Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: mlees

This might fly like a lead brick, but how about a "transparent" color for a closed Burma Road?

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But then you could add the mentioned Chinese syllables for river and the names would be in accordance with maps and atlas. I'll bet there are lots of rivers on the map with parts of their name just mean "river".

Oh, and if you think the names should be consistent, make it "kiang" (like in Kiangsu and Chekiang) instead of "Chiang" and write the whole stuff in one name.

Sorry, before I wrote something different. But all this transcriptions do exist. They just reflect historical fragmentation in and about China. And it's not so easy to unify this chaos.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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But then you could add the mentioned Chinese syllables for river and the names would be in accordance with maps and atlas. I'll bet there are lots of rivers on the map with parts of their name just mean "river".

Oh, and if you think the names should be consistent, make it "kiang" (like in Kiangsu and Chekiang) instead of "Chiang" and write the whole stuff in one name.

Sorry, before I wrote something different. But all this transcriptions do exist. They just reflect historical fragmentation in and about China. And it's not so easy to unify this chaos.

Well, I'm not to enclined to add the "kiang" word to nearly all rivers in China. I would rather make disappear the extra word that there can be in other rivers on the map, that would mean "River".

What do others think ?

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Yennan = Yenan
 
In 1937, to delay the Japanese advance, the KMT blew up the dykes on the Yellow River near Chengchow and Kaifeng, flooding the area and diverting the Yellow River back onto its historical course, moving its mouth to the southern side of the Shantung Peninsula.  As a result of this idiocy, one million Chinese peasants died of starvation.  See your Post 47 for the correct course of the river.
 
The factory icons are horrific.  Can we not have the traditional saw-toothed roof with a chimney at the end?  And what is the difference between blue and red?  Useable after capture?  I don’t believe there were ever any factories or resources in Sian: the Japanese would have moved to seize them immediately if there had been.  And confirming an earlier post: both Sian and Lanchow were KMT.
 
There were mines at Ichang which is why the Japanese moved west to capture them.  Perhaps shift the Sian resource to Ichang?
 
Wuhan-Hankow straddle the river like Buda and Pest.  Today Wuhan is more important.  But following the fall of Nanking in 1937, Hankow became the capital of China, so it really ought to appear in the game.  At the fall of Hankow, Chiang Kai-Shek moved the government to Chungking.
 
Why does the Burma Road go to Changsha?  It went from Kunming to Kweiyang to Chungking.  Yes, towards the end of the war KMT units in the Changsha area were supplied and trained to a higher standard thanks to equipment brought from Kunming, but there was nothing special about Changsha.  It just happened to be in the front-line at the time.  Over a series of games, the front-line could be in wildly different places.  KMT units in Kwangsi, Hupeh or Honan could equally well have been upgraded if there had been a need.  The Burma Road was a strategic route.  In game terms, once resources reach Chungking they should be able to be distributed freely ... or stockpiled.  And remember that from early 1944 the bulk of the supplies shifted along the Burma Road from Kunming were avgas for the B-29s at Chengtu.  They even laid an oil-pipeline alongside the road.
 
I presume you mean that individual sections of the Burma Road change colour as they are interdicted, not the whole route?  Up to September 1940, the Kunming to Chungking section was used to ferry imports arriving from Haiphong.  Following the occupation of northern French Indo-China, the Burma Road was used to ferry supplies arriving at Rangoon.  After the fall of Rangoon, supplies were airlifted Over the Hump to the airfield at Kunming from where they were taken along the Burma Road by truck to Chungking.  Thus the section Kunming-Kweiyang-Chungking never closed, even though the section from Lashio to Kunming was out of action.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

What is the progress with playtesting the Pacific map and in particular China (as distinct from beta testing the programming)? I am very concerned that the change in scale may produce unforeseen ripple effects, with a series of minor changes conspiring to together create a major change. The China map needs very extensive testing of strategy, especially given the lower density.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Please direct me to a thread on play-testing the game mechanics in the Pacific, rather than beta-testing the program.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Yennan = Yenan

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In 1937, to delay the Japanese advance, the KMT blew up the dykes on the Yellow River near Chengchow and Kaifeng, flooding the area and diverting the Yellow River back onto its historical course, moving its mouth to the southern side of the Shantung Peninsula. As a result of this idiocy, one million Chinese peasants died of starvation. See your Post 47 for the correct course of the river.

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The factory icons are horrific. Can we not have the traditional saw-toothed roof with a chimney at the end? And what is the difference between blue and red? Useable after capture? I don’t believe there were ever any factories or resources in Sian: the Japanese would have moved to seize them immediately if there had been. And confirming an earlier post: both Sian and Lanchow were KMT.

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There were mines at Ichang which is why the Japanese moved west to capture them. Perhaps shift the Sian resource to Ichang?

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Wuhan-Hankow straddle the river like Buda and Pest. Today Wuhan is more important. But following the fall of Nanking in 1937, Hankow became the capital of China, so it really ought to appear in the game. At the fall of Hankow, Chiang Kai-Shek moved the government to Chungking.

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Why does the Burma Road go to Changsha? It went from Kunming to Kweiyang to Chungking. Yes, towards the end of the war KMT units in the Changsha area were supplied and trained to a higher standard thanks to equipment brought from Kunming, but there was nothing special about Changsha. It just happened to be in the front-line at the time. Over a series of games, the front-line could be in wildly different places. KMT units in Kwangsi, Hupeh or Honan could equally well have been upgraded if there had been a need. The Burma Road was a strategic route. In game terms, once resources reach Chungking they should be able to be distributed freely ... or stockpiled. And remember that from early 1944 the bulk of the supplies shifted along the Burma Road from Kunming were avgas for the B-29s at Chengtu. They even laid an oil-pipeline alongside the road.



I presume you mean that individual sections of the Burma Road change colour as they are interdicted, not the whole route? Up to September 1940, the Kunming to Chungking section was used to ferry imports arriving from Haiphong. Following the occupation of northern French Indo-China, the Burma Road was used to ferry supplies arriving at Rangoon. After the fall of Rangoon, supplies were airlifted Over the Hump to the airfield at Kunming from where they were taken along the Burma Road by truck to Chungking. Thus the section Kunming-Kweiyang-Chungking never closed, even though the section from Lashio to Kunming was out of action.

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Wuhan-Hankow straddle the river like Buda and Pest. Today Wuhan is more important. But following the fall of Nanking in 1937, Hankow became the capital of China, so it really ought to appear in the game. At the fall of Hankow, Chiang Kai-Shek moved the government to Chungking.

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Why does the Burma Road go to Changsha? It went from Kunming to Kweiyang to Chungking. Yes, towards the end of the war KMT units in the Changsha area were supplied and trained to a higher standard thanks to equipment brought from Kunming, but there was nothing special about Changsha. It just happened to be in the front-line at the time. Over a series of games, the front-line could be in wildly different places. KMT units in Kwangsi, Hupeh or Honan could equally well have been upgraded if there had been a need. The Burma Road was a strategic route. In game terms, once resources reach Chungking they should be able to be distributed freely ... or stockpiled. And remember that from early 1944 the bulk of the supplies shifted along the Burma Road from Kunming were avgas for the B-29s at Chengtu. They even laid an oil-pipeline alongside the road.

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I presume you mean that individual sections of the Burma Road change colour as they are interdicted, not the whole route? Up to September 1940, the Kunming to Chungking section was used to ferry imports arriving from Haiphong. Following the occupation of northern French Indo-China, the Burma Road was used to ferry supplies arriving at Rangoon. After the fall of Rangoon, supplies were airlifted Over the Hump to the airfield at Kunming from where they were taken along the Burma Road by truck to Chungking. Thus the section Kunming-Kweiyang-Chungking never closed, even though the section from Lashio to Kunming was out of action.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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Wuhan-Hankow straddle the river like Buda and Pest. Today Wuhan is more important. But following the fall of Nanking in 1937, Hankow became the capital of China, so it really ought to appear in the game. At the fall of Hankow, Chiang Kai-Shek moved the government to Chungking.

If I understood correctly, Wuhan is composed of 3 cities : Hankow to the N, Wuchang to the SE and Hanyang to the SW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan says that "The metropolitan area comprises three parts - Wuchang, Hankou, and Hanyang, commonly called the "Three Towns of Wuhan" (hence the name "Wuhan", combining "Wu" from the first city and "Han" from the other two). The consolidation of these three cities occurred in 1927 and Wuhan was thereby established."

So, I can't call this city Hankow, it was called Wuhan since 1927. Don't you agree ?
I agree that the name of Hankow may have had been used during the war, but maybe it was missused ?

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Thanks for your approval, Wosung.  The wrong route of the Yellow River is a mistake every game on the subject has made so far, so we are in good company.  I use it as a benchmark of good or indifferent historical research (as with the Nanning rail-head, which I am very impressed Patrice has got right!)

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Since the dykes were blown up to create an obstacle for the Japanese, it is hardly likely they were rebuilt while the war was continuing, doubly so since they were in the front-line.

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I was under the impression we were using Anglicised spelling throughout the map (so Yellow River, not Hwang Ho).  Certainly in all English books of the period, it is Yenan.  Not important.

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It is a long time since I played WiF, but I thought all resources went to the capital, from where they were used to build units anywhere in controlled territory (or perhaps controlled cities).  That's the classic gaming convention.  Why has this changed?

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If it is essential to keep a road to Changsha, then at least let us have the historical link from Kweiyang to Chungking included as well.  Otherwise, anybody considering buying the game will think we haven't done our historical research.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Yennan = Yenan

Please have a look at the earlier posts for the problem of a consistent transcription of Chinese. It didn't exist in WW2. Yennan then probably was more common. Now its PRC's pinyin transcription Yenan.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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If it is essential to keep a road to Changsha, then at least let us have the historical link from Kweiyang to Chungking included as well.  Otherwise, anybody considering buying the game will think we haven't done our historical research.

Well, I would like to do that, for historical accuracy, but WiF FE originaly don't have it, this would be a big departure from the original game where Chungking is rail-isolated from the rest of the world, meaning that an army wanting to go there needs a lot HQ to simply move there. Not talking about even fighting. This is a decsion Harry can take, not me.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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If it is essential to keep a road to Changsha, then at least let us have the historical link from Kweiyang to Chungking included as well.  Otherwise, anybody considering buying the game will think we haven't done our historical research.

Well, I would like to do that, for historical accuracy, but WiF FE originaly don't have it, this would be a big departure from the original game where Chungking is rail-isolated from the rest of the world, meaning that an army wanting to go there needs a lot HQ to simply move there. Not talking about even fighting. This is a decsion Harry can take, not me.

Well, I just found a map of China from 1944 (Look at the world Atlas) that shows the Burma Road going to Changsha and who does not show the part from Kweiyang to Chungking.

On this map, Yennan is spelled Yenan.

This map also shows both courses for the Yellow River, with a not that says that the southern course is from 1938.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

This post is in response to Neilster above:

Thanks ... but the most recent post on that thread is dated 15 November 2006.  I assume the mechanics of China (as opposed to the program) are being tested at this moment, manually if the code is not ready yet.  I would very much like to read the sorts of problems that are being thrown up.  I saw a reference in an early post to Greyshaft hosting a play-testers' thread, but cannot find one.

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ORIGINAL: wosung




For Yennan/Yenan: I just googeled it and found both variants in english publications.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0020-5850(197401)50%3A1%3C163%3ATLR%3E2.0.CO%3B2-S

Maybe it's a Transatlantic thing?! Maybe it's just symptomatic for Chinese political disunity and bad international position in the first half of the twentieth century.

I think gamewise CCP simply just should not have to rely on Yennan or any other city. It should rely (mainly) on partisan units. PLA didn't have access to heavy industry nor to the supply route for the massive foreign military aid necessary for a field army. Its very military weakness and lack of economic possessions was the best defense against getting into the focus of Japanese army. Maybe for every enemy land unit destroyed by Chinese Communist partisans the Chinese Communist player should be allowed to field the corresponding division sized unit of the same type to reflect captured weapons.

But this won't happen for MWIF product 1. And given the close connection to WIF, it probably would need an "East Asia in Flames" module of the latter to get such far reaching changes done in MWIF

I'm not advocating the Burma road ending at Changsha. Has the classic game convention changed?

Regards