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RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 12:23:38 AM   
undercovergeek

 

Posts: 1526
Joined: 11/21/2006
From: UK
Status: offline


we dont need no stinkin AI either!!! PBEM all the way


< Message edited by undercovergeek -- 6/22/2008 12:24:08 AM >

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 91
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 12:25:16 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Well, that's not what the poll said way back when...

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Post #: 92
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 12:32:28 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek




we dont need no stinkin AI either!!! PBEM all the way


Grow up.

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It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


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(in reply to undercovergeek)
Post #: 93
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 12:33:42 AM   
undercovergeek

 

Posts: 1526
Joined: 11/21/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		your problem is?

(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 94
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 12:36:23 AM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		OKOKOK stop right there the AI may be what I and some others are personally working on (which is why its what I bitch about) but there is more than enough that the other teams are still on and debugging that no one thing is responsible for it not being out there yet - we all have a lot to do it will be ready when its ready

If I gave any other impression then it was unintentional


(in reply to undercovergeek)
Post #: 95
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 12:41:23 AM   
undercovergeek

 

Posts: 1526
Joined: 11/21/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		never thought anything else - it was a casual aside that at least I and one other person on here (my PBEM opponent) wont need an AI, i shouldnt have poked such a wasps nest apologies - still not sure what upset GEm so much

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 96
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 3:14:16 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		Sorry undercovergeek, I am just crabby today... been "one of those days" no offense, Sir.
I am an AI fan of the game and I understand you enjoy PBEM's, appologies for being "obtuse" earlier.

_____________________________

It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


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Post #: 97
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 3:25:46 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		I enjoy playing the AI too, so I was glad to see Andy's post indicating that the team is working hard on it. 30 hours of input! Ugh.

(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 98
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 4:23:42 AM   
Hornblower


Posts: 1361
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: New York'er relocated to Chicago
Status: offline 		Due to my off work hours, and other obligations, AI is my only option.  I appreciate the work put into it.  ahhhhhhh  if it was only here......

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 99
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 5:30:53 AM   
romanovich

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 12/8/2004
From: SoCal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: romanovich

Maybe Matrix could pre-release the manual? That way, we would have sufficient time to work through the 1,600 pages of small-printed explanations of the games's revised algorithms. That way we'd be ready for the Nov. 1, '09 release date. 


This sounds intriguing. But the one thing I've never figured out (after 20+ years of project experience) is how to write an accurate 1,600 page manual, 18 months prior to releasing the system!!



So, now I can't help myself and have to probe a bit further. I think I read in earlier exchanges that there will be a date, let's call it M, when you guys hand off to Matrix. With the AI being the stubborn beast it is, M might be August for all I can guess. But what happens then? Did you mean to say no manual has been written yet? So Matrix needs to do that after M? Design cover art and fancy intro graphics? Go on a corporate spa and whitewater rafting retreat to debate pricing on this thing? So release is going to be what: M+60? M+90? How long will it take to do the manual and the spa treatment?

Trying to figure out if I should curtail my habit of checking every other day for progress reports, or rather check back in October to see where it's at...

Any hints you're willing to drop?

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 100
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 5:31:49 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Terminus is right, most of us play the AI, even when engaged in seperate PBEM games.
IMHO an ideal AI would
1.Have initial objectives pre-programmed,
2.Have secondary programmed objectives based on "phases" or game months,
3.Be responsive to enemy movement, and
4.Be cognizant of enemy aircraft zones, sub lairs, etc.

That said, it would be impossible to expect anything like this in a literal sense, especially when confined to an existing skeleton of programming.

I try to bring levity to the forum but am as eager as the next guy to see the AE package delivered to we gamers as good as is possible.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 101
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 5:37:09 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		I am sticking by my "release by Christmas 08" and I am happy.
WitP isn't going anywhere and remains a great game by itself, take your time boys and get it right.
Thank you.

_____________________________

It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


Banner By Feurer Krieg

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 102
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 6:02:10 AM   
Hornblower


Posts: 1361
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: New York'er relocated to Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Terminus is right, most of us play the AI, even when engaged in seperate PBEM games.
IMHO an ideal AI would
1.Have initial objectives pre-programmed,
2.Have secondary programmed objectives based on "phases" or game months,
3.Be responsive to enemy movement, and
4.Be cognizant of enemy aircraft zones, sub lairs, etc.

That said, it would be impossible to expect anything like this in a literal sense, especially when confined to an existing skeleton of programming.

I try to bring levity to the forum but am as eager as the next guy to see the AE package delivered to we gamers as good as is possible.





Right, Better to get to be later and get it correct, then sooner and require patches … pic= We Were Expendable.. J. Ford ... good flick.. Sometimes the oldest are the best..

< Message edited by Hornblower -- 6/22/2008 6:03:07 AM >

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 103
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 10:53:12 AM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

Your data may apply in Academia.
Discuss your estimates with professional technical writers or editors.
You will be suprised.




Are you claiming my estimate is high or low?

I used to do cost and workload analysis in industry. We usually estimated 8 man-hours per final finished page of documentation. There were vendors who lowballed at 6 hours per page.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Rainer)
Post #: 104
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 12:50:56 PM   
langley


Posts: 183
Joined: 2/1/2005
From: Newbury, Berkshire, England.
Status: offline 		I'm with you as far as the release date goes anyway, if i that to put a date on the release it would be December 7th 2008.
But That is only my opinion!!!!

MJT

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gem35

I am sticking by my "release by Christmas 08" and I am happy.
WitP isn't going anywhere and remains a great game by itself, take your time boys and get it right.
Thank you.



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(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 105
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 2:14:11 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		As a volounteer project all I can say is I am putting in AT LEAST as many hours a week on AE as I am on my day job and that level of time cannot continue for ever so believe me we want it out there as much as the rest of you want it but there is no point is giving it to you with an AI that doesnt work, or land movement that goes screwy or new features that dont work.

We are going as fast as we can and it will be ready when its ready - no promises

(in reply to langley)
Post #: 106
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 4:48:25 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

an ideal AI would
1.Have initial objectives pre-programmed,
2.Have secondary programmed objectives based on "phases" or game months,



Going in to this project, our intention was not to "change" the AI, but just to "morph" the existing AI system into the AE world. We planned on keeping the existing "AI Processor" in tact.

In the event, for various reasons we have decided this is not sufficient. While many aspects of the AI will remain unchanged, we are changing the land/Air processing more substantially than we originally intended (and this is the primary reason the game is delayed beyond our original expectations).

And for better or worse, we are exposing all of this "data" in the editor in the form of "scripts" (our slang term for them) or "Modules" (perhaps a more accurate term).

For instance Scripts, can be activated by date or be triggered by completion of a predecessor script. Scripts include sequenced objective lists, attacking units, defending units and other attributes.

There are many other details that we can talk about, but we would rather focus on getting it working first and talking later, but at least we can say that scenario desigers (a.k.a. MODDERS) can expect far more control over setting up their AI Scripts than they have now.



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New Game Project Lead

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 107
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 7:13:42 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		Too high.
I don't question your experience, how can I.
But the average SW gaming company cannot afford those efforts.
Most SW companies publishing non-gaming SW can't afford it either (or better: are unwilling to).
To put it to rest: it depends on what documentation we are talking about, and what products/market.

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 108
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 8:45:39 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

an ideal AI would
1.Have initial objectives pre-programmed,
2.Have secondary programmed objectives based on "phases" or game months,



Going in to this project, our intention was not to "change" the AI, but just to "morph" the existing AI system into the AE world. We planned on keeping the existing "AI Processor" in tact.

In the event, for various reasons we have decided this is not sufficient. While many aspects of the AI will remain unchanged, we are changing the land/Air processing more substantially than we originally intended (and this is the primary reason the game is delayed beyond our original expectations).

And for better or worse, we are exposing all of this "data" in the editor in the form of "scripts" (our slang term for them) or "Modules" (perhaps a more accurate term).

For instance Scripts, can be activated by date or be triggered by completion of a predecessor script. Scripts include sequenced objective lists, attacking units, defending units and other attributes.

There are many other details that we can talk about, but we would rather focus on getting it working first and talking later, but at least we can say that scenario desigers (a.k.a. MODDERS) can expect far more control over setting up their AI Scripts than they have now.





Good gosh Joe!!. If modders have access to ANY of the AI's "phases" or tactical modules*, this in itself would be a major development, since nobody has memory sufficient to memorize every game (mod) which would be possible now!!..

*(Nice terminology?)

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Post #: 109
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/22/2008 11:46:19 PM   
undercovergeek

 

Posts: 1526
Joined: 11/21/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gem35

Sorry undercovergeek, I am just crabby today... been "one of those days" no offense, Sir.
I am an AI fan of the game and I understand you enjoy PBEM's, appologies for being "obtuse" earlier.


its ok, no need to apologise - like i said, i knew it was a nest before i poked it - i know the AIers far out number the PBEMers and i was on to a loser - it was just a light hearted 'just goddam release it'!!!!

(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 110
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/23/2008 3:19:12 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Joe, I applaud your approach to the AI. It's one of the things about AE that has me most intrigued. It's great that you've exposed it to the editor. Even I might try writing an AI mod.

And yeah, take your time to get it right. Although I can't think of a better way to honor the anniversary of Pearl Harbor than by firing up AE. I'm just rooting for the 67th anniversary rather than the 70th. :)

(in reply to undercovergeek)
Post #: 111
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/23/2008 3:25:25 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gem35

Sorry undercovergeek, I am just crabby today... been "one of those days" no offense, Sir.
I am an AI fan of the game and I understand you enjoy PBEM's, appologies for being "obtuse" earlier.


its ok, no need to apologise - like i said, i knew it was a nest before i poked it - i know the AIers far out number the PBEMers and i was on to a loser - it was just a light hearted 'just goddam release it'!!!!

I'm with you friend, I'd love to have the honor of playing the new expansion but let's give the folks a chance to polish it.
I'd love to challenge you to a pbem when it is finished, along with plenty of other potential opponents.
This is going to be ALOT of fun.

_____________________________

It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


Banner By Feurer Krieg

(in reply to undercovergeek)
Post #: 112
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/23/2008 4:04:11 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		AI i am not trying to open a can of worms ,but he says , to me the AI is for L plate drivers or people who dont have the time to play pbem games,myself i dont need it but will use it when AE comes out in november(my guess)for a few week or 2 to get a grasp of the new stuff.

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Post #: 113
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/23/2008 7:17:30 AM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

Your data may apply in Academia.
Discuss your estimates with professional technical writers or editors.
You will be suprised.




Are you claiming my estimate is high or low?

I used to do cost and workload analysis in industry. We usually estimated 8 man-hours per final finished page of documentation. There were vendors who lowballed at 6 hours per page.



Well, my experience is about five years out of date, but I agree with your man-hour estimates. I experienced higher overheads so I would multiple by 2.3 instead of 2.0 to convert direct cost to total cost.

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 114
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/23/2008 12:00:32 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gem35

I am sticking by my "release by Christmas 08" and I am happy.
WitP isn't going anywhere and remains a great game by itself, take your time boys and get it right.
Thank you.


You might be, I might be, all who play might be, Families Agh!

(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 115
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/24/2008 6:12:29 AM   
Tophat1815

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		I was waiting hoping that we'd have an Origins surprise,but alas I have now come to the conclusion I'm wasting my time. Time to get my pbem opponent a turn! AE can come when it comes and I'll buy it but I'm not gonna hold my breath over it. I don't doubt the AE teams intentions but putting a fix on WiTp's AI doesn't strike me as a easy,simple or quick undertaking. If its September, I'll be surprised.By Christmas I'll be pleased. If its 1st or 2nd quarter 09' then I'm sure I'll be bitching with everyone else.

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 116
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/24/2008 5:55:50 PM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

AI i am not trying to open a can of worms ,but he says , to me the AI is for L plate drivers or people who dont have the time to play pbem games,myself i dont need it but will use it when AE comes out in november(my guess)for a few week or 2 to get a grasp of the new stuff.


What's an "L plate driver"?

(in reply to tigercub)
Post #: 117
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/25/2008 12:30:25 AM   
Crimguy


Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline 		Student driver moniker in England and I'm sure elsewhere. It's on the license plate IIRC.

(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 118
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/25/2008 1:11:36 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

Student driver moniker in England and I'm sure elsewhere. It's on the license plate IIRC.



OH!..Like "L", for "learner"....


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Post #: 119
RE: AE Released at what date? - 6/27/2008 5:11:10 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		Hello Forum.  My name is Steve and I play against the AI.  I started playing the AI when I first got the game.  I played the AI in most of my games before WITP.  And I will likely against the AI if there is an "after AE" game.  Yes I have to admit to a little fear of getting my ass handed to me by taking up a PBEM game. 

But I am also not in the condition to PBEM.  Work schedule was problematic but I am not working right now.  Now, it is my health that makes me hesitant to get involved in any real long term planning.  I have spent 5 weeks in Chemo and Radiation.  About 12 hours ago, I returned home from a 23 day hospital stay with two abdominal surgeries and find myself without the strength or pain resistance to remain awake for more than a few hours at a time.  In a month or two, I will be starting a six month chemo regimen that I am being led to believe will be far worse than the first chemo/radiation treatments {which were not bad at all}.  Not exactly good PBEM material.

So, please keep plugging away at the AI, like I know you are doing.  With luck, AE will be finished as I get strong enough to truly enjoy this monster.  I have not looked to the futuure for a game so much since Red Baron 2 or the original WITP.

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 120
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