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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR

 
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RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/6/2008 1:01:49 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		It could be bad though...if the USSR is moving second - the turn could end, the weather could change. The Russians could have WiF super-ART across the way in Estonia ready to double the strength of that division regardless of air combat, or simply surplus air assets to commit. If that happens with the 2-3 Russian INF, the remaining Finns might have only a low-odds counterattack, and some of them might have been disrupted on surprise by Russian bombers.

I've never thought of an exact lower probability limit to give the other player, I play more seat-of-the-pants (hotseat?). I don't think very many Russian players would throw their Engineer division into a 20% attack though; and they could have a 1 point regular Inf div as well, I forgot about breakdown-on-setup, but the Engineer cancels the -1 for city on the 2d10. But maybe 20% would be a good number to pick. It is can be fun to let the the other player take high-risk attacks.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 211
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/6/2008 3:31:42 AM   
npilgaard

 

Posts: 175
Joined: 5/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
For Germany to rail through Sweden to Finland, it must already have a unit in Norway AND Finland,


You are right - had forgotten about that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Therefore,...

For each of the conditions you listed, what adjustments would you make to the Finnish setup?


That is a task

Haven't done all the combinations, but at least here is a start (It became somewhat complex to keep track of all the different variables, so there probably are some 'errors'):


First, a few 'definitons' regarding the general level of invasion risk:

"RoPI": Risk of Primary Invasion/paradrop in case of:

  • - ATR and PARA corps within range of Helsinki
    OR
  • If NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules:

    • if TRS w corps in Baltic 3(if fine weather) or 4 box, or in Leningrad

  • If OptRule.AmphibiousRules:

    • - if AMPH w corps in Baltic (3) or 4 box, or in Leningrad
      OR
    • - if TRS w MAR corps in Baltic (3) or 4 box, or in Leningrad




"RoI": Risk of Invasions in case of:

  • IF OptRule.Divisions:

    • - if TRS and/or SCS(s) w DIV(s) in Baltic (3) or 4 box or in Leningrad

    OR
  • - RoPI



Also, regarding expected German support:

"GSI": German Support Immidiately - 1-2 corps will arrive by TRS/AMPH next impulse



Additional optional rules:
"no-ZoC": no ZoC on surprise



Proposals for 1939 setup (the least complex one) - partly done:


1) RoI:
as proposed

2) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and GSI and lake not frozen and no fast USSR units north of lake:
as proposed except:
1 INF (6-3) wp, forest hex east of Viipuri
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

3) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and GSI and not winter and fast USSR units north of lake:
as proposed except:
1 INF (6-3) wp, Viipuri
1 HQI,(35,50) Swamp hex
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

4) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and GSI and winter:
as 3) except:
1 INF (5-4), Viipuri

5) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and no GSI:
as proposed except:
1 INF (5-4), clear hex west of Viipuri
1 HQI Helsinki

6) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and GSI and lake not frozen and no fast USSR units north of lake:
as 2) except:
1 DIV (2-4), forest hex east of Viipuri
1 INF (6-3) wp, forest hex north east of Viipuri

7) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and GSI and fast USSR units north of lake and not winter:
as proposed except:
1 DIV (2-4), Viipuri
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

8) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and GSI and winter:
as proposed except:
1 DIV (2-4), Viipuri
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

9) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and no GSI:
as 5) and:
1 DIV (2-4), clear hex west of Viipuri



_____________________________

Regards
Nikolaj

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 212
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/6/2008 3:40:30 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: npilgaard


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
For Germany to rail through Sweden to Finland, it must already have a unit in Norway AND Finland,


You are right - had forgotten about that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Therefore,...

For each of the conditions you listed, what adjustments would you make to the Finnish setup?


That is a task

Haven't done all the combinations, but at least here is a start (It became somewhat complex to keep track of all the different variables, so there probably are some 'errors'):


First, a few 'definitons' regarding the general level of invasion risk:

"RoPI": Risk of Primary Invasion/paradrop in case of:

  • - ATR and PARA corps within range of Helsinki
    OR
  • If NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules:

    • if TRS w corps in Baltic 3(if fine weather) or 4 box, or in Leningrad

  • If OptRule.AmphibiousRules:

    • - if AMPH w corps in Baltic (3) or 4 box, or in Leningrad
      OR
    • - if TRS w MAR corps in Baltic (3) or 4 box, or in Leningrad




"RoI": Risk of Invasions in case of:

  • IF OptRule.Divisions:

    • - if TRS and/or SCS(s) w DIV(s) in Baltic (3) or 4 box or in Leningrad

    OR
  • - RoPI



Also, regarding expected German support:

"GSI": German Support Immidiately - 1-2 corps will arrive by TRS/AMPH next impulse



Additional optional rules:
"no-ZoC": no ZoC on surprise



Proposals for 1939 setup (the least complex one) - partly done:


1) RoI:
as proposed

2) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and GSI and lake not frozen and no fast USSR units north of lake:
as proposed except:
1 INF (6-3) wp, forest hex east of Viipuri
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

3) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and GSI and not winter and fast USSR units north of lake:
as proposed except:
1 INF (6-3) wp, Viipuri
1 HQI,(35,50) Swamp hex
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

4) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and GSI and winter:
as 3) except:
1 INF (5-4), Viipuri

5) RoPI and no-ZoC and NOT OptRule.Divisions and no GSI:
as proposed except:
1 INF (5-4), clear hex west of Viipuri
1 HQI Helsinki

6) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and GSI and lake not frozen and no fast USSR units north of lake:
as 2) except:
1 DIV (2-4), forest hex east of Viipuri
1 INF (6-3) wp, forest hex north east of Viipuri

7) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and GSI and fast USSR units north of lake and not winter:
as proposed except:
1 DIV (2-4), Viipuri
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

8) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and GSI and winter:
as proposed except:
1 DIV (2-4), Viipuri
1 INF (5-4), Helsinki

9) RoPI and no-ZoC and OptRule.Divisions and no GSI:
as 5) and:
1 DIV (2-4), clear hex west of Viipuri



Oooo, I love it!

Here is something to make life easier - the AIO will not play use the optional rule No-ZOC. So you can eliminate all those conditionals. ZOC will always be in place. Want to revise your pseudo code trimming out those conditionals?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to npilgaard)
Post #: 213
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/6/2008 7:06:13 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		[ you could trim out the 'box' references for the most part...the TRS could only be in the three box I would think; just check if it is in the 3 box or face-up in port ]

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 214
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/8/2008 1:32:08 PM   
npilgaard

 

Posts: 175
Joined: 5/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Oooo, I love it!


Thanks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Here is something to make life easier - the AIO will not play use the optional rule No-ZOC. So you can eliminate all those conditionals. ZOC will always be in place. Want to revise your pseudo code trimming out those conditionals?


Lol - since that was the single most important rule regarding the finnish setup pretty much all of the above was under assumption of that rule
A wise choice to exclude it from the AIO-code though - it will lead to to much extra work for only a very small benefit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
you could trim out the 'box' references for the most part...the TRS could only be in the three box I would think; just check if it is in the 3 box or face-up in port

You are right - just checked and the USSR doesn't get a TRS or AMPH with 5 move until '42 or so - and I have yet to see USSR build AMPH

_____________________________

Regards
Nikolaj

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 215
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/8/2008 4:32:40 PM   
npilgaard

 

Posts: 175
Joined: 5/3/2006
Status: offline 		Take two of Finnish setup under various conditions:

If nothing else noted, all unit requirements must be face up units.
Also, all Finnish units must be placed in supply (except maybe Vaasa)

On second thought I have kept the check for TRS/AMPH in 4-box to allow the 'code' to handle all cases (incl. new units in future expansions, late war units, etc. - it will probably be easy to code when checking for the 3-box anyway)


"RoPI": Risk of Primary Invasion/paradrop in case of:

  • if weather permits air missions (i.e. not storm)

    • - ATR within range of Helsinki and PARA corps within movement range of ATR

    OR

  • if weather permits invasions (i.e. not winter, storm, blizzard iirc):

    • If NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules:

      • if TRS or AMPH w corps in Baltic 3 (in fine weather) or 4-box, or capable of reaching such box in one move (i.e. in non-iced Baltic Port) with INF class corps positioned so it can embark

    • If OptRule.AmphibiousRules:

      • - if AMPH w corps in Baltic 3 (in fine weather) or 4-box, or capable of reaching such box in one move with INF class corps positioned so it can embark
        OR

      • - if TRS w MAR corps in in Baltic 3 (in fine weather) or 4-box, or capable of reaching such box in one move with MAR corps positioned so it can embark





"RoI": Risk of Invasion/paradrop in case of:

  • if weather permits air missions (i.e. not storm)

    • - ATR within range of Helsinki and PARA DIV within movement range of ATR

    OR

  • if weather permits invasions (i.e. not winter, storm, blizzard iirc):

    • IF OptRule.Divisions:

      • - if TRS, AMPH and/or SCS(s) w non-motorised INF class DIV(s) in Baltic 3 (in fine weather) or 4-box, OR capable of reaching such box in one move with DIV(s) positioned so it can embark

      OR

    • - RoPI



Regarding USSR attack strength:

"PA" : Poor attack odds (specific values yet to be decided) - calculated by AIO: potential chance of taking hex, including ground strike capability, terrain, weather, potential attacking factors, blit capabilities etc.


Also, regarding expected German support:

"GSI": German Support Immidiately - 1-2 corps will arrive by TRS/AMPH next impulse
"GS": German Support Likely - 1-2 corps will arrive by TRS/AMPH during this turn (GS includes GSI)


Proposals for 1939 setup:



  • IF RoI (and thus OptRule.Divisions)

    • IF only 1 DIV able to do potential invasion/paradrop on Helsinki

      • As proposed, with 1 INF DIV in Helsinki
        OR
      • As proposed

    • IF 2+ DIVs able to do potential invasion/paradrop on Helsinki

      • As proposed, except:
        1 INF (5-4),Helsinki
        1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Turku
        OR (a bit more risky):
      • As proposed, with 1 INF DIV in Helsinki



  • IF RoMI

    • As proposed, except:
      1 INF (5-4),Helsinki
      IF OptRule.Divisions: 1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Turku
      OR (somewhat more risky):
    • As proposed, with 1 INF DIV in Helsinki


  • IF NOT RoI AND NOT RoMI

    • As proposed, except:
      1 INF (5-4),Helsinki
      IF OptRule.Divisions: 1 INF DIV: placed within movement range of the hexes W and NW of Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo

      OR

    • IF [ lake not frozen (and no significant risk of it being frozen in the following impulses) ] AND [(PA on hex E of Viipuri (especially if risk of being flipped by ground strike is low) ) AND no USSR unit within movement range of the hex NE of Viipurti) OR GSI ]

      • As proposed, except:
        1 INF (5-4), forest hex E of Viipuri
        1 INF (6-3) wp, forest hex E of Viipuri
        1 HQI, (36,49) Viipuri
        1 TAC, (36,48) Forest hex NE of Helsinki (or other hexe within range of the Finnish units and Leningrad)
        IF OptRule.Divisions 1 INF DIV, forest hex E of Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo
        OR (maybe with somewhat lower probability):
      • As proposed, except
        1 INF (5-4), Helsinki






Proposals for 1940 setup:


  • IF lake not frozen (and no significant risk of it being frozen in the following impulses)) AND NOT 2+ (or 1+ if less risk) USSR units within movement range of the hex NE of Viipurti:

    • IF RoI (and thus OptRule.Divisions)

      • IF only 1 DIV able to do potential invasion/paradrop on Helsinki

        • As proposed, with 1 INF DIV in Helsinki
          OR
        • As proposed

      • IF 2+ DIVs able to do potential invasion/paradrop on Helsinki

        • As proposed, except:
          1 INF (5-4),Helsinki
          1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Turku
          OR (a bit more risky):
        • As proposed, with 1 INF DIV in Helsinki
          OR (a bit more risky):
        • 1939 setup as proposed, except:
          (1 INF (5-4),Helsinki; 1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Turku) OR (1 INF (5-4),as proposed; 1 INF DIV, Helsinki)
          1 MOT, Forest hex within movement range of clear hex W of Viipuri
          1 FTR, Forest hex W of swamp NW of Viipuri


    • IF RoMI

      Similar to "IF 2+ DIVs able to do potential invasion/paradrop on Helsinki" above, except higher probability for chosing the modified 1939-aetup

    • IF NOT RoI AND NOT RoMI

      • As proposed, except:
        1 INF (5-4), forest hex NE of Viipuri
        1 TAC, Forest hex within range of Viipuri and Leningrad
        IF OptRule.Divisions: 1 INF DIV: Forest hex E of Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo



  • IF lake frozen (or significant risk of it being frozen in the following impulses))

    Similar to 1939 setup incl. all conditionals above (i.e. setup dependent on RoI etc.), except:
    1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
    1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki


  • IF 2+ (or 1+ if less risk (*) ) USSR units within movement range of the hex NE of Viipurti AND lake not frozen:


    • IF RoI OR RoMI:
      Similar to 1939 setup incl. all conditionals above (i.e. setup dependent on RoI etc.), except:
      1 MOT, within movement range of clear hex W of Viipuri (place so adding ZoC to unprotected coastal hexes if possible)
      1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki

    • IF NOT RiI AND NOT RoMI:

      • IF GS:
        As proposed OR as if no GS (but less probability for chosing that setup)

      • IF NO GS:
        Similar to 1939 setup as proposed, except:
        1 INF (5-4),Helsinki
        1 MOT, Empty hex (Forest if possible) within movement range of clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki
        IF OptRule.Divisions: 1 INF DIV: Empty hex (Forest if possible) within movement range of clear hex W of Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo



(*) especially if the unit is a corps and USSR can blitz attack the hex NW of Leningrad - then the ZoC can prevent any retreat


That is all for now - maybe '41 and '42 will be added later

_____________________________

Regards
Nikolaj

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 216
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/8/2008 7:05:16 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Nikolaj,

Much thanks.

Now I'll see how to 'script' that using LAIO (Language for the AI Opponenet) we've created for MWIF.

EDIT: DId you take into consideration that the USSR is likely to have ski units that could ignore ZOCs?

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 6/8/2008 7:06:32 PM >

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to npilgaard)
Post #: 217
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/8/2008 8:03:58 PM   
npilgaard

 

Posts: 175
Joined: 5/3/2006
Status: offline 		Hmm - had forgotten about the ski divs - that will probably require some adjustments of the above.

Is there a thread where the LAIO is described? (perhaps that would allow for a more useful structure)

_____________________________

Regards
Nikolaj

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 218
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/8/2008 10:44:42 PM   
npilgaard

 

Posts: 175
Joined: 5/3/2006
Status: offline 		Adjustments to Finland setup - ski divs:

One extra conditional (is that the right word?) added: ski divs during winter (and thus OptRule.Divisions)


1939:


  • IF (snow OR blizzard) AND (USSR SKI DIV near Finnish Borderlands):

    • IF potential para drop by corps on Helsinki (i.e. ATR+PARA in range, not blizzard etc):

      • As proposed, except:
        1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 INF DIV, Helsinki

    • IF no risk of para on Helsinki:

      • As proposed, except:
        1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 INF DIV, swamp hex NW of Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo





1940:


  • IF (snow OR blizzard) AND (USSR SKI DIV near Finnish Borderlands):

    • IF potential para drop by corps on Helsinki (i.e. ATR+PARA in range, not blizzard etc):

      • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
        1 HQ-INF, Helsinki
        1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
        1 INF DIV, Petsamo
        1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki

        OR (if 2+ USSR corps near Petsamo and it is important to protect it):

      • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
        1 HQ-INF, Helsinki
        1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
        1 INF DIV, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
        1 INF (6-3) w, Petsamo
        1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki

    • IF no risk of para on Helsinki:

      • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
        1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
        1 INF DIV, Petsamo
        1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki

        OR (if 2+ USSR corps near Petsamo and it is important to protect it):

      • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
        1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
        1 INF DIV, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
        1 INF (6-3) w, Petsamo
        1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki






_____________________________

Regards
Nikolaj

(in reply to npilgaard)
Post #: 219
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/9/2008 1:58:45 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

Adjustments to Finland setup - ski divs:

One extra conditional (is that the right word?) added: ski divs during winter (and thus OptRule.Divisions)


1939:


  • IF (snow OR blizzard) AND (USSR SKI DIV near Finnish Borderlands):

    • IF potential para drop by corps on Helsinki (i.e. ATR+PARA in range, not blizzard etc):

      • As proposed, except:
        1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 INF DIV, Helsinki

    • IF no risk of para on Helsinki:

      • As proposed, except:
        1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 INF DIV, swamp hex NW of Viipuri OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo





1940:


  • IF (snow OR blizzard) AND (USSR SKI DIV near Finnish Borderlands):

    • IF potential para drop by corps on Helsinki (i.e. ATR+PARA in range, not blizzard etc):

      • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
        1 HQ-INF, Helsinki
        1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
        1 INF DIV, Petsamo
        1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki

        OR (if 2+ USSR corps near Petsamo and it is important to protect it):

      • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
        1 HQ-INF, Helsinki
        1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
        1 INF DIV, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
        1 INF (6-3) w, Petsamo
        1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki

    • IF no risk of para on Helsinki:

      • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
        1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
        1 INF DIV, Petsamo
        1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki

        OR (if 2+ USSR corps near Petsamo and it is important to protect it):

      • As proposed 1939 setup, except:
        1 INF (5-4), clear hex W of Viipuri
        1 MOT, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
        1 INF DIV, swamp hex NW of Viipuri
        1 INF (6-3) w, Petsamo
        1 FTR, Forest hex NW+NE of Helsinki






Peter and I are hammering out the details of the language (LAIO). One of the reasons for discussing this topic here is to see what language constructs we need that we haven't defined yet.

Your presentation of the logic is elegant - I hope LAIO is as easy to read.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to npilgaard)
Post #: 220
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/9/2008 2:28:18 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		it is worth doing the late-war set-ups too. If the USSR had to DoW Germany (a German sitzkrieg, a Germany bogged-down in the Med, a German just generally really screwed-up in the West, a German who crossed a border too far and accidentally let their eastern garrison slip), Finland can be neutral in the middle of the game and the USSR can start to covet their objective hex.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 221
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/9/2008 4:03:42 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		As far as AMPH/TRS goes, the USSR doesn't have to have a transport that can make it to the 4-box to invade. In fine weather the 3 box is just as good.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 222
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/9/2008 10:04:15 PM   
loricas

 

Posts: 217
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Scandiano(RE), Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

it is worth doing the late-war set-ups too. If the USSR had to DoW Germany (a German sitzkrieg, a Germany bogged-down in the Med, a German just generally really screwed-up in the West, a German who crossed a border too far and accidentally let their eastern garrison slip), Finland can be neutral in the middle of the game and the USSR can start to covet their objective hex.

I don't have the european map available to count the hex, but if i remember Helsinki is more closed to Moscow than Berlin: so even if germany is unconquered the URSS have no reason to made that attack: the neutral obiective hex are added to that of MP that have the capital at minor distance at the game end. so URSS only risk to loss that victory point: count the hex from berlin-helsinki-moskow if i'm not in error this can spare the work

_____________________________

Se la germania perde siamo perdenti. Se la germania vince siamo perduti.
If germany lose we are loser. if germany won we are lost.
G.Ciano Mussolini's foreign minister
Ciao Paolo

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 223
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/9/2008 10:12:20 PM   
loricas

 

Posts: 217
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Scandiano(RE), Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ATR within range of Helsinki and PARA DIV within movement range of ATR:


i think it is a wrong line: PARA div or CORP must stacked with the ATR to make paradrop.

in the sequence of play Paradrop is before land move(if not changed in the 2008 annual that i don't have)

so the correct sentences is: ATR within range of Helsinki and PARA DIV/CORP stacked with it

_____________________________

Se la germania perde siamo perdenti. Se la germania vince siamo perduti.
If germany lose we are loser. if germany won we are lost.
G.Ciano Mussolini's foreign minister
Ciao Paolo

(in reply to npilgaard)
Post #: 224
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/9/2008 10:39:16 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		I think they can.

D2.3 Perform actions

The major powers that didn't pass perform these steps in this order (their action choice will limit what they can do ~ see action limits table):

(a) Port attacks
(b) Naval air missions
(c) Naval movement
(d) Your naval combat
(e) Opponent's naval combat
(f) Strategic bombardment
(g) Carpet bombing (option 32)
(h) Ground strike missions
(i) Rail movement
(j) Land movement
(k) Air transport
(l) Debark land units at sea
(m) Invasions
(n) Paradrops
(o) Land combat
(p) Air rebases
(q) Reorganisation


11.15 Paradrops
PARAs are land units but have the additional ability of flying into an enemy hex without having to move by land through the intervening hexes. PARAs can only fly a paradrop mission if they start the mission in supply and stacked with an ATR



< Message edited by peskpesk -- 6/9/2008 10:41:10 PM >

(in reply to loricas)
Post #: 225
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/9/2008 11:00:09 PM   
loricas

 

Posts: 217
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Scandiano(RE), Italy
Status: offline 		I checked raw: I'm apolgize i'm in error the sentence is correct. para can move before paradrop

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If germany lose we are loser. if germany won we are lost.
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Ciao Paolo

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 226
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/10/2008 12:00:40 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		thanks loricas, that does sound more accurate to me. the past always comes back for you in this game. I think I have been a Russian player that forgot that and went after Finland anyway. ooops.

(in reply to loricas)
Post #: 227
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/10/2008 12:54:07 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		peskpesk, maybe you want to use the counter from MWiF ?




Attachment (1)

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 228
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/10/2008 12:58:01 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Ahh, thx! (I was never a photoshop master anyway)

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 229
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/10/2008 1:03:43 AM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		I quite recently checked the distance of Helsinki, and it was the same distance from Moscow & Berlin, so Germany & USSR split the objective.

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(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 230
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/10/2008 1:15:03 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I quite recently checked the distance of Helsinki, and it was the same distance from Moscow & Berlin, so Germany & USSR split the objective.

True :

Berlin - Helsinki = 16 hexes.
Moscow - Helsinki = 16 hexes.

If Finland is neutral, this makes for 1/2 objective for each of Germany & Russia.
Stockholm (if Sweden is neutral) counts for Germany as it is the nearest. this makes for an easy objective (out of the 10 needed) for Germany at game's end.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 231
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/12/2008 7:47:37 AM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline 		I would like to know if there is a chance that the Axis AI, will just allow the claim of the finnish border lands. (Allowing the claim immediately reduces the resources the USSR supplies to Germany by 1 )

A reason for doing this as the axis, is to limit the USSR, to combined or pass impluses. (9.1 Neutral major powers must always pick either a pass or a combined action )

Which can make a difference in activity limits of Communist Chinese units. (20. The Soviet player always controls the Chinese communist units and their activities count against Soviet activity limits. Partisans in China are always Chinese communist units.)

I know from experience you can trust a human to do most anything.


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“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
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(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 232
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/12/2008 8:19:17 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		Even if the USSR is at war with Finland, it can still be a Neutral Major Power. It has to be at war with another Major Power to become Active.

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 233
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/12/2008 8:51:09 AM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks Brian Brian,
Found the exact quote in the index, (Neutral major power [a major power not at war with any major power]).






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“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 234
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/12/2008 10:15:20 AM   
oscar72se

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Gothenburg Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I quite recently checked the distance of Helsinki, and it was the same distance from Moscow & Berlin, so Germany & USSR split the objective.

True :

Berlin - Helsinki = 16 hexes.
Moscow - Helsinki = 16 hexes.

If Finland is neutral, this makes for 1/2 objective for each of Germany & Russia.
Stockholm (if Sweden is neutral) counts for Germany as it is the nearest. this makes for an easy objective (out of the 10 needed) for Germany at game's end.


You only get victory points if your home country capital is closest to the objective. So in this case both sides get zero victory points for Helsinki (since no side "is the closest").

EDIT:
This really is of importance if the game is close and other sides are competing for the total victory.

< Message edited by oscar72se -- 6/12/2008 10:18:36 AM >

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 235
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/12/2008 11:59:30 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se
You only get victory points if your home country capital is closest to the objective. So in this case both sides get zero victory points for Helsinki (since no side "is the closest").

I'm sorry but for me, when 2 are the closest, each of them is closest. So I'd rather say that each get 1 VP, but I'd prefer to let it to logicaly get 1/2 VP.

(in reply to oscar72se)
Post #: 236
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/12/2008 1:02:10 PM   
oscar72se

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 8/28/2006
From: Gothenburg Sweden
Status: offline 		Found myself reading RaW again, and again I am at fault:
13.8
...If an objective is equidistant from 2 capital cities, count it as half an objective for each of them. If an objective is equidistant from 2 capital cities, count it as half an objective for each of them...
Sorry...

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 237
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/12/2008 1:15:30 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

Found myself reading RaW again, and again I am at fault:
13.8
...If an objective is equidistant from 2 capital cities, count it as half an objective for each of them. If an objective is equidistant from 2 capital cities, count it as half an objective for each of them...
Sorry...

Ah, well, I did not remember either that it was in RAW. Good catch, this settle the issue.

(in reply to oscar72se)
Post #: 238
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/12/2008 6:25:21 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		I believe the victory point split occurs in only two places: Helsinki (split between USSR & Germany while Finland is neutral) and Antwerp (split between CW and France while Belgium is neutral). So it's not much of a big issue, although the half objective difference between USSR & Germany could be crucial in close games.

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~ Composer99

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 239
RE: AI for MWiF - USSR - 6/12/2008 7:45:06 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I think it is very rare for Finland to stay neutral during the whole game so splitting the Helsinki WP must be a rare thing. It has NEVER happened in one of our games.

Anyone here played a game where Finland was neutral at the end of the game?

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 240
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