RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another

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RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 1:34:55 AM

Doggie

Posts: 3244
Joined: 9/19/2001
From: Under the porch
Status: offline

What's the point of having a secure driver's license when the government issues them to foreign criminals on demand?

The 9/11 hijackers all had driver's licenses. Legitimate driver's licenses, issued to them by the states in which they lived. There are more than one million illegal immigrants in North Carolina, and nearly all of them have driver's licenses or state I.D. cards. All they have to do is walk into the DMV and ask for it. If they have a warrant out for their arrest, they simply go to the U.S. funded Mexican consulate and ask for an I.D. under another name, which they use to obtain another driver's license.

A secure driver's license will do nothing to find illegal aliens when we simply give them away to anyone who asks.

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Visit the New, Improved Mad Dog's Drive Thru

(in reply to Ursa MAior)

Post #: 31

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 3:03:21 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Yohoo RH? Are you serious?
These and much stricter controlls are in place in Europe since decades, yet noone is really complaining about it. Why? Cuz they dont disturb anybody but significantly decrease the chance of illegal penetration. Dont tell me that you could simply just walk in any business building before 9/11!�Soon you can enter a fed building only if you show your ID. So what? They register your enty and check against a central database. Again so what? You only have to fear it if you have done sthg illegal, which most of us dont so why are you upset?

So what is your problem?

The problem is the right to privacy and freedom Ursa or did you not read or comprehend my post. I'm pretty sick n tired of being numbered for fricking everything. Birth certificates, drivers licenses, hell even licenses online, social security numbers, bank id numbers, numbers numbers numbers tags tags tags. Our constitution states that we are entitled to PRIVACY. Maybe you don't care about your privacy and you like to stick your nose in other peoples affairs and so does your government. That's one of the reasons we broke away from that nation in the first place. FREEDOM and RIGHTS. We caught criminals longggggg before there were ever numbers to place on them. Been doin it for 6000 years now or more as history dictates. So, I don't see this bs numbering anything more than an invasion of privacy. 666 is really already here when you can't get a job without an ID of some sort proving who you are, where you live, and who's your family. Maybe you like being tagged like a COW, I don't.

quote:

So... I would be more afraid of Neo-Fascism, Radical Patriotism, or government repression than I would the Anti-Christ.

Ahhhh but remember the Anti-Christ will be the biggest LIAR of them all and that is precisely what he/she/it wants you to believe. The Power of Christ compells you hahahaha ;)

When you think of it this way 666 makes sense of what is taking place today around the globe (the numbering of everyone for one thing). Think about this don't you have your social security number "memorized" in what? your head!! And when you present your social security number what do you use to present it? Your Hand!! ;) Even the initials of Social Security are what? S.S. well couldn't that S.S. also stand for Satans Sign?? Hrmmm. How coincedental that S. S. came about for social security when it was really to establish Satans Sign. This is something theoligians have been pondering as well. I perceive in the future that your S.S. number will be implanted as a microchip probably at birth either in the palm of ones hand or their wrists.

This system they are fixing to implement is just one step closer to 666 imho. I find it amazing that revalations is relavating pretty rapidly by todays standards. Now whether is represents the 2nd coming or not isn't really the issue I'm opposed to here. It's the numbering of everyone for control and less privacy and freedoms. I do see the day coming where you can't get a job or buy food without having the MARK (microchip in your palm or wrist). It's already half that way now getting a job. Try to get a job without some form of ID without it being general labor or doityourself types. Every place you go and "fill out an application" will REQUIRE that SS number and even other forms of ID. ;)

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 1/12/2008 3:31:02 AM >

(in reply to Ursa MAior)

Post #: 32

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 3:27:41 AM

Sarge

Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Our constitution states (and we broke away from you blokes back in 1776 remember? stomped your Asses as I recall both in 1776 and 1812) that we are entitled to PRIVACY. Maybe you don't care about your privacy and you like to stick your nose in other peoples affairs and so does your government. That's one of the reasons we broke away from that idiot nation in the first place. FREEDOM and RIGHTS.

Actually the revolted in the � Period of Neglect � due to newly imposed taxation of common goods sparked the Revolution.

Your argument would fall under the Bill of Rights Passed by Congress September 25, 1789, Ratified December 15, 1791.
The American War of Independence was never about personal liberty�s ,but indeed was a tool the Founding Fathers put into law to govern their newly founded Nation

Just saying ��.. if your going to take the sacrifice and courage out of context you should at the very least know our Nations history and its context.

_____________________________

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 33

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 3:28:36 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

Dang judge... you almost sound conservative for a change... �

Here are some words of wisdom that unfortunately we no longer heed here in the US because the protection is for our own good or worse, "it's for the children."

"As a man is said to have a right to his property, he may be equally said to have a property in his rights. Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions."-- James Madison

"It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man who knows what the law is today can guess what is will be tomorrow."-- James Madison

"The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite."-- Thomas Jefferson

"There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."-- James Madison

"We must confine ourselves to the powers described in the Constitution, and the moment we pass it, we take an arbitrary stride towards a despotic Government."-- James Jackson

"All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree."-- James Madison

"We still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping at the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretenses for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without a tribute."-- Thomas Paine

"It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress."-- Mark Twain

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."-- Thomas Paine

Wow Reiryc those are all great quotes and so true, too bad they are just words without substance for all governments have no eye for the truth or being fair to their countrymen. They merely look for the loopholes left in the constitution to enslave us even more today than yesterday. Thank goodness for death, for that is the one thing our governments cannot put their hands on, though they did make a law that suicide is illegal hahahaha baw haw haw I find that one the funniest of all.

(in reply to Reiryc)

Post #: 34

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 3:31:05 AM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
Status: offline

Excuse me but I have a drivers license and a social security card and a mortgage which contains a lot of personal information as well.

How will this be a invasion of my privacy?

BTW: I also have this old loon going through my garbage. I think he is harmless, he is just old and looking for useful stuff. I feel bad for him but is he invading my privacy? Should I take arms against him to show him I am not a sheep?

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(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 35

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 3:33:43 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Our constitution states (and we broke away from you blokes back in 1776 remember? stomped your Asses as I recall both in 1776 and 1812) that we are entitled to PRIVACY. Maybe you don't care about your privacy and you like to stick your nose in other peoples affairs and so does your government. That's one of the reasons we broke away from that idiot nation in the first place. FREEDOM and RIGHTS.

Actually the revolted in the � Period of Neglect � due to newly imposed taxation of common goods sparked the Revolution.

Your argument would fall under the Bill of Rights Passed by Congress September 25, 1789, Ratified December 15, 1791.
The American War of Independence was never about personal liberty�s ,but indeed was a tool the Founding Fathers put into law to govern their newly founded Nation

Just saying ��.. if your going to take the sacrifice and courage out of context you should at the very least know our Nations history and its context.

And there goes ole Sarge TROLLING again. I know our nations history bucko probably better than you do. I'm talking about our INDIVIDUAL rights granted not about sacrifice and courage you moron.

(in reply to Sarge)

Post #: 36

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 3:38:32 AM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Our constitution states (and we broke away from you blokes back in 1776 remember? stomped your Asses as I recall both in 1776 and 1812) that we are entitled to PRIVACY. Maybe you don't care about your privacy and you like to stick your nose in other peoples affairs and so does your government. That's one of the reasons we broke away from that idiot nation in the first place. FREEDOM and RIGHTS.

Actually the revolted in the � Period of Neglect � due to newly imposed taxation of common goods sparked the Revolution.

Your argument would fall under the Bill of Rights Passed by Congress September 25, 1789, Ratified December 15, 1791.
The American War of Independence was never about personal liberty�s ,but indeed was a tool the Founding Fathers put into law to govern their newly founded Nation

Just saying ��.. if your going to take the sacrifice and courage out of context you should at the very least know our Nations history and its context.

And there goes ole Sarge TROLLING again. I know our nations history bucko probably better than you do. I'm talking about our INDIVIDUAL rights granted not about sacrifice and courage you moron.

But I am not sure that the right of privacy in the Bill of Rights is near broad enough to cover this. I have to show ID before I get on a plane now. Boarding a plane or driving a car are not rights.

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(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 37

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 3:47:29 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
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But what I'm saying is they should be. When are they going to say we can't enter a car until ID'd is next eh? lol Some stupid computerized camara on every car or some electronical identification system you have to scan your WRIST or PALM of your hand accross to enter your own car...it's coming you wait. I think some of it is already here. ;)

quote:

BTW: I also have this old loon going through my garbage. I think he is harmless, he is just old and looking for useful stuff. I feel bad for him but is he invading my privacy? Should I take arms against him to show him I am not a sheep?

Believe it or not but rifling through or even taking your garbage is one of the EASIEST ways to steal your IDENTITY. That old loon may not be an old loon at all, but, some loon that sells any information he finds about you in your garbage to someone else who is looking for that sort of information. I hope you shread all your important and vital information that you throw away.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 1/12/2008 3:50:04 AM >

(in reply to ORANGE)

Post #: 38

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 3:49:03 AM

Sarge

Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Our constitution states (and we broke away from you blokes back in 1776 remember? stomped your Asses as I recall both in 1776 and 1812) that we are entitled to PRIVACY. Maybe you don't care about your privacy and you like to stick your nose in other peoples affairs and so does your government. That's one of the reasons we broke away from that idiot nation in the first place. FREEDOM and RIGHTS.

Actually the revolted in the � Period of Neglect � due to newly imposed taxation of common goods sparked the Revolution.

Your argument would fall under the Bill of Rights Passed by Congress September 25, 1789, Ratified December 15, 1791.
The American War of Independence was never about personal liberty�s ,but indeed was a tool the Founding Fathers put into law to govern their newly founded Nation

Just saying ��.. if your going to take the sacrifice and courage out of context you should at the very least know our Nations history and its context.

And there goes ole Sarge TROLLING again. I know our nations history bucko probably better than you do. I'm talking about our INDIVIDUAL rights granted not about sacrifice and courage you moron.

Wow,

How does one reply to such insightful debate

Here lets start again,

quote:

I'm talking about our INDIVIDUAL rights granted not about sacrifice and courage you moron

Elaborate please, What do you think grants you those � Individual rights�

_____________________________

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 39

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 3:51:23 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

Wow you're an even bigger moron than I thought you were Sarge. What an IGMO. Wow just wow at his stupidity.

There is only one thing left to do since this is such a good an interesting thread (until the TROLL Sarge appeared that is notice he adds NOTHING to the TOPIC just attacking me again...what a moron). So, GREEN DOTTED YOU ARE SARGE...bye bye tah tah. ;)

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 1/12/2008 3:52:39 AM >

(in reply to Sarge)

Post #: 40

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 3:55:22 AM

Sarge

Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Wow you're an even bigger moron than I thought you were Sarge. What an IGMO. Wow just wow at his stupidity.

There is only one thing left to do since this is such a good an interesting thread (until the TROLL Sarge appeared that is notice he adds NOTHING to the TOPIC just attacking me again...what a moron). So, GREEN DOTTED YOU ARE SARGE...bye bye tah tah. ;)

What is wrong with you, you ok RH

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Post #: 41

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 4:06:11 AM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

But what I'm saying is they should be. When are they going to say we can't enter a car until ID'd is next eh? lol Some stupid computerized camara on every car or some electronical identification system you have to scan your WRIST or PALM of your hand accross to enter your own car...it's coming you wait. I think some of it is already here. ;)

quote:

BTW: I also have this old loon going through my garbage. I think he is harmless, he is just old and looking for useful stuff. I feel bad for him but is he invading my privacy? Should I take arms against him to show him I am not a sheep?

Believe it or not but rifling through or even taking your garbage is one of the EASIEST ways to steal your IDENTITY. That old loon may not be an old loon at all, but, some loon that sells any information he finds about you in your garbage to someone else who is looking for that sort of information. I hope you shread all your important and vital information that you throw away.

This is a slippery slope. You are not against something because it is wrong but because what might, and I emphasize might, come next might be wrong.

I can only discuss whether this is wrong or not. The possibilities of what might happen after that are endless.

_____________________________

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 42

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 4:07:00 AM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Wow you're an even bigger moron than I thought you were Sarge. What an IGMO. Wow just wow at his stupidity.

There is only one thing left to do since this is such a good an interesting thread (until the TROLL Sarge appeared that is notice he adds NOTHING to the TOPIC just attacking me again...what a moron). So, GREEN DOTTED YOU ARE SARGE...bye bye tah tah. ;)

I thought he asked a very good question and you just started calling him names.

_____________________________

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 43

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 4:07:58 AM

cdbeck

Posts: 1374
Joined: 8/16/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline

HA! I love it when Americans (of which I am) assume that the US was, is, and shall be "more free" than old "oppressive" Europe. Let's not forget that the Revolution was begun by rich, property owners, long-distance merchants, who did not appreciate a distant monarch compromising their economic gains, property ownership, or hegemony over local politics (i.e. control over less well off colonists). For goodness sake, the Revolutionaries used the philosophy of John Locke as the basis of their grievances, the very same philosophy that will spawn Smithian economics, Ricardo's Iron Law of Wages (industrialists need to pay workers the lowest wages possible to prevent worker procreation and mini-Malthusian catastrophes), and Liberalism. Liberalism is just a way to get the masses to tacitly approve of being subject to an oligarchy of property owners and the wealthy (voting gives the illusion of power). Anyone who disagrees look at the lineage of the current president, the wealth of the president before him, and so on and so forth.

The Bill of Rights does NOT promise freedom, privacy, equality, happiness or anthing like that. The Declaration of Independence only states that men are CREATED equal, after birth they tend to diverge. In almost every instance the 10 Constitutional amendments that make up the Bill of Rights can be suspended, particularly by State governments and often in cases of security.

THIS IS BY DESIGN and not BY ACCIDENT. One can never trust the government, and... as V for Vendetta states, Governments should be afraid of their people and not vice versa. I prefer local government (i.e. State's Rights) more than Federal control... but only because it is easier to deal with, one can vote "with their feet" and more responsive to local needs and changes.

Ben Franklin had that famous line about "Those who would trade a little freedom for a little security deserves neither and typically loses both." Terrorism kills far fewer people than AIDS, poverty, or Car accidents - and certainly far fewer than the Nazis did. I would rather lose the security that enhanced IDs would bring in exchange for the modicum of privacy we have.

And RH, I don't believe that an Anti-Christ or Satan is necessary for these things to occur. If past events stand as a judge, humans do a good job of repression on their own.

SoM

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 44

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 4:11:04 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Wow you're an even bigger moron than I thought you were Sarge. What an IGMO. Wow just wow at his stupidity.

There is only one thing left to do since this is such a good an interesting thread (until the TROLL Sarge appeared that is notice he adds NOTHING to the TOPIC just attacking me again...what a moron). So, GREEN DOTTED YOU ARE SARGE...bye bye tah tah. ;)

I thought he asked a very good question and you just started calling him names.

You have 61 posts and you QUESTION ME!!?? haha you're green dotted as well then. ;)

(in reply to ORANGE)

Post #: 45

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 4:15:23 AM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

ORIGINAL: ORANGE

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Wow you're an even bigger moron than I thought you were Sarge. What an IGMO. Wow just wow at his stupidity.

There is only one thing left to do since this is such a good an interesting thread (until the TROLL Sarge appeared that is notice he adds NOTHING to the TOPIC just attacking me again...what a moron). So, GREEN DOTTED YOU ARE SARGE...bye bye tah tah. ;)

I thought he asked a very good question and you just started calling him names.

You have 61 posts and you QUESTION ME!!?? haha you're green dotted as well then. ;)

If you read my post you may be able to barely grasp the fact that I did not question you. I only stated that he, and I meant Sarge, asked you a good question and you started calling him names.

I would just like to know the answer to his question. If you have none don't call him names.

_____________________________

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 46

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 4:17:40 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

And RH, I don't believe that an Anti-Christ or Satan is necessary for these things to occur. If past events stand as a judge, humans do a good job of repression on their own.

SoM

Oh I agree SOM I just find it interesting that someone wrote about something as such happening nearly 2000 years ago. The marks are here nothing can take that fact away. Big Brother is here and nothing can take that fact away either. I've always felt if there is any anti-christ it is all our governments. I just never understood paying someone else to tell me how to live and that's what we really do everywhere that has a government. Course I see it all as chaos desquised as democracy. Two major powers democratic or republican it really makes no difference which is controlling us, it's still control and it's still paying someone or a bunch of someones to tell us how we can live.� IDing all of us this way is just another step in total control. I can't believe I am the only one that sees this or one of the very few.

quote:

The Bill of Rights does NOT promise freedom, privacy, equality, happiness or anthing like that. The Declaration of Independence only states that men are CREATED equal, after birth they tend to diverge. In almost every instance the 10 Constitutional amendments that make up the Bill of Rights can be suspended, particularly by State go often in cases of security.

Modern day interpretations? Or is this what our forefathers REALLY Intended? I do not accept modern day interpretations. The wording is plain, it is simple and it at least then WAS easy to interpret. You have the right to privacy 4th amendment I believe and the pursuit of happiness and justice for all. ;) What was not stated directly was understood indirectly as the right to be a private person. There were very few public records then. Hell you didn't have to have a drivers license to ride a horse or a horse and buggy now did you? You also didn't have to have a social security card either did you? But, as the beauracracy grew so too did IDing everyone grow. Then had to have that INCOME TAX and the only way to be sure of getting that was to number everyone. Oh they wisely called it social security, but, we all who see well know what it was for and is for today and will be for in the future. You didn't have to show some form of ID to get on a train either did you? Or ride on a Bus. No, this rediculous IDing system is just another form of control. I see it, too bad others don't.

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 1/12/2008 4:26:57 AM >

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 47

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 4:24:47 AM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

And RH, I don't believe that an Anti-Christ or Satan is necessary for these things to occur. If past events stand as a judge, humans do a good job of repression on their own.

SoM

Oh I agree SOM I just find it interesting that someone wrote about something as such happening nearly 2000 years ago. The marks are here nothing can take that fact away. Big Brother is here and nothing can take that fact away either. I've always felt if there is any anti-christ it is all our governments. I just never understood paying someone else to tell me how to live and that's what we really do everywhere that has a government. Course I see it all as chaos desquised as democracy. Two major powers democratic or republican it really makes no difference which is controlling us, it's still control and it's still paying someone or a bunch of someones to tell us how we can live.� IDing all of us this way is just another step in total control. I can't believe I am the only one that sees this or one of the very few.

Because it is not a mature point of view. People do not pay the government to tell them what to do. They pay the government so they can have roads and law enforcement so they can raise families. They pay the government so that the food supply can be inspected and safe and for a water system that is cleaned. For sewage and garbage to be removed.

You believe in the Anti-christ because that is what all ignorant savages believed 5,000 years ago, that there was some evil boogey man out in the dark and if you did not say certain prayers or do certain things he would take you or yours before you wake.

_____________________________

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 48

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 8:09:14 AM

06 Maestro

Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline

There were never more true words than "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". The more power a government has, the more corrupt it will become. This is an obvious truth to me and anyone who has some desire to remain/become free. Without privacy, you are not free; at a minimum, you will be subject to (morally) unjustified interrogations or searches. Government must have strict limitations on it, or it will grow, and grow and grow. To justify government intrusion into an individuals privacy by listing other clearly required government functions (roads, national defense) is a bit disingenuous-at best.

It is pathetic how the general population becomes accustomed to new and intrusive laws. When the Social Security Act was passed, there were promises, in writing, that the social security number would never be required as an ID. What about the Recco Act (drastically expanded by the conservative hero R. Reagan). Had the U.S. government tried to pass our current laws 60 years ago (or before) I'm quite certain there would have been extreme violence by the general population-this is why they did not try this sixty years ago. These things need to be done slowly if you don't want to risk your neck. The best government is one that fears its law abiding citizens, not a government that treats the wishes of an overwhelming number of law its abiding citizens with contempt.

For those of you who have no need or understanding of liberty, don't fret-you are safe. Very soon the U.S. will soon have a communist president who will take care of your every need. Soon, mental health will be a "right". Remember, the government is tasked to make sure you have your "rights". On the bright side, you should not have to pay for your own shock treatments

-maybe only 20% of total cost.

BTW, the implant chips are here, the readers are here, it's just a question of time before those are put to use. I'm sure those will be very convenient for consumers, but I will die before getting mine. I would expect that wonderful technology to be a smash hit in Europe or China before it makes it to the good old USA. I am not implying that all Europeans are more into total socialism than all Americans, after all, I live next to Kalifornia. However, it does seem obvious that most Europeans are more comfortable with the "nanny state".

< Message edited by 06 Maestro -- 1/12/2008 8:10:28 AM >

(in reply to ORANGE)

Post #: 49

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 9:17:15 AM

Ursa MAior

Posts: 1416
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

What's the point of having a secure driver's license when the government issues them to foreign criminals on demand?

A secure driver's license will do nothing to find illegal aliens when we simply give them away to anyone who asks.

That should be the point. Issue new ID's. Check the given data (what the person in question has provided to the authority) against other sources (say social security etc.). Should help to filter illegal immigrants etc.

IMHO it is NOT a constitutional right (at least in my country) to lie about the validity of my personnal data.

_____________________________

Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Doggie)

Post #: 50

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 10:01:30 AM

morvwilson

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Ursa, there are two rules with the Federal Government over in USA.
1. If it makes sense, don't do it!
2. When in doubt, refer to rule #1.

Universal ID in the US, not likely to happen in the near future.
The rest of the discussion concerning imigration is probably too political for this forum.

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Post #: 51

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 10:10:19 AM

JudgeDredd

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[OFF TOPIC]
RH if you go on green dotting people because they question you, you might find these forums a lonely place pretty soon. I thought you had green dotted me because I apparently wouldn't let you have an opinion. The actual problem was that I countered your opinion and you pressed the green dot.

What the hell did you green dot Orange for? Because he thought Sarges question was a reasonable question? You are getting very silly now.
[ON TOPIC]

Orange, you are probably right....maybe it is not a fear of the "current" policy but more of "what might follow". But I fear the topic took a wider view after the initial post. Whilst that may seem irrational because, as you made clear, the possibilites could be endless, I think it's wise to raise your voice when things like this happen so the people in power realise that you understand the route this could be taking and you are less than happy about it.

I just got the impression from Ursa Maiors post that we should embrace big brother if we have nothing to fear, and I do not agree at all with that. I also want the government to hold as little information as possible about me. I do not believe I need to be spied on to be protected. As long as they are able to identify me, I'm fine...I understand the need for that. But I will not have my privacy invaded and, you bet, abused by a government. Even if I did trust the government in power at present, what about the governments that follow after.

Some clown that I wouldn't trust will eventually be voted in.

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Post #: 52

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 10:20:42 AM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

There were never more true words than "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". The more power a government has, the more corrupt it will become. This is an obvious truth to me and anyone who has some desire to remain/become free. Without privacy, you are not free; at a minimum, you will be subject to (morally) unjustified interrogations or searches. Government must have strict limitations on it, or it will grow, and grow and grow. To justify government intrusion into an individuals privacy by listing other clearly required government functions (roads, national defense) is a bit disingenuous-at best.

It is pathetic how the general population becomes accustomed to new and intrusive laws. When the Social Security Act was passed, there were promises, in writing, that the social security number would never be required as an ID. What about the Recco Act (drastically expanded by the conservative hero R. Reagan). Had the U.S. government tried to pass our current laws 60 years ago (or before) I'm quite certain there would have been extreme violence by the general population-this is why they did not try this sixty years ago. These things need to be done slowly if you don't want to risk your neck. The best government is one that fears its law abiding citizens, not a government that treats the wishes of an overwhelming number of law its abiding citizens with contempt.

For those of you who have no need or understanding of liberty, don't fret-you are safe. Very soon the U.S. will soon have a communist president who will take care of your every need. Soon, mental health will be a "right". Remember, the government is tasked to make sure you have your "rights". On the bright side, you should not have to pay for your own shock treatments-maybe only 20% of total cost.

BTW, the implant chips are here, the readers are here, it's just a question of time before those are put to use. I'm sure those will be very convenient for consumers, but I will die before getting mine. I would expect that wonderful technology to be a smash hit in Europe or China before it makes it to the good old USA. I am not implying that all Europeans are more into total socialism than all Americans, after all, I live next to Kalifornia. However, it does seem obvious that most Europeans are more comfortable with the "nanny state".

Good post and well put, Maestro.

My bold was just to assure you that I am not one of them.

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Post #: 53

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 10:30:23 AM

Ursa MAior

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Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson
Ursa, there are two�rules with the Federal Government over in USA.
1. If it makes sense, don't do it!
2. When in doubt, refer to rule #1.

I see. Well this can be said of most organizations including marriages

.

IMHO we have unfortunately come to an age where individualism has reached such a high level in westrn democracies that even elected public servants think mostly of themselves and not the public they should be serving. So with authorization or without they (politicians) will do what they want. The situation in my country is far worse than in yours, but look closely cuz that is the way it will be.

In the US illegal federal eavesdropping gets to the light and causes public outcry, yet I bet it will continue due to 'security reasons'. In Europe it does not even go public yet it is there and will be there.

Edit
JD

Problem is you dont get to pick.

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Post #: 54

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 12:18:00 PM

ravinhood

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Very good post Maestro glad too see someone with some sense of the matter. ;)

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Post #: 55

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 12:31:15 PM

JudgeDredd

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I wasn't sayin I could pick which state was a nanny state or not...I was saying I wasn't a European comfortable with the "nanny state"

RH
It makes me happy to know that I publicly apologised to you on this very forum, and you have a signature like you do. I envy your childhood. I guess it goes to show which one of us is more the man.

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Post #: 56

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 12:53:34 PM

Awac835

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I just had to login and say that i love these threads where Ravinhood takes on the rest of the board

Its incredible to see how the same people fall into the same roles all the time.

But anyway back to topic. Imo europe do have a imigration problem, Between many of our countrys we have no border security. People can pass from one country to the other without any checks what so ever thx to the "Schengen Agreement". We are pretty much getting run over by organized gangs from eastern europe. Now with countrys like romania and bulgaria getting into this deal aswell i find a little disturbing. One thing is they countrys themself have easy access to europe, but they can also constitude a hole if they have relaxed border control to the outside world.

Another thing is the power invested in the goverment in the light of the "ever growing threat of terror"(or so they say). Tbh i think Ron Paul said it best in one of the GOP debates. "When you trade liberty for security you lose both". If you americans dont want him as president plz ship him on the first flight to Denmark, becouse i wouldnt mind having him over here.

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Post #: 57

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 2:08:39 PM

Ursa MAior

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JD
My bad. I wanted to say you dont get to choose whether you want a nanny state or not.

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Post #: 58

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 2:32:34 PM

JudgeDredd

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Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
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understood...but I still hold out some hope for democracy winning through. I haven't completely given up on the idea...so I'm hoping that peoples votes do count in the future and rationale will prevail.

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Post #: 59

RE: BIG BROTHER & 666 come closer to one another - 1/12/2008 4:36:07 PM

ORANGE

Posts: 198
Joined: 12/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Orange, you are probably right....maybe it is not a fear of the "current" policy but more of "what might follow". But I fear the topic took a wider view after the initial post. Whilst that may seem irrational because, as you made clear, the possibilites could be endless, I think it's wise to raise your voice when things like this happen so the people in power realise that you understand the route this could be taking and you are less than happy about it.

I just got the impression from Ursa Maiors post that we should embrace big brother if we have nothing to fear, and I do not agree at all with that. I also want the government to hold as little information as possible about me. I do not believe I need to be spied on to be protected. As long as they are able to identify me, I'm fine...I understand the need for that. But I will not have my privacy invaded and, you bet, abused by a government. Even if I did trust the government in power at present, what about the governments that follow after.

Some clown that I wouldn't trust will eventually be voted in.

JudgeDredd,

It is natural to fear what follows, or the unknown, and worry. I remember a few years back after one of those blockbuster movies that people were scared that an asteroid would hit the earth and they would die. It is possible that this could happen but in our small lifetimes the chances are very small. People fear what the future will bring because it is an unknown.

I see people concerned about illegal immigration and complaining that nothing is being done. Then when something like building a fence or national ID�s are brought into the debate the government is becoming Big Brother. The ID itself is not a bad idea IMHO. It seems inevitable to me and will eventually come to pass. The people seem to be demanding things that make this practical. The people seem to be driving the need for it but not the actual card.

Holding as little information as possible seems to be a broad classification and open to many interpretations. For instance when you retire you may want to get that social security money you paid in. You may also not some guy who just walks over the border to get benefits. To do this the government has to keep records on you. That is just one instance. I am not sure that this card will authorize huge databases to be created to track everything you do. This seems to me just the next logical step. We live in an automated world and people expect quick results.

This card to me seems less intrusive than the information that a Credit Card company already gathers and in some cases sells. People just do not like the government on principal. All the cool kids hate the government and I want to be cool so I will hate the government too.