Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Comprehensive Wishlist

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> RE: Comprehensive Wishlist Page: <<   < prev  8 9 [10] 11 12   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 2/24/2008 5:48:29 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Now there is a good example of when swap-outs would be reasonable, and indeed, they should be possible if the designer has enabled them.


No. It should be possible regardless. The vast majority of scenarios will never be updated because the designers have moved on. It is certainly not correct to assume that we know the designer's intention was to prevent equipment upgrades - that wasn't an option for them. We should treat players as adults who will make reasonable choices - or at least give them the option to make those choices.

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 271
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 2/24/2008 5:51:21 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Legun
There is a simple solution. We need 3 steps advanced game option:
- no rearment (default)
- limited rearment (the same country field is needed)
- free rearment (the same type of equipment is expected only)


So, the players would have control of how much flexibility they wanted. That's just what I'm advocating.

quote:

What we could discuss is proficency/readiness/supply reduction.


Of course. Change equipment and the unit suffers a drop in those. More so if the equipment is from a different country.

(in reply to Legun)
Post #: 272
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 2/24/2008 6:05:18 PM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Put it this way.

My typical British rifle battalion in Seelowe:

33/36 rifle

2/2 light rifle

9/12 50 mm mortar

2/2 3 inch mortar

1/2 dual AA MG

7/10 Bren Carrier



..i didn't get the 50mm mortars and aren't you missing a few rifle AT- squads and some HMGs ?..

..other than i went for Lt rifle, with Rifle for the LMGs and made TOE divisible by 3 we basically agree..

..edit..Add to the wish-list..can we have battalions dividing into 4 please ?


..apologies, i found the 50mm mortars, parked in downtown Singapore..


_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beān'tus all..?,

(in reply to a white rabbit)
Post #: 273
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 2/24/2008 6:14:13 PM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Now there is a good example of when swap-outs would be reasonable, and indeed, they should be possible if the designer has enabled them.


No. It should be possible regardless. The vast majority of scenarios will never be updated because the designers have moved on. It is certainly not correct to assume that we know the designer's intention was to prevent equipment upgrades - that wasn't an option for them. We should treat players as adults who will make reasonable choices - or at least give them the option to make those choices.


..sorry BUT..

..like i said, from Toaw 1 there was always the "cadre" option, it even got a mention by Norm, way-back-when...

..so maybe we should treat designers like adults, and take it that if they didn't go that route they were either bog-lazy/ blind/ stupid or didn't want to use it ?

..note, not a word about ants..


_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beān'tus all..?,

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 274
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 2/24/2008 6:17:27 PM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
However, as to 'why not' -- often the equipment represents something that had a purpose other than just combat, or has virtues not reflected by TOAW. Like, the 'light rifles' are pioneers -- not stormtroops. Or 'scout carriers' might not be as formidable as Dingo armored cars -- but they're a lot smaller and able to perform the multiple tasks for which they were originally designed.


If they're in the game then they're in combat units in one form or another. What difference does it make which ones? However inappropriate they are for alternate roles will be reflected in their parameters.


I think this largely misses my point. A British infantry battalion in 1941 could not have just swapped out its 'scout carriers' for Marmon-Herrington armored cars. Equally to the point, it certainly wouldn't have. It certainly wouldn't be an improvement in OPART if it became possible to do this without the scenario designer having chosen to make it possible.


..agreed..


_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beān'tus all..?,

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 275
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 2/24/2008 8:20:02 PM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Now there is a good example of when swap-outs would be reasonable, and indeed, they should be possible if the designer has enabled them.


No. It should be possible regardless.


That proposition is so transparently absurd that I don't think it's necessary to expend energy taking it apart.


_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 276
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 2/25/2008 6:12:29 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognerd
Geomorphic terrain types, hills, mountains, cultivated etc. use a tile set allowing them to be geomorphic.
I would like to add 2 to 3 more geomorphic sets of clear terrain with a color gradient from green to brown.
Right now we have 4 elevation terrains, clear, hills, mountain and alpine. Adding the color gradient clear tile sets would allow map makers to show elevation changes with greater detail, bringing the maps to life.
These new clear colors do not have to have any effect on movement/combat since they just show gradual elevation changes. They just are there for map aesthetics.
Most terrain maps and WWII maps use this paradigm of color gradients to show elevation changes.


Clear, hills, mountain, & alpine model differences in relief, not elevation. That's a tactical issue.

quote:

Editor functions: Don't know how terrain movement and terrain combat effects are programmed into the game, but an adjustable table in the editor would be nice to tweak scenario specific terrain movement costs and terrain combat effects.


See item 2.23.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 2/25/2008 6:13:04 PM >
Post #: 277
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 2/29/2008 8:54:37 PM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline 		This has got to be on the big wish list -- but how about an optional, designer-set limit to a supply trace? In a lot of scenarios, the unlimited supply trace doesn't make much sense.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 2/29/2008 8:55:52 PM >

_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo
Post #: 278
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 2/29/2008 11:01:47 PM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline 		And another thing...

Editable terrain would be really, really neat. Aside from being able to separate movement and defense modifiers, it would be good to be able to decide whether or not a given type of terrain can or cannot block supply lines.

...Yes, Curtis. I'm sure it's on the wish list.

_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 279
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/1/2008 5:37:44 AM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

And another thing...

Editable terrain would be really, really neat. Aside from being able to separate movement and defense modifiers, it would be good to be able to decide whether or not a given type of terrain can or cannot block supply lines.

...Yes, Curtis. I'm sure it's on the wish list.


..me too..

..some us do want to turn open/cropland into marsh every monsoon period..


_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beān'tus all..?,

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 280
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/1/2008 6:54:06 AM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..me too..

..some us do want to turn open/cropland into marsh every monsoon period..



That also -- but it'd be more difficult to program than what I'm looking for. I just want to be able to program things like...

Woods that happen to have plenty of roads through them. One still should have the defensive bonus, but why a movement penalty?

Supply in cases like Operation Exporter. The Commonwealth forces, at least, had nil ability to supply troops in the hills of the Lebanon once they were off-road. The Australians were begging for mules -- and couldn't get them.

In larger-scale scenarios, I think of the terrain in places like Nevada. Very high, rugged ranges of mountains, wooded at the upper elevations -- all the defensive virtues one could ask for. But, generally, also dead-flat valleys of sage brush and grass. You could probably drive across them at 40 mph if you didn't mind a sore butt.

Jungle...it would be nice to be able to decide whether or not jungle blocked supply traces -- without tripling the movement cost by putting in badlands.

Polder. Sort of uber-cropland. It won't slow foot movement at all, but it'll stop mechanized movement cold.

Weakened bocage. Norm seems to have been very, very impressed by Norman bocage. First, I doubt that it's a major ordeal transiting the Norman countryside. I'd want to eliminate or greatly lessen the movement penalty. Second, hedges and stone walls can be found in lots of places. Leaving aside a debate about Normandy in particular, I can think of lots of places I'd want some defensive advantages -- but not the crushing ones the standard 'bocage' offers.

And no doubt other cases. Point is, editable terrain doesn't seem to me to like it would be all that hard to do, and the current values could be left as the default.




_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to a white rabbit)
Post #: 281
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/1/2008 6:55:36 AM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline 		And while I'm thinking about it:

The hex conversion penalty needs to be adjustable. It's positively absurd in a lot of situations. Like what's 'enemy' desert and what's 'friendly' desert?

_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 282
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/3/2008 12:35:31 AM   
briantopp

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		My wishlist submission:

- increase the 2000-unit per side limit (doubling it would be a good start)
- ability to have a unit shift from one formation to another in-game

(in reply to Silvanski)
Post #: 283
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/3/2008 2:07:34 AM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: briantopp

My wishlist submission:

- increase the 2000-unit per side limit (doubling it would be a good start)
- ability to have a unit shift from one formation to another in-game



Actually, I'd rather have an increased map size.

We've got more events, which took some pressure off, and I have my reservations about the merits of what I would call the 'unplayable beast' scenarios -- but a bigger map would be useful. Some potential scenarios involve relatively small combats at widely scattered locations.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 3/3/2008 2:08:30 AM >

_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to briantopp)
Post #: 284
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/3/2008 8:01:14 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		I had an idea that I included in the latest wishlist update to make further increases in editor parameters dynamic. So, instead of increasing array sizes, the array sizes would stay the same. But, if a designer wished to exceed any of them, the increase would be alotted dynamically (as a linked-list). That way, existing scenarios wouldn't have to carry the overhead of larger arrays, but the potential expansion ability would be almost unlimited.

The down-side would be that there might be some performance issues, since linked-lists take longer to access elements than arrays, but that cost would only be applied to those designs that went beyond the array limits. There would also be a risk that some really huge design would crash on some or most machines, but, again, that would be a cost that only the designer of such scenarios would have to be concerned with.

I haven't run this past Ralph, yet. He may say I'm nuts or that it's too difficult.

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 285
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/3/2008 8:36:40 PM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


I haven't run this past Ralph, yet. He may say I'm nuts...


Yeah. But the idea itself might be sound.


_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 286
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/4/2008 1:19:17 AM   
ralphtricky


Posts: 6685
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


I haven't run this past Ralph, yet. He may say I'm nuts...


Yeah. But the idea itself might be sound.


Yes, the idea's sound, although I can dynically allocate the array and avoid any performance hit. The big issues are that the UI isn't designed for large numbers of anything, and loading/saving would pretty much have to be all in XML for that to work.

Ralph


_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 287
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/4/2008 5:19:26 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
Yes, the idea's sound, although I can dynically allocate the array and avoid any performance hit. The big issues are that the UI isn't designed for large numbers of anything, and loading/saving would pretty much have to be all in XML for that to work.


Thanks, Ralph. That's more positive than I expected. I don't see a problem if use of such expansion requires editing in XML. Isn't that just the facility that the new version of ODD is intended to provide?

(in reply to ralphtricky)
Post #: 288
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/5/2008 12:10:42 AM   
Martin_Goliath

 

Posts: 98
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline 		Since "nuts" was mentioned a few posts above, I was reminded of the following thought that popped up while skimming the latest version of the wish list: With 100 km hexes and larger map sizes on the wish list, mapping of the entire globe would be within reach (the circumference would be approx. 400 hexes @ 100 km/hex). Not that I am eager to dive into it, or even find it very useful to do, there is always someone out there... . Now, for this to make sense, I guess we would need a spheroidal hex grid, as an alternative to the usual plane one. I am not suggesting that the developing affort should go in this direction, but it sure sounds like a challenge to get movement, supply trace, etc. to work seamlessly over the seam, so to speak...

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 289
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/5/2008 1:29:18 AM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarGol

Since "nuts" was mentioned a few posts above, I was reminded of the following thought that popped up while skimming the latest version of the wish list: With 100 km hexes and larger map sizes on the wish list, mapping of the entire globe would be within reach (the circumference would be approx. 400 hexes @ 100 km/hex). Not that I am eager to dive into it, or even find it very useful to do, there is always someone out there... . Now, for this to make sense, I guess we would need a spheroidal hex grid, as an alternative to the usual plane one. I am not suggesting that the developing affort should go in this direction, but it sure sounds like a challenge to get movement, supply trace, etc. to work seamlessly over the seam, so to speak...


If nothing else, it would at least mark a natural limit.

...I suppose the aliens on the Moon can always be represented in some sort of off-map staging area.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 3/5/2008 1:33:50 AM >

_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to Martin_Goliath)
Post #: 290
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/7/2008 8:24:58 AM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline 		..joining the edges is the problem, unless you use a North Pole centered projection, then your major headache is either sea-distances correct or land, but not both..

..oh and as a map-maker working upside down gets quite spacey, i dread to think how the playrs would feel..

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beān'tus all..?,

(in reply to Martin_Goliath)
Post #: 291
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/7/2008 8:27:06 AM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarGol

Since "nuts" was mentioned a few posts above, I was reminded of the following thought that popped up while skimming the latest version of the wish list: With 100 km hexes and larger map sizes on the wish list, mapping of the entire globe would be within reach (the circumference would be approx. 400 hexes @ 100 km/hex). Not that I am eager to dive into it, or even find it very useful to do, there is always someone out there... . Now, for this to make sense, I guess we would need a spheroidal hex grid, as an alternative to the usual plane one. I am not suggesting that the developing affort should go in this direction, but it sure sounds like a challenge to get movement, supply trace, etc. to work seamlessly over the seam, so to speak...


If nothing else, it would at least mark a natural limit.

...I suppose the aliens on the Moon can always be represented in some sort of off-map staging area.



..not really, no way to get them eqidistant, unless you stick them on the North Pole, anyway at anything like a reasonable scale the world takes up most of the map


_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beān'tus all..?,

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 292
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/7/2008 8:47:57 AM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarGol

Since "nuts" was mentioned a few posts above, I was reminded of the following thought that popped up while skimming the latest version of the wish list: With 100 km hexes and larger map sizes on the wish list, mapping of the entire globe would be within reach (the circumference would be approx. 400 hexes @ 100 km/hex). Not that I am eager to dive into it, or even find it very useful to do, there is always someone out there... . Now, for this to make sense, I guess we would need a spheroidal hex grid, as an alternative to the usual plane one. I am not suggesting that the developing affort should go in this direction, but it sure sounds like a challenge to get movement, supply trace, etc. to work seamlessly over the seam, so to speak...


If nothing else, it would at least mark a natural limit.

...I suppose the aliens on the Moon can always be represented in some sort of off-map staging area.



..not really, no way to get them eqidistant, unless you stick them on the North Pole, anyway at anything like a reasonable scale the world takes up most of the map



Distant hexes? +3840...if we plop the 'alien moon base' in the middle of something remote in should be reasonably equitable. I'd go for the North Pole. That way the aliens ravage Canada first whilst mankind gathers his forces for the great counterattack.

_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to a white rabbit)
Post #: 293
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/7/2008 10:16:59 PM   
Martin_Goliath

 

Posts: 98
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..joining the edges is the problem, unless you use a North Pole centered projection, then your major headache is either sea-distances correct or land, but not both..

..oh and as a map-maker working upside down gets quite spacey, i dread to think how the playrs would feel..


I was merely thinking of an alternative to plane maps to be implemented in the game engine itself. By having a spheroid grid mapping the earth's surface, map projection will not be an issue. The hard bit is setting up the hex relations (which hexes are considered adjacent to a particular hex). This is non-trivial, but is done on a regular basis when generating grids e.g. for fluid-dynamical computations (I believe triangular grids are often used, which could be useful here since hex centres form a grid of equilateral triangles).

For example, if we arbitrarily choose the North Pole to be hex (0,0), it would be surrounded by hexes (0,1) through (5,1), and so on going southwards. Down at the equator, hex (0,100) would be adjacent to (399,100) or so @ 100 km/hex. Finally, the South Pole would be hex (0,200) or something, surrounded by (0,199) through (5,199). Scrolling around in your map window would be like Google Earth, but since you have such a small patch of the map visible, the curvature would not be a big issue (at the normal zoom level for game play, my [admittedly low] screen resolution usually lets me see 20 hexes width at a time, which would be 2000 km @ 100 km/hex). Hence, the map window could probably look and feel as usual (however, I guess the minimap would be something else!).

Off-map staging areas will be difficult, since there are no map edges. I suppose we would have to do without LGM

(in reply to a white rabbit)
Post #: 294
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/8/2008 7:34:02 AM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline 		What would actually be involved in increasing the maximum map size to -- say -- 600x600?

_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to Martin_Goliath)
Post #: 295
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/8/2008 10:37:28 AM   
L`zard


Posts: 362
Joined: 6/3/2005
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline 		"...More than 70 people have been killed by two bombs in Baghdad, attached to two mentally disabled women and detonated remotely, says a security official..." (Colin Wright)

Hey, Colin!

My mother-in-law has 'on-set' Dementia........

Can I have your street address? I wonder if this really works, eh? I could cure two problems at once! LOL!



(just kidding, Colin, You know we all love yah!)

_____________________________

"I have the brain of a genius, and the heart of a little child! I keep them in a jar under my bed."


(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 296
RE: Comprehensive Wishlist - 3/8/2008 10:50:45 AM   
Veers


Posts: 1324
Joined: 6/6/2006
Status: offline 		*shakes head*
That's so wrong on so many levels....


and yet still funny....

_____________________________

To repeat history in a game is to be predictable.
If you wish to learn more about EA, feel free to pop over to the EA forums Europe Aflame Forums.

(in reply to L`zard)
Post #: 297
Page:   <<   < prev  8 9 [10] 11 12   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> RE: Comprehensive Wishlist Page: <<   < prev  8 9 [10] 11 12   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.141