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RE: Memo - 3/28/2008 11:16:13 PM   
*Lava*


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is my first pass on the help text for the naval review summary form.


Seems pretty comprehensive to me. We'll see how it all works out when we got the game in our hands.

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1111
RE: Memo - 3/29/2008 11:02:37 AM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I am trying to avoid placing 2 numbers in a cell because there really isn't enough room if they are both double digits. I'm betting that having 10 carriers in a sea area or port is going to be rare. Similarly, having 10 units that can invade from a sea area shouldn't occur very often.

I'll probably write code to check for whether the text fits in the available space and reduce the size of the font if it doesn't. That's a pain to do, but the code exists elsewhere, so it is merely a task of cloning it.

Having 10 carriers in a port or sea area won't be rare at all. It will be the case every turn in the Pacific for half of the war. The USA have 6-7 carriers initialy, plus 5 Essex class arriving in the force pool in J/F41 that usually get finished by S/O42, and another 4 Essexes in J/F42, usually available in S/O43, and 9 other Essexes in J/F43 that can arrive in S/O44. I have always seen the US Navy with more than 20 CV / CVL in their fleet during 1944-1945.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1112
RE: Memo - 3/29/2008 11:29:47 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I am trying to avoid placing 2 numbers in a cell because there really isn't enough room if they are both double digits. I'm betting that having 10 carriers in a sea area or port is going to be rare. Similarly, having 10 units that can invade from a sea area shouldn't occur very often.

I'll probably write code to check for whether the text fits in the available space and reduce the size of the font if it doesn't. That's a pain to do, but the code exists elsewhere, so it is merely a task of cloning it.

Having 10 carriers in a port or sea area won't be rare at all. It will be the case every turn in the Pacific for half of the war. The USA have 6-7 carriers initialy, plus 5 Essex class arriving in the force pool in J/F41 that usually get finished by S/O42, and another 4 Essexes in J/F42, usually available in S/O43, and 9 other Essexes in J/F43 that can arrive in S/O44. I have always seen the US Navy with more than 20 CV / CVL in their fleet during 1944-1945.

But why would so many be in 1 port or sea area? Yes, you can achieve that, but it does seem to be a lot in one place. To start with, wouldn't some of them be in the Atlantic? And if you have that many, wouldn't you try to go after more than 1 objective?

But people play the game different ways.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1113
RE: Memo - 3/29/2008 5:55:50 PM   
warspite1


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Steve - comments on the draft - some are typos, some are alternative suggestions.

Introduction
There are four closely related forms for working with naval units: Naval Review Details, Naval Review Summary, Task Force Details, and Task Force Summary. These are referred to as NRD, NRS, TFD, and TFS respectively. The NRD and TFD forms have very similar visual designs; and the same is true for the NRS and TFS forms. Also, each of the forms only uses half of the minimum screen area, so that two of these forms can be shown side by side.

AMEND LAST SENTENCE ABOVE SO IT READS - EACH FORM ONLY USES HALF......

However, it is important to understand that each of the four forms is used to accomplish different tasks while playing. You might start by showing the NRD form to see all the units in a port, and then bring up the NRS form alongside of it, to see a summary of naval units in other ports and sea areas. From there you can use the NRS form to select a port or sea area, and refresh the NRD to see the units in the selected port/sea area.

Or, you might start with the NRD form for a sea area and bring up the TFD form for a task force that is in that sea area. You could then replace the NRD form with the TFS form to locate all the task forces under your command. Just like using the NRS and NRD forms together, you can use the TFS and TFD forms together, clicking on a task force in the TFS to refresh the TFD form with the information on the selected task force. The combination of TFS and TFD lets you review all your (or your enemy’s) task forces quickly and in great detail.

Another common use for these forms is to bring up the NRD for a port or sea area section box and then create a task force from the units in the selected port/sea area section box. It’s not possible to create a task force using units from different sections of a sea area, since the rules forbid them from moving as a group. The setup form has a button to initiate this task where the NRD form contains the units in the setup tray’s current location (e.g., US West Coast) and the TFD is placed alongside the NRD so you can create a new task force from the units to be setup. The advantage here is that once you have defined your task force, you merely place the single TF unit on the map, instead of having to place all the individual units.

AMEND SECOND SENTENCE ABOVE - REPLACE IT`S WITH IT IS.....
POSSIBLY ADD - OR FROM DIFFERENT PORTS - TO THE END OF THAT SENTENCE?

By giving your task forces meaningful names and attaching Notes to them, you can identify the task/purpose for each of them. Though I would advise against naming them Invade Calais Task Force, unless you really meant to use them to invade Normandy.

SUGGEST AMENDING MEANINGFUL WITH - YOUR OWN
SUGGEST INSERTING - READILY - BEFORE IDENTIFY
SUGGEST ADDING THE FOLLOWING AFTER NORMANDY - .....NORMANDY, AND YOU ARE LOOKING TO CONFUSE YOUR HUMAN OPPONENTS (IN EFFECT, YOUR VERY OWN OPERATION FORTITUDE!).

A common activity when the NRD and TFD are shown side-by-side is to exchange units between them, modifying the composition of your task forces. Since task forces are purely MWIF administrative units, they have no interaction with the WIF rules. Creating, disbanding, and modifying task forces can be freely done at any time during game play, completely ignoring all rules concerning game play.


-----------------------
Naval Review Summary
The NRS form is three reports in one. Since naval units can only be located in two places on the map: in port or at sea, the NRS form provides the ability for you to focus on one of those two locations or both at once. When ports are the focal point, summary statistics are shown for up to 8 ports at a time. The same is true for sea areas when they are the focus of the report. Alternatively, you can choose to view both together, 8 of each. The Both report provides less detail than when the focus in on ports or sea areas alone. For example, the summary statistic for carriers in the Both report is for all carrier types, while when reviewing Ports or Sea Areas alone, the carriers are broken out into separate counts for: Carriers, Light Carriers, and ASW Carriers. So, the first control you need to set when viewing an NRS report is the Focus.

SUGGEST REMOVE FIRST SENTENCE AND REPLACE WITH - THE NRS FORM ALLOWS YOU TO CHOOSE ONE OF THREE WAYS TO VIEW UNITS AND THIS IS DONE VIA THE FOCUS OPTION BUTTONS.
SECOND SENTENCE REMOVE - SINCE - AND INSERT A FULL STOP AFTER AT SEA. REMOVE REST OF SENTENCE AND THE NEXT THREE SENTENCES AND REPLACE WITH - BY CHOOSING THE PORT OPTION , YOU MAY VIEW SUMMARY STATISTICS FOR UNITS IN UP TO 8 PORTS AT A TIME. BY CHOOSING SEA AREAS, YOU MAY VIEW SUMMARY STATISTICS FOR UNITS IN UP TO 8 SEA AREAS AT A TIME. BY CHOOSING THE BOTH OPTION, YOU MAY SEE UNIT STATISTICS FOR UP TO 8 PORTS AND 8 SEA AREAS, ALTHOUGH THE REPORT WILL CONTAIN SLIGHTLY LESS DETAIL. FOR EXAMPLE.......

REPLACE WHILE WITH AND IN THE SECOND TO LAST SENTENCE

The second consideration is whose units you wish to view. Similar to the NRD report, the NRS contains filters for Mine, Allied, Axis, Subs, and Available. It does not have the Task Force filter. Instead all the units assigned to task forces are treated as individual units for the purpose of compiling summary statistics. It does have an additional filter labeled Empty. The Empty filter controls whether the report should display ports and sea areas even if there are no units therein that pass the filter. This is convenient when you want to know what units are in a sea area, even when there are no units in the sea area. This comes up a lot when you change the filters, since there often are only units from one side in a sea area. Rather than have a sea area column disappear from the report because there are no enemy ships present, having the Empty filter set means that the columns being displayed do not change when you change the filters

REPLACE THERE OFTEN ARE WITH THERE ARE OFTEN IN THE SECOND TO LAST SENTENCE

Which leads to the third decision you need to make when setting up a Naval Review Summary report: which ports and sea areas do you want to review? While it would be nice to see them all at once, the design decision to limit the footprint of the NRS form to half of the minimal screen means that no more than 8 of each can be seen at the same time. However, you have the ability to fine tune what is shown in each column of summary statistics and to save and restore these ‘Displays’ to disk for use at other times and when playing different major powers. Saved display files have the extension NRS.

To change which port or sea area is the subject of the summary statistics in a column, there are 7 buttons provided. The standard navigational buttons of: First, Previous, Next, and Last let you cycle through all the possible ports or sea areas. There is only one set of navigational buttons on the NRS report - the NRD has two sets, one for ports and another for sea areas. To use the navigational buttons, you must first select a column that you want to change. Depending on whether you have selected a port column or a sea area column, the program then cycles through either ports or sea areas.

When choosing the First, Previous, Next, and Last entries, the program applies the filters. If the Empty filter is Off, then the program only shows ports/sea areas that contain at least one unit the passes the filters. When the Empty filter is On, all ports and sea areas are eligible for being shown when cycling through them. Note that there are 81 sea areas and a similar number of ports, so it can take a while before you get to the one you want when the Empty filter is On.

To speed up that process, you can use the Find Port or Find Sea Area buttons. Those bring up an alphabetically sorted list of names for each location type. You can then immediately choose the port or sea area to replace what is currently being shown in the selected column. You can also use the Clear Column button to blank out a column. Using all 7 of these buttons you can define exactly which columns are displayed on the NRS form.

And once you have created the display the way you like it, you can save it by right clicking on the label Displays. That brings up a menu which contains the option Save Display. After you have chosen a name for your display, the settings for the focus and column selections are stored to disk and the display name is placed under the word Displays. You can then create more named displays, with up to 12 different displays listed under the label Displays. The advantage of having displays listed by name on the NRS form is that you can switch between them by simply clicking on the display name.

REMOVE `AND` FROM FIRST SENTENCE

Other menu options available for controlling displays are: Restore, Rename, Delete (from the list of names, not from the disk), and Redefine. Restore is great when you are first learning to play MWIF, since there are dozens of displays already saved to disk by experienced players. You do not have to create your own from scratch. Redefine lets you modify a display and then have those changes made permanent by writing them out to the disk file.

AMEND LAST SENTENCE - ...PERMANENT BY SAVING TO THE DISK FILE

The Carriers row includes regular carriers, light carriers, and ASW carriers. It has two numbers shown. The first is the number of carriers present and the second, which follows the colon, is the number of carrier air units aboard those carriers. Obviously, the second number is only shown when the optional rule for Carrier Planes is being used.

The Cruisers row includes heavy, light, and auxiliary cruisers, plus ASW escorts. Note that this count includes these unit types even if they are carrying divisions.

The Naval Transport row includes naval transport, amphibious units, and the Queens. This is a raw capacity number and does not differentiate whether the transport is empty or full.

AMEND START SECOND SENTENCE - THE "CARRIED" VALUE REPRESENTS THE RAW CAPACITY.......

When you are looking sea areas, the # Carried row contains two numbers: the number of units that are capable of invading, followed by the number which can not currently invade. This distinction takes into account the unit type of the transport, the unit type of the cargo, and the sea area section box. It does not take into consideration weather or the presence of invadable hexes adjacent to the sea area.

IN FIRST SENTENCE ABOVE ADD AT BETWEEN LOOKING AND SEA
AMEND CAN NOT WITH CANNOT
LAST SENTENCE ADD - THE - BEFORE WEATHER

The only other unique aspect to sea areas, is the Sea Boxes row at the top of the column. This simply lists which sea area section boxes are occupied - given the current filter settings!

Bear in mind that the Naval Review Summary form is designed to provide summary statistics for an overview. You will almost always want to delve deeper into specifics for a port or sea area using the NRD form and/or the detailed map. Other information sources for on-map naval units are Flyouts and the Units in Hex panel.

STEVE - ONE QUESTION ON THE PARAGRAGH BELOW - WHAT IS OR WHERE IS THE SET UP FORM?

Another common use for these forms is to bring up the NRD for a port or sea area section box and then create a task force from the units in the selected port/sea area section box. It’s not possible to create a task force using units from different sections of a sea area, since the rules forbid them from moving as a group. The setup form has a button to initiate this task where the NRD form contains the units in the setup tray’s current location (e.g., US West Coast) and the TFD is placed alongside the NRD so you can create a new task force from the units to be setup. The advantage here is that once you have defined your task force, you merely place the single TF unit on the map, instead of having to place all the individual units.





(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1114
RE: Memo - 3/29/2008 7:39:36 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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Robert,

Thanks - but I'll only use a few of the suggestions you gave.

Some of what you advise me to change have to do with cadence of speech (e.g., it's, can not, often are) and that is how I would say it if I were having a conversation with someone. Is it perfect English? Perhaps not. But perfect English strikes me as borderline boring. The errors you pointed out (e.g., missing words) I will certainly fix.

I'll add a sentence or modifying clause about using "the Setup Tray when setting up your units". I do not want to explain that in detail here, since the reader should be very familiar with the Setup Tray by the time he is reading about the NRS form.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1115
RE: Memo - 3/29/2008 9:34:25 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Steve

No problem - the object of the exercise was certainly not English 101 - although given the multi-national audience this game obviously attracts, my concern is that using colloquial English may perhaps serve to confuse. Having said that, most Norwegians, Dutch, Swedish etc I`ve met seem to speak better English than many English nowadays

No - the main aim was for me to make sense of what is being written so that I can understand how the game is developing and what is being achieved by each form and how this all fits with the overall game. With that in mind I found the reference to the set up form unclear - but if that is to be covered elsewhere then apologies. The paragraph on the Focus options also took a few re-reads - hence my comments - but am happy to accept I was just being a bit thick

One thing I had not appreciated until reading the form was that a player can save a number of displays - so does not need to go constantly cycling through the ports or sea areas. How is a saved file updated? E.g if I save a file with 8 UK ports and then two turns later, the units within those ports have changed, how is the file updated?


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1116
RE: Memo - 3/29/2008 9:45:34 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Steve

No problem - the object of the exercise was certainly not English 101 - although given the multi-national audience this game obviously attracts, my concern is that using colloquial English may perhaps serve to confuse. Having said that, most Norwegians, Dutch, Swedish etc I`ve met seem to speak better English than many English nowadays

No - the main aim was for me to make sense of what is being written so that I can understand how the game is developing and what is being achieved by each form and how this all fits with the overall game. With that in mind I found the reference to the set up form unclear - but if that is to be covered elsewhere then apologies. The paragraph on the Focus options also took a few re-reads - hence my comments - but am happy to accept I was just being a bit thick

One thing I had not appreciated until reading the form was that a player can save a number of displays - so does not need to go constantly cycling through the ports or sea areas. How is a saved file updated? E.g if I save a file with 8 UK ports and then two turns later, the units within those ports have changed, how is the file updated?



I just store the column selections, not the actual units. Changing any check box/filter causes all the columns to be updated. The same is true when the form first appears or when you restore a Saved NRS.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1117
RE: Memo - 3/30/2008 12:40:43 AM   
Plainian

 

Posts: 212
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This may look a bit obtuse but just bear with me I'm Scottish. I've been trying to follow the construction of the NRS menu. I can't see the scroll left/right normal windows icon but I can see buttons saying Next and Previous etc so I guess thats what we use if there are more ports/sea areas to display.

The NRS draft mentions 8 but I can see only 6 sea areas/ports displayed in the mock ups above?

The aim looks to be to display as many ports/sea areas as possible to avoid scrolling?

So what if we just display 4, have the names displayed in full, if its a port then have the port symbol below, and then a next/previous to scroll right/left?

If there is a scrolling function why are we scrunching things up?


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1118
RE: Memo - 3/30/2008 4:04:45 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

This may look a bit obtuse but just bear with me I'm Scottish. I've been trying to follow the construction of the NRS menu. I can't see the scroll left/right normal windows icon but I can see buttons saying Next and Previous etc so I guess thats what we use if there are more ports/sea areas to display.

The NRS draft mentions 8 but I can see only 6 sea areas/ports displayed in the mock ups above?

The aim looks to be to display as many ports/sea areas as possible to avoid scrolling?

So what if we just display 4, have the names displayed in full, if its a port then have the port symbol below, and then a next/previous to scroll right/left?

If there is a scrolling function why are we scrunching things up?



Posts 1097 and 1098 show the NRS form. If you are counting only 6, then maybe you are looking at the Naval Review Details form? The NRD show individual units. The NRS just shows number within the columns.

Scrolling isn't really best because you often will want to see 'sets' of ports and sea areas. Some sets are: the 3 sea areas in the Med, the sea areas that span the North Atlantic bringing resources from the Americas to the United Kingdom, or those that Japan is using to keep all its units in the Pacfiic in supply. A similar concern is true for the ports: all the ports adjacent to or within one MP of the North Sea, for instance.

Given that there are dozens of occupied ports and sea areas, I want the player to be able to select exactly which ports and sea areas are shown simultaneously. If you include empty ones, the are 81 sea areas and (probably) over 100 ports on the map. Scrolling through them, even 8 at a time, is likely to result in only some of the ones you want to examine being visible at the same time.

As an example, you see that a sea area in an important convoy pipeline is unprotected. You immediately want to know: (1) who can attack this weakness, and (2) who can be sent to give it some protection. Scrolling through a long list of ports and sea areas would take time.

The First/Previous/Next/Last and Find buttons let you change individual columns, rather than having all 8 columns change using scrolling.




_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Plainian)
Post #: 1119
RE: Memo - 3/30/2008 6:16:56 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline
Shannon, I have a suggestion:

Instead of showing  
CVs:CVPs

Show
CVs: CVs without CVPs
5:0    Would mean 5 CVs all loaded with CVPs
10:3   Would mean 10 CVs, 7 loaded with CVPs and 3 without.
I'd bet that, that's really the information that the players want; and you would have a lot fewer situations of two double digit numbers.

You also avoid a potential misunderstanding when using the optional rule allowing for more than one CVP on a CV.  That is seeing 6:6, when in reality it is really 6 CVs, 2 loaded with one CVP, 2 loaded with two CVPs and 2 without any CVPs.

< Message edited by Taxman66 -- 3/30/2008 6:19:03 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1120
RE: Memo - 3/30/2008 8:18:05 PM   
Mziln


Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Shannon, I have a suggestion:

Instead of showing
CVs:CVPs

Show
CVs: CVs without CVPs
5:0 Would mean 5 CVs all loaded with CVPs
10:3 Would mean 10 CVs, 7 loaded with CVPs and 3 without.
I'd bet that, that's really the information that the players want; and you would have a lot fewer situations of two double digit numbers.

You also avoid a potential misunderstanding when using the optional rule allowing for more than one CVP on a CV. That is seeing 6:6, when in reality it is really 6 CVs, 2 loaded with one CVP, 2 loaded with two CVPs and 2 without any CVPs.


To avoid confusion CVP are now called carrier air units.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


Here is where I am currently.

The Focus box is new and lets the player choose from one of the 3 layouts. I'll finish Both first and then do the other 2.

Note that the carriers row now shows the # of carrier air units too, following the colon.

I have added a Clear Column button, so the player can insert a blank column if he wants.

The filters are now working (except for Empty), which is why the # of ports with units is 12 but only 6 occupied ports are listed. That's because the CW only has units in those 6 ports. The same is true for the sea areas.

Displays is how I am going to handle Saved Display/configurations of columns. What is being saved are the 8 ports, 8 sea areas, and the Focus setting. If the focus is on the ports, then no sea areas will be saved. When a saved display/configuration is restored, I'll use whatever the current filter settings are and instantiate the columns according to which ports and sea areas have been saved. Oh, and the focus setting will be restored too.

Under the word Display there is room for the names of about a dozen different Saved Displays. There are none listed in this screen shot - more code needs to be written first. Left clicking on the name of a Saved Display will restore it. Right clicking on the word Displays will let you bring one in from disk, and save the current one. Right clicking on one of the Saved Display names will let you Rename, Delete, or Redefine it. For the last, the current setting will override whatever had been saved before under the given name.


_____________________________


(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 1121
RE: Memo - 3/30/2008 10:01:39 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Shannon, I have a suggestion:

Instead of showing  
CVs:CVPs

Show
CVs: CVs without CVPs
5:0    Would mean 5 CVs all loaded with CVPs
10:3   Would mean 10 CVs, 7 loaded with CVPs and 3 without.
I'd bet that, that's really the information that the players want; and you would have a lot fewer situations of two double digit numbers.

You also avoid a potential misunderstanding when using the optional rule allowing for more than one CVP on a CV.  That is seeing 6:6, when in reality it is really 6 CVs, 2 loaded with one CVP, 2 loaded with two CVPs and 2 without any CVPs.

Yeah, the multiple air units per carrier makes for a mess when trying to give a single statistic.

I am trying to keep the numbers to be 'positive', by which I mean they indicate the presence of units. Your suggestion would have the number indicate the absence of units. A subtle difference, but it's the type of thing I worry about when trying to achieve a 'standard' for how information is presented.

I thought about giving some kind of capacity number, equal to the number of additional air units that could be added to the carriers (i.e., open 'slots'). But then you really want to know what carrier air units are available/unassigned and their class number.

In the end I figured I'd just go with the # of carrier air units, since that is an easy to understand number, and it lets you know how many units you can put in the air for naval air operations.

Which is not to say that the problem you mention is minor or somehow miraculously goes away. My guess is that players will know when they are double loading their carriers so that 6:6 means there is room available, regardless of whether the 6 carriers air units are assigned two to a carrier (with 3 empty carriers) or one per carrier (so 6 carriers are half full).

Here I will bail out with what is becoming an all too common refrain: for more detailed information the player is going to have to look at the NRD or the map. The NRS can only do so much towards presenting the finer details. For this question, the NRD gives immediate and definitive information; you will know which carriers have which air units and whether there is additional capacity avaialble.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 1122
RE: Memo - 3/31/2008 12:00:36 AM   
Taxman66


Posts: 1665
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From: Columbia, MD. USA
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It was just an idea.  As I said I think the biggest issue is seeing 6:6 and not realizing that some the CV's are empty.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1123
RE: Memo - 3/31/2008 12:33:38 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

It was just an idea.  As I said I think the biggest issue is seeing 6:6 and not realizing that some the CV's are empty.

I need ideas from other people. Just bouncing things around in my own head often misses stuff.

Even if I only use 10% of the things offered up by the forum members, those 10% really improve the quality of the game.

For proof of the above statements, you only need to look at the first version of the naval review summary form in this thread.

EDIT: See post 1021 for a version from last week.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 3/31/2008 12:37:25 AM >


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 1124
RE: Memo - 3/31/2008 12:42:14 PM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

It was just an idea. As I said I think the biggest issue is seeing 6:6 and not realizing that some the CV's are empty.

I need ideas from other people. Just bouncing things around in my own head often misses stuff.


I don't see it as an issue really.

In the Naval Review Summary you are seeing brute numbers. But right alongside it you will be seeing the Naval Review Details which will show how the carriers are loaded out, and carriers without air units will stick out like a sore thumb.

The biggest problem you have, IMO, is that if you feel that it is possible to have 10 or more carriers in a port or region than you must have enough room in the NRS to accommodate double digit numbers for air units as well... meaning you need 5 spaces (i.e., "10:20"). Due to the font, I don't think that will fit in the box.

Or will it?

Ray (alias Lava)

< Message edited by Lava -- 3/31/2008 12:43:41 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1125
RE: Memo - 3/31/2008 7:25:21 PM   
hakon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

But why would so many be in 1 port or sea area? Yes, you can achieve that, but it does seem to be a lot in one place. To start with, wouldn't some of them be in the Atlantic? And if you have that many, wouldn't you try to go after more than 1 objective?

But people play the game different ways.


My impression is that it is very common to concentrate the US carrier force. Yes, maybe a few carriers will be in the Atlantic or the Med, but usually that is limited to just a couple, with the number of slow BB often being much greater there. (Naval air is much easier to cover with land based air in the atlantic and the med.)

In the pacific, there is not so much reason to spread out the carriers. Specifically, spreading out reduces the capability to heavily contest once sea zone in a combined. And, if there is a big naval battle, you really want ALL your carriers to be there, since air to air battles favour the side with more aircraft so heavily. So, generally, it is very common to see all American CV in a single major port after return to base. (Some turns, they may go after different objectives, of course, but spreading them out too thin can make you quite exposed to a Japanse attack.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1126
RE: Memo - 3/31/2008 7:54:12 PM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Shannon, I have a suggestion:

Instead of showing  
CVs:CVPs

Show
CVs: CVs without CVPs
5:0    Would mean 5 CVs all loaded with CVPs
10:3   Would mean 10 CVs, 7 loaded with CVPs and 3 without.
I'd bet that, that's really the information that the players want; and you would have a lot fewer situations of two double digit numbers.

You also avoid a potential misunderstanding when using the optional rule allowing for more than one CVP on a CV.  That is seeing 6:6, when in reality it is really 6 CVs, 2 loaded with one CVP, 2 loaded with two CVPs and 2 without any CVPs.

I don't like that.
I think that the original idea of Steve is better. It is simpler, that's why it is better.
Showing empty carriers don't show you carrier of class 4 loaded with class 2 unit anyway, so seeing the empty carriers don't help either.
So, showing the actual number of CVP is a better help, as when you have 6 CV, you know that you'll have them filled if you have 6-12 CVP. If you have about 6, you'll look at the detailled status to see the actual units. If you have 12, you know you can't do better.

(in reply to Taxman66)
Post #: 1127
RE: Memo - 3/31/2008 8:15:32 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

It was just an idea. As I said I think the biggest issue is seeing 6:6 and not realizing that some the CV's are empty.

I need ideas from other people. Just bouncing things around in my own head often misses stuff.


I don't see it as an issue really.

In the Naval Review Summary you are seeing brute numbers. But right alongside it you will be seeing the Naval Review Details which will show how the carriers are loaded out, and carriers without air units will stick out like a sore thumb.

The biggest problem you have, IMO, is that if you feel that it is possible to have 10 or more carriers in a port or region than you must have enough room in the NRS to accommodate double digit numbers for air units as well... meaning you need 5 spaces (i.e., "10:20"). Due to the font, I don't think that will fit in the box.

Or will it?

Ray (alias Lava)

I'll just reduce the font size so it fits (but is harder to read).

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 1128
RE: Memo - 3/31/2008 8:22:36 PM   
hakon

 

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What I often do in this kind of situation, is to dynamically change the font size to make the text fit. While a bit ad hoc, it usually works quite well to have double digit number appear in a slightly smaller font than single digit numbers.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1129
RE: Memo - 3/31/2008 8:27:53 PM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

So, generally, it is very common to see all American CV in a single major port after return to base.


Not a big Pacific War historian, and don't mean to hijack the thread, but I thought the US Carrier Force was at sea throughout most of the war. Thus, while you might have a few in Ports the majority will be at sea.

I think...

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 1130
RE: Memo - 3/31/2008 9:49:10 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

So, generally, it is very common to see all American CV in a single major port after return to base.


Not a big Pacific War historian, and don't mean to hijack the thread, but I thought the US Carrier Force was at sea throughout most of the war. Thus, while you might have a few in Ports the majority will be at sea.

I think...

Ray (alias Lava)


All carriers, except ASW Carriers, usually return to base at the end of each turn. So, they start the turn in a port and then go to sea. At the end of the turn they go back to port.

_____________________________

Steve

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(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 1131
RE: Memo - 4/1/2008 4:16:27 AM   
*Lava*


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

All carriers, except ASW Carriers, usually return to base at the end of each turn. So, they start the turn in a port and then go to sea. At the end of the turn they go back to port.


Oh...

Then you are going to need a prompt which says "Are you sure you don't want to move your carriers?" at the end of movement.



Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1132
RE: Memo - 4/1/2008 5:21:59 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

All carriers, except ASW Carriers, usually return to base at the end of each turn. So, they start the turn in a port and then go to sea. At the end of the turn they go back to port.


Oh...

Then you are going to need a prompt which says "Are you sure you don't want to move your carriers?" at the end of movement.



Ray (alias Lava)

Not really.

Each turn has mulitple impulses and the player can choose which naval units to move in each impulse. Once the units are moved to sea, they are effectively 'stuck' in the the sea area where they end their movement until the "return to base phase".

An important part of the tactics for moving your naval fores is deciding which ones you want to send out at the start of the turn (first impulse) and which ones you want to hold back to send out later, in response to what the enemy does.

There are a lot of other things to take into consideration too.

My main point is that it is rare for a player to move all of his naval units during an impulse, so prompting him about unmoved units would be annoying. He has the ability to cycle through unmoved units (this is true for all unit types all the time) if he wants to make sure he hasn't forgotten to move some.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 1133
RE: Memo - 4/1/2008 10:59:32 PM   
Sewerlobster


Posts: 330
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From: Reading, Pa. USA
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quote:


My main point is that it is rare for a player to move all of his naval units during an impulse, so prompting him about unmoved units would be annoying. He has the ability to cycle through unmoved units (this is true for all unit types all the time) if he wants to make sure he hasn't forgotten to move some.


I have to agree it would be annoying. At some point the player is going to have to be responsible for his units, and for me at least, the natural course of playing WiF is to move the naval units as Shannon has programed it. Realism aside, the game's mechanics require units to return to port even if this is an abstraction of what carriers really did.


< Message edited by SewerStarFish -- 4/1/2008 11:00:31 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1134
RE: Memo - 4/1/2008 11:31:24 PM   
composer99


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Strictly speaking naval units, unless they are in the 0-box (convoys/ASW excepted), can stay out at sea at the end of the turn.

That said, unless they are convoy escort units, usually they don't because there are advantages to being in high boxes (required to pull off invasions more easily, better for naval searches incl. port strikes, better for shore bombardment).

So to port they go at the end of the turn and back out they go later.

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Post #: 1135
RE: Memo - 4/2/2008 12:13:07 AM   
*Lava*


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It's okay dudes!

I'm kewl with abstractions and the "prompt" about the carriers was actually a joke.

Let's not get sidetracked.

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 1136
RE: Memo - 4/2/2008 6:28:32 PM   
composer99


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I could use a prompt asking me "Are you sure you want to do this?" right before I launch an attack of questionable value....

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Post #: 1137
RE: Memo - 4/2/2008 8:17:19 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I could use a prompt asking me "Are you sure you want to do this?" right before I launch an attack of questionable value....

Or make any decision in the game?

I would prefer a voice-over: "What! Really? Well, if that's what you want to do..." Or perhaps just a low, drawn out groan, like Lurch use to make in the Adams Family: "Uhhhhh". Though I am sure you would prefer slow, ominous music in a minor key and low register.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 1138
RE: Memo - 4/6/2008 9:23:12 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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I am revamping the air-to-air combat form. Here is my current version.

This form does a lot, so it is rather crowded, but I believe it works pretty well.

1 - The top 4 panels show lists of units (zoom 5) with the current leading unit in each section at zoom 8 - facing off against each other.

2 - Under each side is a unit data panel for the unit last under the cursor for that side.

3 - Here the Axis is on the left and the Allies on the right, which means that the Axis is the phasing/attacking side. If the Allies were the phasing side, they would be on the left. This is strategic bombardment, by the way.

4 - The center horizontal bar shows the progress through the air-to-air combat sub-phase. I think of these as sub-sub-phases. Right now the setting is on Choose Combat. That isn't quite right, since there is only 1 combat location (Changsha), but I haven't written the code to automatically skip subsubphases yet.

5 - The map shows the selected combat location. If there were more than 1, the player could click on different locations and have the map change. At the same time the unit lists at the top would change, and the information on the Results from Current Combat would refresh too. The idea is for the player to be able to review the different air-to-air combats before selecting one. The side with the most bombers in the air gets to choose the combat; and the major power within that side with the most bombers in the air is the decision maker.

6 - The prompt message is missing. It is below the subsubphase bar and should say " Choose which air-to-air combat to fight next." When the player has selected which one he wnats, he clicks on the button Combat Chosen.

7 - Once a combat is chosen, the players get to rearrange their units in the panels at the top, using drag and drop. This subsubphase should also be skipped since there is 1 unit or less in each panel.

8 - After the players have rearanged their units they click on "Axis Ready" or "Allies Ready". The program relabels the Combat Chosen button according to which sied you are on. Then the program can roll the dice and complete one row of the Results table: Die and Result.

9 - The next subsubphase is for choose which unit to abort/destroy/clear through depending on the Result. Then the 2nd die roll is made and the Results table is completed for the second row/ combat round. Note that the Axis row may be done after the Allied row. that would be the case here where the Allies are defending and roll their dice first.

10 - Once a round of combat is completed the unit panel at teh bottom is filled in with the units that have been affected so far: Destroyed/Aborted/Cleared through. That panel is also zoom 5 but it is a little larger to be able to show the result text underneath each unit.

11 Then the subsubphase advances to Atacker aborts or stays followed by Defender Aborts or Stays. if both stay and combat is still possible, another tound is fought, starting with the rearrange units subphases.

Whew! There is a reason this has taken me 4 days and I'm not done yet.




Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1139
RE: Memo - 4/6/2008 11:54:50 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
4 - The center horizontal bar shows the progress through the air-to-air combat sub-phase. I think of these as sub-sub-phases. Right now the setting is on Choose Combat. That isn't quite right, since there is only 1 combat location (Changsha), but I haven't written the code to automatically skip subsubphases yet.

"Choose location" would be better, as "Choose combat" makes me think that you can choose the combat nature, as you choose in Naval Combat.

quote:

5 - The map shows the selected combat location. If there were more than 1, the player could click on different locations and have the map change. At the same time the unit lists at the top would change, and the information on the Results from Current Combat would refresh too. The idea is for the player to be able to review the different air-to-air combats before selecting one. The side with the most bombers in the air gets to choose the combat; and the major power within that side with the most bombers in the air is the decision maker.

I don't understand the choices.
Normaly, it is the active side that chooses the order in which to fight air to air combats, not the side with the most bombers in the air.
Also it seems to me, that the "decision maker" should be the owner of the front fighter (or bomber if there is no front fighter), as this is this air unit that is "fighting".
But maybe I have not understood what the "decision maker" or the "choose the order" meant.

Edit : Hey, I only put kind of criticism comments, but let me also say that this Form is a REAL improvement. Knowing the results from current combat in a tale like form, and the affected units is a real improvement.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 4/6/2008 11:57:50 AM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1140
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