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RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 4:24:33 AM

Joe D.

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I could be wrong, but read that Hess was first in the artillery, and then later transfered to aviation in WW I; he was an airline pilot between the wars, but I wasn't able to confirm any of this.

Most of the info on Hess consisted of conspiracey theories re his flight, which was impressive considering that, for obvious reasons, he never filed a flight plan from Hanover to Scotland.

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Post #: 211

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 4:33:44 AM

barkhorn45

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Here's what i could find{not being at home} Rudolf Hess was born in 1894 in Alexandria, Egypt, the son of a German merchant. During the First World War he served in the German Army and was seriously injured at Verdun in August 1917. In the same year he got promoted to Lieutenant and voluteered for the flying corps
From autumn 1918 onwards he fought in the fighter squardon 35 at the western front. After the end of the war he became a volunteer in the "Freikorps von Epp", a right wing paramilitary formation during the Weimar Republic. In June 1920 he joined the NSDAP and took part in the unsuccessful coup de etat on 9th November 1923 in Munich, which had the aim to overthrow the Bavarian government. Together with Adolf Hitler he was imprisoned at Landsberg. On his release from prison he became Hitler's private secretary and accompanied him on most of his political travels throughout Germany. When the Nazis came into power, in 1933, he was elevated to the rank of a minister and became a member of Hitler's cabinet and at the same time became Hitler's dedicated deputy

< Message edited by barkhorn45 -- 6/28/2008 4:45:54 AM >

(in reply to Joe D.)

Post #: 212

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 4:49:36 AM

Joe D.

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Doesn't say much re Hess' aviation experience, but between the wars many German aircraft that were classified as civilian later became military models, and Hess' "airline" experience may have been in one of these paramilitary planes.

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"The Angel of Okinawa"

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The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to barkhorn45)

Post #: 213

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 5:18:02 AM

barkhorn45

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it does'nt look like he had much time for flying anyway lets just leave it as a good display of dead reakoning on his part what ever his reasoning considering it was dark and he was flying a day fighter not set up for night flying and as you said he did'nt set up a flight plan.also i believe that willy messersmhmitt was somehow involved it helped lead to his eventual downfall.

(in reply to Joe D.)

Post #: 214

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 7:39:11 AM

Ike99

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quote:

A 10 mile margin of error pretty much proves that a person working by dead reckoning would have a very difficult time hitting something the size of an airfield without radio navigation or lots of visual waypoints.

It is more than evident to everyone here that you are the most ignorant person offering opinions about the feasibility of night bombing in these forums.

Hess flew 900 miles, 4 hours and got within 10 miles of his objective. Now, understand this ...If Hess had been a Japanese navigator leading a flight of bombers to an airfield to bomb, he would not have used dead reakoning to bomb the airfield with.

He would have used dead reakoning to find the airfield. He would find the airfield using dead reackoning, not bomb it with dead reakoning.

The bombing of the airfield itself would be done by visual. Probably aided by ground lights (Search Lights, AA fire) and with the dropping of flares.

Can you understand this? I doubt it.

< Message edited by Ike99 -- 6/28/2008 8:00:24 AM >

(in reply to mdiehl)

Post #: 215

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 1:56:30 PM

Joe D.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barkhorn45

... he was flying a day fighter not set up for night flying and as you said he did'nt set up a flight plan.

The Bf 110 eventually became a very effective night fighter, but I don't know what configuration or variation Hess was flying that fateful night; perhaps a trip to the library is called for.

For the record, I didn't say Hess didn't have a flight plan, but he could never file it; despite his high position in the Nazi party, the tower at Hanover airfield would never have given Hess permission to fly to Scotland!

I wonder what excuse Hess gave to get off the ground that night: "Joy ride for the chief-of-staff" (Commander Eddington, "In Harm's Way)?

_____________________________

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"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to barkhorn45)

Post #: 216

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 2:05:55 PM

Joe D.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... The bombing of the airfield itself would be done by visual. Probably aided by ground lights (Search Lights, AA fire) and with the dropping of flares.

Ike, are you assuming that the airfield would turn on it's lights and fire its AAA before the Japanese planes were overhead, giving them a beacon to their target?

This thread is turning into a debating club and not an intelligent discussion of UV air combat modeling.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Ike99)

Post #: 217

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 2:54:15 PM

SuluSea

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I'm reading "Fleet Admiral, The Story Of William F. Halsey" and on page 50 from the "Fliers from Shangri-La" chapter it got me thinking about this thread. Obviously� noone is going to change their minds, no matter the information�put forth�but in a effort to humor some.

quote:

Night came on. Some of the B-25's found themselves still over the sea-but, their navigators questioned, what sea? Others were over land- but was it japan, Korea, or China? There were no lights, no cities to be seen, no landing fields. Below there was only stormy sea or desolate, craggy mountains. Some crews took a vote: Shall we bail out? Or stay with her till she goes coughing on the last cupful of gas?

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 6/28/2008 2:55:50 PM >

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Post #: 218

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/5/2008 9:37:37 PM

DEB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Deb

I've been upset by stuff and I get over it.� I try and keep things in their proper prospective.

It's perspective. And thats usually me too, but if someone have's a "go" then I'll "return fire". If you think anything that's been said has been over the top then you haven't seen me in full flow!

(in reply to tocaff)

Post #: 219

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/5/2008 9:41:21 PM

DEB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Notice there is nothing said re the effectivesness of night bombing, just that the Japanese had a habit of doing it.

But some people here would have us believe that the Japs could not manage it at all, that's what we disagree with.

(in reply to Joe D.)

Post #: 220

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/5/2008 9:54:44 PM

DEB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

It is more than evident to everyone here that you are the most ignorant person offering opinions about the feasibility of night bombing in these forums.

Don't overstate your case. Not everyone agrees with you re the feasibility of night bombing.
As for Ike99 having the most ignorant views on it, that depends on your point of view re the evidence provided to date.
IF you eventually lose this discussion, will you have the guts to apologise for your insults?

(in reply to mdiehl)

Post #: 221

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/5/2008 10:11:35 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Notice there is nothing said re the effectivesness of night bombing, just that the Japanese had a habit of doing it.

But some people here would have us believe that the Japs could not manage it at all, that's what we disagree with.

I don't think there's a single person here who disputes the actuality of Japanese night bombing in WWII. Of course they did it. How effectively? Not very. Did they conduct these missions in accordance with the specifications and techniques advanced by those defending their efficacy? Who knows?

Look, DEB, it's all well and good to postulate how someone would fly by dead reckoning at night. It's quite something else to offer evidence of what the Japanese actually did in order to arrive over their targets and return home.

I don't want to continue or inflame any arguments. I merely suggest that it would be far more productive to intelligent discussion if someone would offer some documented facts about what the Japanese actually did rather than speculating about what maybe they could have done with techniques that certainly don't square with my understanding of what pilots really do - and I happen to be a pilot.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to DEB)

Post #: 222

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/5/2008 10:12:38 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB

IF you eventually lose this discussion, will you have the guts to apologise for your insults?

Easy, now, let's please just throttle this back a couple of notches from the personal level.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to DEB)

Post #: 223

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/5/2008 10:15:26 PM

DEB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ILCK

..again, can you fly to somewhere near a target and drop bombs. Yes. Can you effectively hit a target....no. That 33% hit rate is laughable.

I think you will find that finding the target ( or not ) was the discussion point recently, more so than the hit rate.
By the way, the hit rate is set by the game and if that causes night raids to be defined as "gamey" in anyone's view, then maybe we should consider questioning more/all of the hit rates etc. in the game.
If we open that can of worms maybe we will find out the game is wholly "laughable" and should just give up playing it at all!

(in reply to ILCK)

Post #: 224

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/5/2008 10:46:21 PM

DEB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

I don't think there's a single person here who disputes the actuality of Japanese night bombing in WWII. Of course they did it. How effectively? Not very. Did they conduct these missions in accordance with the specifications and techniques advanced by those defending their efficacy? Who knows?

Hmmm, I think some people do dispute it, or at least have and have not
retracted that view.

quote:

Look, DEB, it's all well and good to postulate how someone would fly by dead reckoning at night.

Agreed. But I rather think that in 1942/43 the Japs did it in much the same way as the Allies did.

quote:

I don't want to continue or inflame any arguments. I merely suggest that it would be far more productive to intelligent discussion if someone would offer some documented facts about what the Japanese actually did rather than speculating about what maybe they could have done with techniques that certainly don't square with my understanding of what pilots really do - and I happen to be a pilot.

Again, I don't disagree, but why is it that "we" have to prove our point!
The game says it CAN be done, so I feel it's up to any people who disagree to prove that they could not, if that's what they think.
So far we have not had any better evidence than that which has refuted it.

By the way I note only reference to what the Japs could or could not do.
Are you saying that the Allies could do these things ( Night Carrier Ops verses bases and/or night Ops of any kind ) and the Japs can't?

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 225

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/5/2008 10:51:15 PM

DEB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB

IF you eventually lose this discussion, will you have the guts to apologise for your insults?

Easy, now, let's please just throttle this back a couple of notches from the personal level.

Your answer seems aimed at me. It was a response to Mdiel's insult of IKE99. Why not tell him off too? Clear balance in all things.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 226

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/5/2008 11:19:04 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB
Your answer seems aimed at me. It was a response to Mdiel's insult of IKE99. Why not tell him off too? Clear balance in all things.

Fer chrissake, unclench yer butthole, willya? I'm not "telling anybody off, "just asking for a bit of civility here.

The degree to which people are anxious to become belligerent on these forums is enough to inhibit - if not even eliminate - serious commentary and discussion. It's a serious problem that I wish the moderators would address comprehensively by imposing behaviorally-stated standards rather than "c'mon people, smile on your brother, everybody get together, try to love one another right now."

You just can't have any fun around here anymore.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to DEB)

Post #: 227

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/6/2008 5:44:39 AM

Ike99

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quote:

I don't think there's a single person here who disputes the actuality of Japanese night bombing in WWII.

It seems there is paster...how can one perform night bombing if one cannot navigate at night...according to some.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 228

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/6/2008 5:20:05 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

I don't think there's a single person here who disputes the actuality of Japanese night bombing in WWII.

It seems there is paster...how can one perform night bombing if one cannot navigate at night...according to some.

Well, sure they did it, Ike. And I'm thinking they probably did it in a way similar to how you describe (compass, eyeball, map, and a lot of good luck charms)..

Does anyone have a source of information on the subject? That's all I'd like to see. "Hey, Siguru, how'd ya do it, man?"

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Ike99)

Post #: 229

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/7/2008 1:09:45 AM

ILCK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

I don't think there's a single person here who disputes the actuality of Japanese night bombing in WWII.

It seems there is paster...how can one perform night bombing if one cannot navigate at night...according to some.

Can you drop a bomb after dark? Yes

Can you consistently and effectively bomb a target with a large number of planes after dark? No.

For the former there is actual evidence, for the latter there is nill.

(in reply to Ike99)

Post #: 230

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/7/2008 1:44:06 AM

DEB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ILCK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

I don't think there's a single person here who disputes the actuality of Japanese night bombing in WWII.

It seems there is paster...how can one perform night bombing if one cannot navigate at night...according to some.

Can you drop a bomb after dark? Yes

Can you consistently and effectively bomb a target with a large number of planes after dark? No.

For the former there is actual evidence, for the latter there is nill.

So, MAYBE the hit tables are incorrect. If they are, it applies to both sides.
So what's your gripe?

(in reply to ILCK)

Post #: 231

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/7/2008 2:09:30 AM

DEB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Fer chrissake, unclench yer butthole, willya?

That, as you put it, is further uncivilility! Hypocrite.

quote:

I'm not "telling anybody off, "just asking for a bit of civility here.

You did not need to quote me to ask for that, and certainly not me only. Hence my conclusion. It would have been best in the circumstances to quote both of us!

quote:

The degree to which people are anxious to become belligerent on these forums is enough to inhibit - if not even eliminate - serious commentary and discussion. It's a serious problem that I wish the moderators would address comprehensively by imposing behaviorally-stated standards rather than "c'mon people, smile on your brother, everybody get together, try to love one another right now."

I totally agree. Now please put into practise what you preach!
If you don't like my comments then don't respond, then we won't have any misunderstandings will we.

quote:

You just can't have any fun around here anymore.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of humour, and also the first level of insult.
Have fun by all means, if you wish, but expect reprocussions if you overstep the mark. And remember, "the mark" is set by the reader, and NOT by you !!

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 232

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/7/2008 2:11:06 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB
So, MAYBE the hit tables are incorrect. If they are, it applies to both sides.
So what's your gripe?

Have you ever thought about taking a couple of your pills that help you calm down before you post?

Why are the "hit tables" (I have never seen any, so I have no idea to what you are referring) incorrect?

Yes, the Japanese did some night bombing in WWII. So did the Allies. The whole dynamic is WAY beyond my current ability to understand so as even to suggest some modification to how this is all modelled in the game.

How about some argument asserted on the basis of facts?

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to DEB)

Post #: 233

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/7/2008 2:13:16 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB

If you don't like my comments then don't respond, then we won't have any misunderstandings will we.

Okay. I forgot that this was your universe./

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to DEB)

Post #: 234

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/7/2008 2:15:16 AM

DEB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I'm reading "Fleet Admiral, The Story Of William F. Halsey" and on page 50 from the "Fliers from Shangri-La" chapter it got me thinking about this thread. Obviously� noone is going to change their minds, no matter the information�put forth�but in a effort to humor some.

quote:

Night came on. Some of the B-25's found themselves still over the sea-but, their navigators questioned, what sea? Others were over land- but was it japan, Korea, or China? There were no lights, no cities to be seen, no landing fields. Below there was only stormy sea or desolate, craggy mountains. Some crews took a vote: Shall we bail out? Or stay with her till she goes coughing on the last cupful of gas?

This kinda thing went on all the time, and usually when it was the first mission against a target by a particular squadron or group ( whatever ).
As for it maybe being the "norm", I think not.

(in reply to SuluSea)

Post #: 235

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/7/2008 2:24:07 AM

DEB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

It's a serious problem that I wish the moderators would address comprehensively...

It would be nice if they passed comment more. It might shut some fools up. And if Mr Billings joined in perhaps he could even tell us why the rules are as they are and end the discussion comprehensively.

(in reply to pasternakski)

Post #: 236

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/7/2008 2:27:02 AM

Kingfisher

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I'm reading "Fleet Admiral, The Story Of William F. Halsey" and on page 50 from the "Fliers from Shangri-La" chapter it got me thinking about this thread. Obviously noone is going to change their minds, no matter the information put forth but in a effort to humor some.

quote:

Night came on. Some of the B-25's found themselves still over the sea-but, their navigators questioned, what sea? Others were over land- but was it japan, Korea, or China? There were no lights, no cities to be seen, no landing fields. Below there was only stormy sea or desolate, craggy mountains. Some crews took a vote: Shall we bail out? Or stay with her till she goes coughing on the last cupful of gas?

This kinda thing went on all the time, and usually when it was the first mission against a target by a particular squadron or group ( whatever ).
As for it maybe being the "norm", I think not.

One can't help but wonder how a successful night bombardment campaign can be sustained if a squadron's first stab at a target results in them being as hopelessly lost as the planes mentioned above.

(in reply to DEB)

Post #: 237

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/7/2008 2:44:51 AM

DEB

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Agreed, however as I stated it was not the norm & as I understand it just "more likely" on the first trip!

(in reply to Kingfisher)

Post #: 238

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/7/2008 2:46:43 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kingfisher
One can't help but wonder how a successful night bombardment campaign can be sustained if a squadron's first stab at a target results in them being as hopelessly lost as the planes mentioned above.

I believe, from what little research into the matter I have done, that the Japanese were far more advanced, at the beginning of the war, both in training and experience, in conducting night air attacks than the Allies. Of course, the Americans learned as they went along (particularly in Europe) how to do this, and refined their equipment and training accordingly, so that they were conducting mass night raids over Japan in 1945.

How much better might the Japanese have become had they continued to emphasize this bombing strategy? Who knows? They ran out of planes, pilots, and time before they could find out.

The U.S. Navy was, of course, extremely concerned about Japanese night flying capabilities late in the war (witness the carrier squadrons devoted to noght CAP and anti-strike missions). I believe, also, that a number of American ships were hit in night attacks (kamikaze and otherwise), so that their concern was, apparently, justified.

As far as representation of night bombing in this game, and how it ought to be changed, if at all? Who knows? Something this speculative ought to be left out (meaning "left as-si"), if (as I tried to point out many posts ago) it can change the play and balance of the game significantly, because, after all, this is "Uncommon Valor," not "Deviant Nighttime Behavior."

Unless god pronounces me wrong, of course...

< Message edited by pasternakski -- 7/7/2008 2:47:46 AM >

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Kingfisher)

Post #: 239

RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/7/2008 2:49:04 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB

Agreed, however as I stated it was not the norm & as I understand it just "more likely" on the first trip!

Good point. If you are headed for the same destination multiple times, you're bound to get better at finding it.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to DEB)

Post #: 240

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RE: unrealistic air combat...