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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets >> RE: Only one scenario?

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RE: Only one scenario? - 5/5/2008 8:52:56 PM

Ola Berli

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The problem with this HercMighty is that he repeat himself on all threads! His point have been made. And he only have to not buy the game,
vola his problem is solved. Now we must move forward in anticipation for this coming game.

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Post #: 31

RE: Only one scenario? - 5/6/2008 10:43:53 AM

Howard7x

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

I think it's ok for Herc to voice his opinion - it's the first I've seen it as I don't visit Run5 unless I'm playing a game and have a question.

But had BF been supplied with more professionaly created scenarios and Carriers at War been released with the variety supplied in the current patch, well, I'd be playing them now but I'm not.

Indeed.

Herc, you keep right on voicing your concerns and opinions. Internet bytes are pretty much free, and fi people think you are over-stating your case, they are welcome to not read your posts.

Demands that people stop posting criticism is weak BS, IMO.

He has voiced his opinions on EVERY thread. Same thing, over and over and over and over again. Thats just negativity without even seeing the damn game play. Im sorry but until theres more detailed information on this game, the criticism is weak BS, IMO. He made his point, which i could understand... the first time around.

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Post #: 32

RE: Only one scenario? - 5/17/2008 8:44:10 PM

vonji

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SSG, like any other company, must make profits, I think, and my opinion is that they do like others, look for example the release of games like "dawn of war " from THQ : 3 or 4 games (very similar ) the game engine is the same, but they change the maps, scenarios and they introduce some new stuff.

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Post #: 33

RE: Only one scenario? - 5/17/2008 10:04:40 PM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonji

SSG, like any other company, must make profits, I think, and my opinion is that they do like others, look for example the release of games like "dawn of war " from THQ : 3 or 4 games (very similar ) the game engine is the same, but they change the maps, scenarios and they introduce some new stuff.

There's a difference between 'new game' and expansion pack (even stand alone ones). DoW had expansion packs.

(in reply to vonji)

Post #: 34

RE: Only one scenario? - 5/19/2008 12:26:00 AM

PzB74

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To get ahead of things: A suggestion for an expansion scenario for the Donets game engine ->

Operation Mars, November-December 1942

Another unknown but major battle were the Russians lost 330k dead. Also known as Zhukovs greatest defeat.
The battle is largely unknown to the common public. Would follow nicely along the lines of Disaster on the Donets.

Here's a link to a good book on the battle: Zhukov's Greatest Defeat: The Red Army's Epic Disaster in Operation Mars, 1942

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Post #: 35

RE: Only one scenario? - 6/14/2008 9:58:41 AM

Canuck_jp

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Well this release is certainly news to me! I've always been disappointed by the lack of scenarios in SSG's products, despite buying all of them so far (except for CAW). I won't say that I won't buy this one but I'm very disappointed that...what, two years after and there are only about 2 user made scenarios for it? I will wait for at least a year or two after release before picking up this new one and I'll only do that if I see plenty of user made scenarios.

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Post #: 36

RE: Only one scenario? - 6/16/2008 6:41:11 PM

Howard7x

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Canuck,

I too am dissapointed with the lack of scenarios but i think they have looked at the engine and made it something that they want to keep now for subsequent releases. Battlefront was such a leap and i dont think they were quite happy with how it turned out. So while this one has only 1 scenario + 10 virants, now all they have to do for the next games is make scenarios. There should in theory be alot more on the way. Plus the mystery virants idea sounds really exciting and hopefully will cut away the gamey part of wargames. Already knowing what each others objectives and units are at turn 1 takes away a huge part of what an operational wargame should be about. I just hope SSG can pull it off.

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Post #: 37

RE: Only one scenario? - 6/27/2008 10:54:39 PM

BlackSunshine

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I too own all of the DB/BF games and have to say that BF was a letdown to say the least.

The game was great, in fact I wrote a well received AAR on the forums here. The problem was the lack of scenarios and the complexity of the editor.

Will the editor in Kharkov be easy to use? If so, then you will see a wealth of user made scenarios, and infinite replayabilty. See TOAW and AT.

(in reply to Howard7x)

Post #: 38

RE: Only one scenario? - 6/28/2008 12:15:18 AM

sol_invictus

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I feel the same way. Bought all the SSG releases but BF was a letdown. I will also proceed warily with this release.

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Post #: 39

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/18/2008 4:28:10 AM

benpark

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I just purchased the game, as I like many of SSG's games.

I'm not sure the market will support this direction of one scenario at the full $50 price tag.
I'm certainly not (re-)buying the next "Across the Dneper" add on at these rates. I would pay for a game along the model of "Battles in Normandy", with one immense map, and several sub scenarios in the future.

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Post #: 40

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/18/2008 4:33:34 AM

Erik Rutins

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Ben,

Thanks for the feedback. The new Across the Dnepr, like the old one, will not be a full price release but will be in effect an expansion to Kharkov and priced accordingly.

If you haven't played through the Kharkov battle yet, let us know what you think once you have. I think it has about as much replayability with the AOOs as Battles in Normandy did.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 41

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/18/2008 8:57:20 AM

Neilster

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I like to support wargame producers but I'm hesitant to purchase this just yet. I think I'll wait. It should probably be of concern to SSG and Matrix that there are so many posts bemoaning the lack of content. Ultimately, in business the customer (or potential customer) is always right. I keep coming back to TOAW because of the massive amount of content and hence replayability.

I wonder whether it would have made more sense (as has been mentioned above) to have developed this as a game modelling all the battles around Kharkov in 41-43 and charged more for it. Such a title would become a wargaming "must have" and surely the extra development costs would be recouped by the higher price and greatly increased sales, not to mention the larger pool of people familiar with the system and hence more likely to purchase follow-on titles. Releasing reasonably priced add-ons won't help your bottom line if people don't have the game because they didn't feel it was worth it.

Surely, after (by your own admission) a bit of a miss with Battlefront, the onus was on SSG to go out of their way to offer great value with this title. Perhaps they have. I'll await developments.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 42

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/18/2008 2:15:33 PM

Tomus

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I'm getting this one definitely. I love the system and I love the scenarios. Thanks guys.

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Post #: 43

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/18/2008 11:10:57 PM

FroBodine

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quote:

On that note I can say that extra scenarios are already being worked on and we will look seriously at what is involved in updating our older titles.

Will some of these extra scenarios be playable against the AI, or strictly PBEM? Hopefully there will be some that can be played single-player.

Thanks!
-=Jeff

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)

Post #: 44

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/19/2008 2:16:22 AM

e_barkmann

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quote:

I think it has about as much replayability with the AOOs as Battles in Normandy did.

Having played the battle extensively over the last few months, both vs ai and pbem, I think Kharkov has far higher replayability than any previous battle and I am still discovering new approaches and strategies.

Just with trying differing AO variants alone, there is upwards of 100 different scenario combos within the one battle to choose from.

Not to mention other options such as random weather, unknown unit option (this is a great option, give it a try if you haven't already - makes both forces more unpredicable), AI weighting etc... it's all good.

cheers Chris

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RE: Only one scenario? - 7/19/2008 4:46:30 AM

Gregor_SSG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jglazier

quote:

On that note I can say that extra scenarios are already being worked on and we will look seriously at what is involved in updating our older titles.

Will some of these extra scenarios be playable against the AI, or strictly PBEM? Hopefully there will be some that can be played single-player.

Thanks!
-=Jeff

Any scenarios that SSG releases will have full AI supplied and mystery variants, like Kharkov. Just to clarify, Across the Dnepr will be released as a scenario add-on for Kharkov and will not be priced at the full game price.

As for value for money, that is somewhat subjective. What I can say is that Kharkov is a very exciting battle. Both sides have genuine chances to attack and cause grief to the opposition. The AI is our best yet. Every time I'm forced to place a less than optimum stack in a defensive position, (and that happens a lot, neither side has sufficient men for task), the AI sniffs it out, assaults it, forces a retreat and then calls in artillery and airstrikes to finish off the shell-shocked survivors with an efficiency that I couldn't improve upon.

I don't want to get all spreadsheety here, but on a dollar per entertainment hour basis, Kharkov is outstanding value.

Gregor

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Post #: 46

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/19/2008 5:07:14 AM

benpark

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I've played through one full game now. The AI is indeed a brutal opponent. The operational areas also make the game particularly tough (maybe a bit too much so).

As to the re-playability, could you comment on how these new features will lead to multiple games playing out differently in examples? (edit: Erik was good enough to do this write up in the "Introduction to Kharkov thread)

I'm sure that you guys are already started on the AtD scenario, but I'd like to see the other 2 Kharkov battles added (particularly as AI playable) as well.

< Message edited by benpark -- 7/19/2008 5:18:35 AM >

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Post #: 47

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/19/2008 11:43:33 AM

Grell

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

I'm afraid I have to agree. I would far rather have seen a 'stand alone expansion' to and partial 'relaunch' of the Battlefront system. I was very happy with that; it was just desperately in need of more scenarios, a higher profile, and a little TLC.

I'm going to take a lot of selling on this one. Admittedly, some of the new features look cool, but I really can't see enough to justify what looks like a big step backwards to a single campaign, albeit with 'variants'... no matter how meticulously researched it is. I don't disagree with Erik on such things casually, but I do here. Not enough content.. exactly why Battlefront never took off.

You summed up my thoughts on this quite nicely.

Regards,

Greg

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Post #: 48

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/19/2008 3:47:27 PM

Titanwarrior89

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Same here!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald

I feel the same way. Bought all the SSG releases but BF was a letdown. I will also proceed warily with this release.

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Post #: 49

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/19/2008 6:38:20 PM

Erik Rutins

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Do any of you play board wargames? Many of those also focus on one battle or campaign and cost more than computer wargames in many cases. Many mainstream console games come with 30-40 hours of gameplay total, at a sticker price above ours.

Kharkov is a professionally researched, designed and developed simulation of the 2nd Battle of Kharkov and this is not a simple straightforward battle. There are nearly ten armies involved on both sides and the fortunes of battle swing all over the place. Of all the previous SSG scenarios, this is probably the most interesting one (in my opinion). I think you'll easily get over 100 hours of gameplay out of this battle, more if you enjoy the AOO variants.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 7/19/2008 6:39:13 PM >

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RE: Only one scenario? - 7/19/2008 9:52:16 PM

jjax

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I think you'll easily get over 100 hours of gameplay out of this battle, more if you enjoy the AOO variants.

- Erik

That line made me laugh. I�m not sure how hardcore you would have to be to get 100 hours out of one battle.

Anyways, I'm not going to repeat the negatives already stated...but that doesn't mean I don�t agree with them !

< Message edited by jjax -- 7/19/2008 11:21:25 PM >

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RE: Only one scenario? - 7/19/2008 11:14:08 PM

HercMighty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Do any of you play board wargames? Many of those also focus on one battle or campaign and cost more than computer wargames in many cases.

The only board game I play is Advanced Squad Leader. All purchases I make are filled with more than one "scenario" and usually come with a lot of value for what you get. So if we want to keep brining this up and would like to talk apples to apples (Which I believe ASL and SSG games could be compared) by all means let's start a thread on it.

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RE: Only one scenario? - 7/19/2008 11:34:40 PM

Duck Doc

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Erik, great point! To embellish the point you make here's one that would be similar:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/theGamers/prodocscb.php

Notice the price tag.

I find it very interesting that this worn out thread keeps getting the grease while Mario's Beautiful Game!!! thread gets no acknowledgement. I am done having my say about SSG games because it has become clear my comments on this & the Run5 forum aren't welcome but I would hope somebody would thank Mario for his.

Obtw, as you can tell, I am really tired of the "only one scenario" whiners.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Do any of you play board wargames? Many of those also focus on one battle or campaign and cost more than computer wargames in many cases. Many mainstream console games come with 30-40 hours of gameplay total, at a sticker price above ours.

Kharkov is a professionally researched, designed and developed simulation of the 2nd Battle of Kharkov and this is not a simple straightforward battle. There are nearly ten armies involved on both sides and the fortunes of battle swing all over the place. Of all the previous SSG scenarios, this is probably the most interesting one (in my opinion). I think you'll easily get over 100 hours of gameplay out of this battle, more if you enjoy the AOO variants.

Regards,

- Erik

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 53

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/19/2008 11:56:35 PM

JMass

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dale H

Erik, great point! To embellish the point you make here's one that would be similar:

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/theGamers/prodocscb.php

Notice the price tag.

Case Blue has a lot of scenarios, campaigns, maps and counters:

Case Blue is a game that covers both the Axis advance (1941 and 1942) as well as the Soviet counterattacks (Nov 42 to Jan 43) and the German counteroffensive at Kharkov (Feb-March 1943) that ended the series of campaigns in the south. The game covers in great detail all the operations from October 1941 until May 1943 on a large play area extending from Voronezh almost to the Turkish border.

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RE: Only one scenario? - 7/20/2008 12:05:43 AM

jjax

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dale H

I find it very interesting that this worn out thread keeps getting the grease while Mario's Beautiful Game!!! thread gets no acknowledgement.

I'm sure Mario would welcome your contribution to his thread. If you have some positive things to say about the game, feel free to add them. I'm always looking for good points.

< Message edited by jjax -- 7/20/2008 12:12:08 AM >

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Post #: 55

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/20/2008 12:15:41 AM

Erik Rutins

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Guys, I was not trying to slam board wargames. I'm a board wargamer and own many single-scenario board wargames as well as multi-scenarios ones like ASL.

My point is simply that you will still get excellent value for your money and a solid amount of entertainment from a game like this. If you enjoyed The Ardennes Offensive, Battles in Normandy or Korsun Pocket, there's at least as much gameplay in here if not more.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Only one scenario? - 7/20/2008 12:34:22 AM

Duck Doc

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Ok, not a good choice but this one should work:

http://www.justplain.com/IT/IT.html

Check out the price.

This one is restricted to the Bulge. I don't know if it has scenarios but it really doesn't matter. I think Erik made a good point.

I can find more more. I am just getting warmed up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JMass

Case Blue has a lot of scenarios, campaigns, maps and counters:

Case Blue is a game that covers both the Axis advance (1941 and 1942) as well as the Soviet counterattacks (Nov 42 to Jan 43) and the German counteroffensive at Kharkov (Feb-March 1943) that ended the series of campaigns in the south. The game covers in great detail all the operations from October 1941 until May 1943 on a large play area extending from Voronezh almost to the Turkish border.

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Post #: 57

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/20/2008 12:44:49 AM

Duck Doc

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No, I think someone with a stake in the game should acknowledge him. I was just making a point.

I have noticed the negative threads tend to get greased & the ones that are positive are mostly ignored. I am aware the fan-boys don't really deserve any credulity but an occasional fish thrown to the fin-slapping seals might be indicated & even beneficial. You know, we are the ones that tend to buy the games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax
I'm sure Mario would welcome your contribution to his thread. If you have some positive things to say about the game, feel free to add them. I'm always looking for good points.

< Message edited by Dale H -- 7/20/2008 12:50:54 AM >

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Post #: 58

RE: Only one scenario? - 7/20/2008 12:55:10 AM

TheHellPatrol

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RE: Case Blue & Iron Tide...
Both superb games i own along with my prized "The Devil's Cauldron" which is now going for $190

. These monsters can hardly compare to a single map PC game

.

< Message edited by TheHellPatrol -- 7/20/2008 12:57:42 AM >

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RE: Only one scenario? - 7/20/2008 1:10:23 AM

Duck Doc

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Ok, I'll grant you that Case Blue & The Devil's Cauldron, being monster games, may not compare well but the point Erik was making was there are boardgames without all the benefits of a computer game, like an AI to play against & a little gnome that takes care of all the details for you, that cover only one battle at the same scale that cost at least as much.

At the bottom of the Iron Tide page there is this:

"Brigade - Battalion level
700 counters
one 28 x 42 map"

Sounds about the same as Kharkov to me but what do I know? I am just a seal on a rock.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

RE: Case Blue & Iron Tide...
Both superb games i own along with my prized "The Devil's Cauldron" which is now going for $190. These monsters can hardly compare to a single map PC game.

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)

Post #: 60