The trains and railway was guarded by 15000 Swedish troops. The trains did not pass Stockholm.

-Orm




Attachment (1)

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 420
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