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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Pilot limit issue?

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RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 1:52:58 AM

dereck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

Don't get me wrong, if I had a save, I'd send it. Just in this case, I'm not sure that it's fair for them to ask for one. It's a question as to the game design itself. This should really be a simple check, what happens when you exceed the design intent ?

Well, here's the PM I got from Joel Billings so it sounds like they may not be sure what is causing it:

quote:

Can you send a save to 2by3@2by3games.com. Gary says only pilots of note should be saved, so this would seem to be a bug.

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Post #: 31

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 6:50:08 AM

bilbow

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I'm wondering about something as I read this thread. Freeboy and Zeta 16 recently completed a campaign game to mid-1945 where combined air loses were over 57,000. Freeboy (allies) alone lost over the 30,000 that has been mentioned as a limit, plus he must have had thousands more on map at the end.

How does this reconcile to the observed issue/bug? I'm missing something.

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Post #: 32

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 7:02:15 AM

dereck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bilbow

I'm wondering about something as I read this thread. Freeboy and Zeta 16 recently completed a campaign game to mid-1945 where combined air loses were over 57,000. Freeboy (allies) alone lost over the 30,000 that has been mentioned as a limit, plus he must have had thousands more on map at the end.

How does this reconcile to the observed issue/bug? I'm missing something.

This is what Zeta16 told me about one of his games when I asked if he had a save he could send to Matrix:

quote:

It has not happened in a few game months. I could add no pilots, but after I shot close to 1000 planes in a few days I could them again. Sorry I have none of these saves left.

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Post #: 33

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 12:29:19 PM

michaelm75au

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Note that pilots are killed and replaced in the 30K array. I have see this, especially in the early stages of the game.
But at some point, between who is in the Top Pilots PLUS in air groups PLUS whose on leave PLUS MIA PLUS KIA PLUS .. exceeds the 30K total.

Michael

(in reply to dereck)

Post #: 34

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 3:27:05 PM

Speedysteve

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Hi Michael,

I was hoping you'd post your thoughts in here.

Just so I get this straight:

KIA pilots are REPLACED in the 30K limit EXCEPT those on the top pilots list + the MIA + WIA?

In short does every pilot on the top pilot list, regardless of status, remain in the 30K?

Regards,

Steven

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Post #: 35

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 4:20:19 PM

michaelm75au

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From what I can see, the pilot details (like name, group, missions, kills, expericence, etc) are stored in the 30K pilot array.
So in order to show up in the Top Pilot list with those details, the pilot needs to stay in the 30K array.

Now, pilots definitely do come and go from this array. I have done comparision between turns and have seen slots start out assigned to one pilot/group and end up the next turn with a different name/group. And yes the previous pilot was one of the casualties from the air combat that turn. So it does work.

However, in one of the saves I have examined where the 30K pilots were all allocated, I have noticed the following.
(1) Pilots who had a delay of 9999 but assigned to some group were included. Thus wastes a usable slot. This sort of problem can be aleviated by the scenario designer removing pilots with a delay of 9999.

(2) Pilots have been assigned to group numbers that either don't exist or never enter play. Again it wastes usables slots. This sort of problem can be aleviated by the scenario designer.

(3) Some groups have way too many pilots assigned to them. One example; 380th BG which has a max planes of 48 but has 166 pilots assigned to it. But not all the the pilots appear in the group's roster. A method of trickling back excess pilots to the pool would help keep the pilots available.

(1) and (2) I have mentioned before. And I think in most of the recent modded scenarios, the pilot database usually has been left blank. The AI is allowed to create and use up all the available slots, so these points are not of major concern. Some of the early modded scenarios, I think, have experienced this problem before we knew the ramifications of changing/inserting/deleting slots in the database files.

For point (3), there are a couple of code changes I think would be simple to introduce:

(a) One method would be to move the most inexperienced pilots back to the pool, just by adding to the pool number available. It would mean that the pilot would get the "pool" expericence of the pilot pool at that time. I think this was done for UV in last patch.

(b) Another method could be to "free" up the inexperienced pilots by transferring them to a similar group(s) which was under staffed. This would not draw down on replacement pilots but would spread out existing pilots, if needed, and maintain their current experience level.

Michael

(in reply to Speedysteve)

Post #: 36

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 5:01:51 PM

Speedysteve

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As per norm Michael excellent stuff. Many thanks for that. Have you been in touch with the dev's re: this?

Steven

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Post #: 37

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 5:10:41 PM

dereck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm
(1) and (2) I have mentioned before. And I think in most of the recent modded scenarios, the pilot database usually has been left blank. The AI is allowed to create and use up all the available slots, so these points are not of major concern. Some of the early modded scenarios, I think, have experienced this problem before we knew the ramifications of changing/inserting/deleting slots in the database files.

What ramifications? Are you saying that any custom scenario where changes were made trigger this problem?

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Post #: 38

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 7:26:08 PM

Sardaukar

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I think he means that in some earlier mods pilot database was too filled which did cause problems. I might be wrong, though

. What I understand from the post for modding is that it's beneficial to leave pilot database blank ( or is it ?).

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Post #: 39

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 7:35:14 PM

dereck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I think he means that in some earlier mods pilot database was too filled which did cause problems. I might be wrong, though . What I understand from the post for modding is that it's beneficial to leave pilot database blank ( or is it ?).

So if you're making a custom scenario are you saying it would behoove you to empty(?) the existing pilots from the database? I checked and I show only 3,990 pilots in it out of 19,999 slots.

This is confusing me and frustrating since my game has come to a grinding halt I have nothing to do but ponder things while I twiddle my thumbs.

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Post #: 40

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 7:42:36 PM

ADavidB

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quote:

This is confusing me and frustrating since my game has come to a grinding halt I have nothing to do but ponder things while I twiddle my thumbs.

The lesson to be learned here is that, fundamentally, you can't make custom scenarios. The game engine and data base are quirky enough as is to make it almost impossible for the official maintenance folks to keep it running and make changes. The moment you start you to fool around you step into the Twilight Zone and your hopes of keeping the game running are slim-to-none...

Sorry...

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to dereck)

Post #: 41

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 8:52:00 PM

Don Bowen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

quote:

This is confusing me and frustrating since my game has come to a grinding halt I have nothing to do but ponder things while I twiddle my thumbs.

The lesson to be learned here is that, fundamentally, you can't make custom scenarios. The game engine and data base are quirky enough as is to make it almost impossible for the official maintenance folks to keep it running and make changes. The moment you start you to fool around you step into the Twilight Zone and your hopes of keeping the game running are slim-to-none...

Sorry...

Dave Baranyi

I'd say you are about half-right. There have been a number of bear-traps that have caught and hurt custom scenario builders. There are also a very large number of changes that worked as desired and were therefore not "posted about" on the forum.

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Post #: 42

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 9:47:17 PM

dereck

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quote:

So if you're making a custom scenario are you saying it would behoove you to empty(?) the existing pilots from the database? I checked and I show only 3,990 pilots in it out of 19,999 slots.

I repeat my question hoping to get an answer to it please.

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Post #: 43

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 10:02:28 PM

Don Bowen

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It appears that pilots that are defined in the database and are properly assigned to squadrons are OK.

Any pilot that is defined in the database but not properly assigned is a wasted slot:

9999 availability
assigned to null or invalid airgroup
too many pilot too a single airgroup (not sure about how this one works)

Clearing all the pilot slots will obviously remove all of these possible problems and WITP will have to screw up pilots on it's own.

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Post #: 44

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/27/2005 11:28:56 PM

dereck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

It appears that pilots that are defined in the database and are properly assigned to squadrons are OK.

Any pilot that is defined in the database but not properly assigned is a wasted slot:

9999 availability

assigned to null or invalid airgroup

too many pilot too a single airgroup (not sure about how this one works)

Clearing all the pilot slots will obviously remove all of these possible problems and WITP will have to screw up pilots on it's own.

I hate to be dense but is that a "yes" or a "no" to my original question?

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Post #: 45

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/28/2005 12:25:23 AM

Don Bowen

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quote:

So if you're making a custom scenario are you saying it would behoove you to empty(?) the existing pilots from the database?

quote:

I hate to be dense but is that a "yes" or a "no" to my original question?

It's neither a yes nor a no.

You could clear them all and accept only "generated" pilots at "generated" values. That would solve part of the problem but would also discard "quality" pilots.

You could also check the assignments, correct errors, and retain the specific "quality" pilots. That would also solve part of the problem.

No matter what, you are still limited to 30000 pilots. Either fix would just prevent wasted slots.

(in reply to dereck)

Post #: 46

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 9/28/2005 12:35:04 PM

michaelm75au

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Hi

as Don said.

You can do customised scenarios using your own pilots. You just need to be careful.

What has happened in the past is that someone customises a scenario and deletes an air group by pressing the DELETE key in editor. This removes the group, but drags up all the slots below it. [This and INSERT were the usual source of most modding problem I think.]
Now the pilots in the database are misaligned with their original group #s - the editor does NOT go and adjusts the pilot's assigned group slot# to match.

Michael

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 47

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/12/2008 6:08:47 AM

JustJoe

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I bumped this thread to help in the discussion we are having in the Tech Forum on this subject.

What are all of you doing as a work around concerning this 30K cap on plane slots in the game?

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RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/12/2008 7:02:18 AM

Feinder

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I believe part of a fix was that the game goes thru and recycles any slot occupied by a dead pilot with less than 5 kills (or something like that). Being dead, they obviously serve no purpose. Given their existance on the "top pilots" list, you can see that it does keep track of -some- dead pilots (your better ones). But I -think- that if they're dead and not aces, their slot gets recycled.

-F-

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RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/12/2008 6:39:21 PM

rtrapasso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I believe part of a fix was that the game goes thru and recycles any slot occupied by a dead pilot with less than 5 kills (or something like that). Being dead, they obviously serve no purpose. Given their existance on the "top pilots" list, you can see that it does keep track of -some- dead pilots (your better ones). But I -think- that if they're dead and not aces, their slot gets recycled.

-F-

This brings up some hazy memories... there were a series of fixes introduced around 1.7xx, iirc to try to fix this. However, this apparently has NOT fixed all of the problems. i think it is actually worse in stock since stock has much higher levels of aircraft available, and thus causes more pilots to be "in play".

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Post #: 50

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/12/2008 6:45:44 PM

jwilkerson

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Seems like this discussion might be intertwining two similar but different issues: plane slots and pilot slots.

We have had three games IIRC run into pilot slot issues we have successfully addressed two of the games via some hands on behind the sceens work. The issue will be addressed fully in AE.

I have not investigated a plane slot issue and the recent raising of that issue is the first I've heard of it.

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RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/12/2008 8:33:26 PM

rtrapasso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Seems like this discussion might be intertwining two similar but different issues: plane slots and pilot slots.

We have had three games IIRC run into pilot slot issues we have successfully addressed two of the games via some hands on behind the sceens work. The issue will be addressed fully in AE.

I have not investigated a plane slot issue and the recent raising of that issue is the first I've heard of it.

i agree - there are two separate problems described in the original Support Forum thread... the pilot slot problem, and another one...

i originally thought the second problem is the "disappearing aircraft" problem that has cropped up from time to time (and we have saves on that) - i didn't think it had anything to do with aircraft slots per se, but after rereading the posts, i am not sure.

EDIT: Going back and re-reading the original posts on the support forum, i am uncertain what is happening... it MIGHT be a new bug, but i think we need clarification... Specifically, this bit is new, and i hadn't heard of it before:

quote:

As the Japanese, I have plenty of planes but the game would not allow me to add any to my units saying there are no slots available.

JustJoe - can you provide a more complete description of what is going on? Screen shots might help...

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 4/12/2008 8:43:55 PM >

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RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/13/2008 9:29:56 AM

JustJoe

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Stock PBEM game using patch 1.806. Both me (Japan) and my opponent are having problems adding planes to our units. This started a few turns ago. When we try to add planes we get a pop up message stating: out of plane slots! We have since noticed that we can add aircraft on a turn that follows some aircraft being destroyed on the previous turn.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 53

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/13/2008 9:32:53 AM

JustJoe

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Not sure if this screen will help you guys determine whats up but it can't hurt.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 54

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/13/2008 8:54:50 PM

rtrapasso

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As mentioned in the Support Forum - this is a new one on me!

i'll check with the boss to see the next step - but save a (non-finalized) turn to send that exhibits this problem ... (i assume ALL turns are showing the problem at this point).

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RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/13/2008 10:04:05 PM

JustJoe

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I have a turn I can send to you that will have this problem. I suppose all of them do if you add enough planes to overcome the previous days losses. Currently, in the game, we are trying to get rid of as many non-essential aircraft as possible so we can keep playing. For example, we are loading up transport squadrons on ships and sailing them out to get sunk taking the planes down with them. I am turning all my second rate aircraft into Kamikaze units to go down in flames. We are also exploring the possibility of destroying the Soviet Air Force to get us some extra slots to use (speaking of which, is it possible to load Soviet planes on U.S. AKs?).

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RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/14/2008 12:42:53 AM

rtrapasso

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quote:

(speaking of which, is it possible to load Soviet planes on U.S. AKs?).

Not unless the Soviets are activated, i think... at least in the games i've tried it in, you can't send ANY ships (as Allies) to a Soviet port unless they are active.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 4/14/2008 12:44:02 AM >

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Post #: 57

RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/14/2008 3:31:09 AM

rtrapasso

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OK - we've identified the problem and it is on the "to be fixed" list for 1.807.

EDIT: For those interested, there are a few more comments in the "Out of Plane Slots" thread in the Support Forum.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1774576

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 4/14/2008 4:56:16 AM >

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RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/14/2008 10:14:00 AM

Nemo121

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Is there an "Out Of Pilots" issue also identified and for fixing?

I ran across this while testing EA. I wanted to check upgrade paths so set the game time for December 45 and began a game.... Hence there had been NO losses of planes or pilots at all. On-map were something like 12,000 Japanese planes and about 16,000 Allied ones... When I tried to add pilots to either side it just said "Out Of Pilots"... obviously there were loads in the pilot pools

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RE: Pilot limit issue? - 4/14/2008 2:00:33 PM

Adnan Meshuggi

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Hi Nemo,

with this you can easily creat a check

If you bring the date to 451207, make one turn and you can�t put pilots in, you have the problem

As i see it now, we need to half all planes (say one plane count for two :) ) or someone can fix it. But i doubt that it can be fixed now.

I still hope that AE solve this problem... it�s a true show-stopper. Esp. if combined with the loosing pilots-bug
So you loose a few thousend pilots, but can�t replace em :)

But, who needs airplanes... we have the army/navy

okay, just kidding

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Post #: 60