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RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible?

 
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RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/16/2008 8:39:07 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: engineer

quote:

niceguy2005:
WOuld taking Ceylon really have limited RN capabilities...I mean would the IJN be bottling up the RN...or would they be so far out on a limb that they would be vulnerable to attack by a reinforced RN?


My answer is yes.

In 1942 and early 1943 they would be bottling up the RN and forcing everything in and out of Karachi/Bombay. Eventually, the British would build up Madras, Bangalore, and other bases in the South and make the Japanese vulnerable to counter-attack by no later mid-1943 and possibly late 1942.

If we back up to a standard WitP game without any fundamental mods, the typical arc is a rapid Japanese advance and a high-tide whether the Japanese player can get to an auto-victory in early 1943. The back half of the game is whether the Allied player can take advantage of his increasing material preponderance to see if he can get to a tactical or strategic victory by the end game. It's in that context that I have to admit I'm just not experienced enough with enough games under my belt to assess whether holding Ceylon either makes it much more likely for the Japanese to win or much harder for the Allies to win by the spring of 1946. My snap judgment is that the wisdom depends on the character of your opponent. A cautious Allied player might lose a race against the clock while a more aggressive Allied player would make me pay.



I guess my line of thought when I asked, would taking Ceylon help or hurt Japan, was that without India Japan would have to support a large force on Ceylon by traversing the Bay of Bengal with supplies. The British Empire provided a great number of bases rimming the Indian ocean from which to base fleets. I'm not sure the IJ could have kept a presence in Ceylon supported for very long.

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RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/16/2008 8:50:17 PM   
engineer

 

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Fair observation, but wierdly I think Ceylon is a safer conquest for the IJN in WitP than WPO.  In WPO you could sail a light cruiser from Africa and play pirate - think of the Emden.  In WitP, you could keep overwatch on the whole SLOC from the DEI to Ceylon with Betty's and Nell's.  The RN would need to beef up their raiders to include long range subs or carriers.  If you still have the KB around, then we're talking about the poor goat in Juraissic Park!  Ultimately, the Allies could start doing serious damage, but you need Privateers and Liberators at Madras running naval missions to make the last few hundred miles into Tricomalee living hell for the Japanese merchants. 

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Post #: 62
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/16/2008 8:58:08 PM   
Procrustes

 

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Check out these two great books:

Forgotten Armies: The Fall of British Asia, 1941-1945 by Christopher Bayly and Tim Harper

Forgotten Wars: Freedom and Revolution in Southeast Asia by Christopher Bayly and Tim Harper


The second picks up at the end of WWII.

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Post #: 63
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/17/2008 4:05:17 AM   
Heeward


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Given the basic questions are:
“If Japan did invade, how would it most likely have been done?"
"How would this have impacted the UK? “
 
Part 1 The Japanese could have invaded India:
 
They could have pursed the Commonwealth / Chinese forces across the border in a continuation of their live off the land / shoestring powered offensive. Allied forces would continue to collapse in front of the Japanese “Supermen”, even as the same invading army would significantly erode, as the Japanese Army continues its advance. The British were so of balance I do not believe they could have offered significant resistance at that time.
 
Or as discussed elsewhere, an invasion on Ceylon (July or August of 1942) and then a drive from Burma and an invasion of the Indian east cost.
 
The Japanese Empire being a zero sum game – therefore something else is not done / supported. This means the cancellation of operations in southern and central pacific, and release of army reserves from Manchuria / Japan.
 
Part 2 How would it have impacted the UK:
 
Continued panic – This is historically evident in the travels of the 6th Australian Division, with various plans to divert it to Burma and Ceylon – delaying its arrival in Australia, also the arrival of the 7th Armored Brigade in India.
 
The UK government would have demanded a diversion / offensive be conducted ASAP by the USN in the Pacific to divert the Japanese, at the same time requesting that the USS Wasp and USS Washington remain in European waters.
 
The Royal Navy would have dispatched the A team to the Indian Ocean – The KGV / Nelson class battleships, newer cruisers and majority of their aircraft carriers.
 
The Australian Government would have insisted that the 2 AEF return to Australia even sooner.  Australian aircrew would have returned from the RAF / Europe. They would have been used to from new RAAF units.
The New Zealand Government would be most likely recalled the 2nd New Zealand Division. They may also withdraw their aircrew from the RAF as well following Australia’s lead.
It most likely resulted in the withdrawal of significant forces from the Middle East to hurriedly reinforce the “Indian Front”. This could have resulted in the defeat of UK in North Africa. – Remember there will be less troops to stop Rommel. A president is the British failure to finish off the Italians in Libya in 1940 / 1941 instead to take Ethiopia / Somaliland and the to reinforce Greece.
 
The loss of Australian and New Zealand Aircrew would have impeded the success in the Battle of the Atlantic – Bomber Command would have continued its futile offensive at Costal Commands expense.
Additional forces would have been dispatched from the United Kingdom to replace the forces dispatched from North Africa and/or to go directly to India.  In all of the above – shipping a scare commodity would have to be found to move these troops around.
 
Once in place the Australian (as historically), New Zealand and Indian Troops would not have returned to the European Theater. British / other Commonwealth forces once dispatched most likely would not have been shipped back to Europe either.
Additional Indian Army forces would have been raised.
 
 
Questions not asked
How this would have affected the United States:
Given a British defeat in the desert – US troops may have been sent to reinforce the 8th Army. There were plans to send the 2nd Armored Division.
With the Royal Navy busy else where Malta would have surrendered – allowing the Axis to move convoys across the central Mediterranean with less looses, and thus allowing the Germans to push harder east.
Reinforcement of the Pacific – due to security demands by the frightened governments of Australia and New Zealand.
Cancellation of Operation Torch due to lack of shipping, British participation, and US troop & equipment.
Increased Lend Lease to the Commonwealth and a decrease to the Soviet Union. If new Indian Army formations are being created then the equipment will have to come from some where either from forming US troops or those destined to the USSR.
 
Could the Japanese stayed in India / Ceylon?
No;
 
Japan would have to come up with a significant number of troops to occupy / police its rear. This in turns means more shipping to supply that large body of troops farther away from their primary source of supply. Japan might have been able to come up with the troops for a limited occupation, but they did not have the shipping they did not have enough to support their military and civilian economy as it was. Moving supplies far inland would have almost impossible – the IJA would have to have used horse transport to supply its forces or captured rolling stock. Japan could not produce any more rolling stock or motorized transport then they did.
 
Would the war have lasted longer?
 
Depends on whether you think the Russian Invasion of Manchuria, the dropping of the A-bomb or the combination of both caused Japan to surrender. One could make the argument that suspension of lend lease supplies in 1942/1943 to the Soviet Union, the defeat of Britain North Africa, could have delayed victory in Europe. This could have delayed / prevented the opportunistic invasion of Manchuria in on August 9, 1945 the day after Atomic Bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.


_____________________________

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Post #: 64
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 12:29:35 AM   
JWE

 

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Jeez, Louize, I think we have a winner here.

Heeward, I really like how you took the "premis" of a Japanese threat to India to its logical extension outside the parochial scope of the Pacific Theater. I also really like how you tied your possible implications back into their effects to the Pacific Theater. Very well reasoned analysis. Serious kudos.

This guy is a keeper folks.

(in reply to Heeward)
Post #: 65
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 1:00:40 AM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

Part 1 The Japanese could have invaded India:

They could have pursed the Commonwealth / Chinese forces across the border in a continuation of their live off the land / shoestring powered offensive. Allied forces would continue to collapse in front of the Japanese “Supermen”, even as the same invading army would significantly erode, as the Japanese Army continues its advance. The British were so of balance I do not believe they could have offered significant resistance at that time.


That is not correct. By the time Japanese forces had consolidated their positions in Rangoon, British resistence and Chinese resistence along the upper Irrawaddy had significantly improved, forcing the Japanese to attempt to dig in for a long campaign. Logistically overextended, Japan's attempt to sustain a campaign forced their effort to attempt to construct a Burma railroad. Vulnerable to air attacks, the never-completed railroad became a quagmire of death, sponging up ALL of Japanese logistical capability beyond the Malay peninsula into the Indian Ocean, and effectively terminating prospects for an invasion in Ceylon or India. Even in the event, the Japanese offensive by land towards India stalled, owing to a combination of effective allied resistence and the complete absence of the means (logistically) to continue forward.

quote:

The Japanese Empire being a zero sum game – therefore something else is not done / supported. This means the cancellation of operations in southern and central pacific, and release of army reserves from Manchuria / Japan.


The release of significant army reserved from Manchuria or Japan would have imposed an even greater logistical burden on Japan than the effort to sustain the (small by comparison) armies already committed to the effort to bring the overland fight into India through Burma. Moving armies out of (relatively well supplied positions) in Manchuria, or very well supplied positions in Japan, would have resulted in significantly greater attrition rates in Burma without increasing Japanese power projection in the Indian Ocean.

quote:

The UK government would have demanded a diversion / offensive be conducted ASAP by the USN in the Pacific to divert the Japanese, at the same time requesting that the USS Wasp and USS Washington remain in European waters.


No. The UK government would likely have welcomed any Japanese effort to field a larger army in Burma, because more Japanese would have died through malaria and malnutrition and at a greater proportional loss rate among the fielded Japanese army than Japan was currently losing. Almost certainly, attrition on the Japanese merchant fleet would also have increased, not only through submarine activity but also through the inability to keep up with normal maintenenance on engines and so forth. The relief that this massive diversion of Japanese assets would have brough to the United Kingdom would have allowed the western Allies to more rapidly develop bases and logistical centers in Australia and, likely, owing to inability to sustain Japanese Units in New Ireland, in Rabaul. The Japanese position at Truk would have been hopelessly undermined by an effort to Invade India, and the IJN's ability to react to anything would have been hopelessly compromised by the need to attempt to sustain six fleet CVs to protect operations in the Indian Ocean.

And having attempted to get ashore in India, Japan's army would have discovered even worse supply situations, coupled with a complete lack of mobility for their army ashore.

quote:

The Royal Navy would have dispatched the A team to the Indian Ocean – The KGV / Nelson class battleships, newer cruisers and majority of their aircraft carriers.


No. The Royal Navy would not be needed in the Indian Ocean. It would continue to operate in the Atlantic in the arena of greatest threat, and in the Mediterranean to sustain positions there. The only units likely to be withdrawn from western operations would have been RN submarines, and these would likely have seriously compromised Japanese efforts to sustain carrier operations for the duration required to secure a foothold in India or Ceylon.

quote:

It most likely resulted in the withdrawal of significant forces from the Middle East to hurriedly reinforce the “Indian Front”.


Doubtful at best. First, the RN would for the same reasons as Japan not have attempted in 1942-43 to sustain large troop transfers from the Middle East to India: lengthy supply lines. Secondly, the UK's ability to mobilize indiginous armies in India was greater than Japan's ability to project power in India. A sustained Japanese effort in India would have required only a small, modest UK force, and the Japanese would have been stuck to the most effective military "tar baby" in history.

Bear in mind, Japan could not subdue China, despite that nation's almost complete lack of a professional military, and despite that nation's near complete lack of large western Allied units, even though Japan already controlled much of China, even though Japan had air superiority in the theater, and with very very short Japanese logistical lines (as compared with what they would have had to sustain in the Indian Ocean).

quote:

This could have resulted in the defeat of UK in North Africa. – Remember there will be less troops to stop Rommel. A president is the British failure to finish off the Italians in Libya in 1940 / 1941 instead to take Ethiopia / Somaliland and the to reinforce Greece.


No, it could not. The Axis were doomed to lose in North Africa the instant the Axis failed to fully commit to the seizure of Malta. That campaign was substantially decided before the Japanese entered the war. Axis logistics in Africa, best described as a shoestring, was barely able to sustain Axis forces for the defense of Libya as a consequence.

quote:

The loss of Australian and New Zealand Aircrew would have impeded the success in the Battle of the Atlantic – Bomber Command would have continued its futile offensive at Costal Commands expense.


There would have been no diversion of assets from the Battle of the Atlantic. The only significant strategic threat to the United Kingdom, once the United States entered the war, were the German submarines.

The unasked question:

How would this effect the United States? Most likely, the USAFFE would have held out in the Philippines, ultimately defeating Japanese forces deployed to end the campaign there, as Japanese shipping and naval assets would be diverted to the Indian Ocean. Growing losses in the Japanese twin-engined bomber fleet as these attempted to suppress, without fighter support, RAF units in India, would have reduced Japanese ability to conduct basic recon missions in the central pacific. The consequent relief of USAFFE in November 1942 would have resulted in the restoration of civilian morale in the Malay barrier, and uprisings against the occupation regime would have required ever increasing garrisons to maintain production and protection in the Indonesian oil and rubber fields. Loss of Philippine rice supplies would have initiated malnutrition in the Japanese Home Islands by early 1943. These, by mid 1943, would have been disasterously escalated when US land based aircraft wholly sever Japanese supply lines between Malaya and Japan. By 1944, bereft of oil, food, and rubber, the Japanese war machine everywhere would have imploded as waves of starvation and disease reduced distantly deployed Japanese armies to small fractions of their original strength. Of the 100,000 IJA soldiers directed at an invasion of India, fewer than 1000 would live to see the sun rise on 1 January 1945, which would be the date of Japan's surrender.



_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 66
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 4:45:56 AM   
jwilkerson


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The bulk of the arguments thus far about why Japan could not invade India (in 1942) are irrelevant. The IJA had no intention of invading India, hence any realistic assessment of a potential Japanese invasion of India must include consideration of this lack of intention.

Military Intelligence includes “Intentions and Capabilities”. I am addressing the “Intention” part of the discussion.

The Japanese military (both IJA and IJN) really came of age as a result of the Russo-Japanese War. Foreshadowing is certainly available if we look at the Sino-Japanese War from the mid-90s, but the RJW attracted serious attention from the “Western” powers.

While voices in Japan were upset with the negotiated settlement, this “upset” was certainly laid against a background of pride in proving the clear superiority of Japan against the foreigners.

Yes, the IJA certainly declined in the teens and more so in the 20s. But Russia (or the Soviets) were always the enemy. From the late 20s the combination of Chinese and Soviet weakness lead the Japanese into increasingly interventionist adventures into “Manchuria” and portions of “China”.

With “China” as a sideshow and “Russia” as the main enemy (for the IJA) the IJA fought a number of actions in the late thirties. These actions combined with a increasing political independence give us a clear picture of the IJA as a force separate from the Japanese government.

So, the WITP gave the IJA a short term mission of supporting the Navy (IJN) in the occupation of the SRA. But once this was done the IJA determined that the WITP was effectively over. SRA forces were withdrawn to facilitate their preparation for use against the Soviets or a planned offensive in China, with a view towards knocking China out of the war.

The Guadalcanal campaign disrupted the IJA plans and from that point on the IJA was reacting to the Allies.

So, in 1942 (when it might have mattered) could the IJA have invaded India? Given the “soul” of the IJA - which was an anti-Russian Army - with an embarrassing side show commitment in China - which needed to be cleared up - absolutely not.

Discussion of an IJA invasion of India (in 1942) must first ignore the history of the IJA, the orientation of the IJA, the “soul” of the IJA. Such an invasion was impossible by the very nature of this Army which had higher priorities that were not very much influenced by the WITP.



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Post #: 67
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 5:57:27 AM   
JeffroK


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Heeward brings up some good points, but I think mdhiel put in some good counters.

We also have to factor in "The Monsoon" which arrived at about the same time as the Brits & Indians struggled into Imphal. Here they were greeted by fresh (and untrained) forces. What we dont know is what would have happened if India was invaded, I am unconvinced that Ganhdi & the Congress Party would have supported the japanese. Somewhere I have read a quote about " getting rid of a European ruler just to get an Asian ruler" The Brits would also have mobilised the full strength of the Indian Army rather than what could be supported on its un developed frontiers.

Was Ceylon a viable target, I think yes, but also an easier target for the Allies than its value would be worth.

Re the AIF & NZEF Divisions, what time period is proposed here? They were sent home in early 42 (6 Div held up in Ceylon for a spell) so they would have been in OZ. Maybe the 9th Divvy could have been made available.  I think that the NZ Div would have stayed in the Mid East, maybe the fall of Noumea or Fiji would have seen its redirection.

There are a lot of interesting questions about this scenario, keep them coming.

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RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 6:02:30 AM   
JeffroK


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From jwilkerson

So, in 1942 (when it might have mattered) could the IJA have invaded India? Given the “soul” of the IJA - which was an anti-Russian Army - with an embarrassing side show commitment in China - which needed to be cleared up - absolutely not.

Discussion of an IJA invasion of India (in 1942) must first ignore the history of the IJA, the orientation of the IJA, the “soul” of the IJA. Such an invasion was impossible by the very nature of this Army which had higher priorities that were not very much influenced by the WITP


I also think the logistics of the IJA was aimed in this direction, not supplying Divisions in India. While scrounging got them through short campaigns, it struggled in Burma as proven at Imphal/Kohima and at The "Admin Box"

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RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 5:08:44 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

The bulk of the arguments thus far about why Japan could not invade India (in 1942) are irrelevant.


That is incorrect. The context, being a discussion of what Japan *might* have tried to do differently, in a forum about a game that allows the person pushing Japanese assets to DO things differently, matters. An accurate assessment such as the one that I presented demonstrates waht a person pushing Japanese assets in such an alt-history consim ought reasonably to expect to happen.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 5:43:38 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
So, in 1942 (when it might have mattered) could the IJA have invaded India? Given the “soul” of the IJA - which was an anti-Russian Army - with an embarrassing side show commitment in China - which needed to be cleared up - absolutely not.

Discussion of an IJA invasion of India (in 1942) must first ignore the history of the IJA, the orientation of the IJA, the “soul” of the IJA. Such an invasion was impossible by the very nature of this Army which had higher priorities that were not very much influenced by the WITP.


To which we can add the IJA's reluctance to co-operate with the IJN, and outright resentment when forced to by circumstances (unfortunately only in history, not in the game.). Also the lack of shipping to support moving a sizable force to India and maintaining it (again the game makes possible what history didn't.)

Truth is, that while some action against Ceylon MIGHT have been feasible IF the two Japanese militaries could have been FORCED to work together..., invading India was a pipedream in reality and made possible in the game only by poor design decisions.

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RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 5:56:45 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

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The Problem of working together (both sides) exist.
Same ist the 20/20 about how to make the best out of the beginning (japanese ASW-Groups, large convoys, US Sir-Robin-attitude...)

if we cripple the possibilities, we kill the game.
As a player, i want to do things they did not in history. Without this i can make a slideshow with clicks, checks and thats it.

So, i repeat. Japan could have invade (sucsessfully) india, but could not hold it. Sure, the IJA and the IJN must not fight each other, Russia is not the "real enemy" and the invasion preparations for India have to be preplannend in 1939.

But given the forces the japanese player has, it could be done. In reality and in the game. For defeating the brits this is enough. Sadly, the game has no ability to support such invasion. The game-invasion isn´t realistic, cause with the real-time problems in china, india would be a nightmare

But it lead to the real core of the problem.
Do we want a tactical game (with hundreds of short scenarios, all historcal correct) or a strategic game?
Me wants the second. With the chance to kick allied a$$es as the japanese but also with the chance to defeat japan in 1943 cause my strategy as the allied CIC differ from the real strategy a lot.

The only thing we can do is to give both sides historical correct numbers. But to say "if one side can do something i do not to want them to do cut the possibilities" - the whole game is worth nothing. Player who want this should buy a book or two, maybe a "day for day"-diary of pacific war.

The game has nothing to do with it.

_____________________________

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Post #: 72
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 6:08:21 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Heeward

Given the basic questions are:
“If Japan did invade, how would it most likely have been done?"
"How would this have impacted the UK? “
 
Part 1 The Japanese could have invaded India:
 
They could have pursed the Commonwealth / Chinese forces across the border in a continuation of their live off the land / shoestring powered offensive. Allied forces would continue to collapse in front of the Japanese “Supermen”, even as the same invading army would significantly erode, as the Japanese Army continues its advance. The British were so of balance I do not believe they could have offered significant resistance at that time.
 
Or as discussed elsewhere, an invasion on Ceylon (July or August of 1942) and then a drive from Burma and an invasion of the Indian east cost.
 
The Japanese Empire being a zero sum game – therefore something else is not done / supported. This means the cancellation of operations in southern and central pacific, and release of army reserves from Manchuria / Japan.
 
Part 2 How would it have impacted the UK:
 
Continued panic – This is historically evident in the travels of the 6th Australian Division, with various plans to divert it to Burma and Ceylon – delaying its arrival in Australia, also the arrival of the 7th Armored Brigade in India.
 
The UK government would have demanded a diversion / offensive be conducted ASAP by the USN in the Pacific to divert the Japanese, at the same time requesting that the USS Wasp and USS Washington remain in European waters.
 
The Royal Navy would have dispatched the A team to the Indian Ocean – The KGV / Nelson class battleships, newer cruisers and majority of their aircraft carriers.
 
The Australian Government would have insisted that the 2 AEF return to Australia even sooner.  Australian aircrew would have returned from the RAF / Europe. They would have been used to from new RAAF units.
The New Zealand Government would be most likely recalled the 2nd New Zealand Division. They may also withdraw their aircrew from the RAF as well following Australia’s lead.
It most likely resulted in the withdrawal of significant forces from the Middle East to hurriedly reinforce the “Indian Front”. This could have resulted in the defeat of UK in North Africa. – Remember there will be less troops to stop Rommel. A president is the British failure to finish off the Italians in Libya in 1940 / 1941 instead to take Ethiopia / Somaliland and the to reinforce Greece.
 
The loss of Australian and New Zealand Aircrew would have impeded the success in the Battle of the Atlantic – Bomber Command would have continued its futile offensive at Costal Commands expense.
Additional forces would have been dispatched from the United Kingdom to replace the forces dispatched from North Africa and/or to go directly to India.  In all of the above – shipping a scare commodity would have to be found to move these troops around.
 
Once in place the Australian (as historically), New Zealand and Indian Troops would not have returned to the European Theater. British / other Commonwealth forces once dispatched most likely would not have been shipped back to Europe either.
Additional Indian Army forces would have been raised.
 
 
Questions not asked
How this would have affected the United States:
Given a British defeat in the desert – US troops may have been sent to reinforce the 8th Army. There were plans to send the 2nd Armored Division.
With the Royal Navy busy else where Malta would have surrendered – allowing the Axis to move convoys across the central Mediterranean with less looses, and thus allowing the Germans to push harder east.
Reinforcement of the Pacific – due to security demands by the frightened governments of Australia and New Zealand.
Cancellation of Operation Torch due to lack of shipping, British participation, and US troop & equipment.
Increased Lend Lease to the Commonwealth and a decrease to the Soviet Union. If new Indian Army formations are being created then the equipment will have to come from some where either from forming US troops or those destined to the USSR.
 
Could the Japanese stayed in India / Ceylon?
No;
 
Japan would have to come up with a significant number of troops to occupy / police its rear. This in turns means more shipping to supply that large body of troops farther away from their primary source of supply. Japan might have been able to come up with the troops for a limited occupation, but they did not have the shipping they did not have enough to support their military and civilian economy as it was. Moving supplies far inland would have almost impossible – the IJA would have to have used horse transport to supply its forces or captured rolling stock. Japan could not produce any more rolling stock or motorized transport then they did.
 
Would the war have lasted longer?
 
Depends on whether you think the Russian Invasion of Manchuria, the dropping of the A-bomb or the combination of both caused Japan to surrender. One could make the argument that suspension of lend lease supplies in 1942/1943 to the Soviet Union, the defeat of Britain North Africa, could have delayed victory in Europe. This could have delayed / prevented the opportunistic invasion of Manchuria in on August 9, 1945 the day after Atomic Bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.


yes, you said it.

an invasion in spring 1942 (even if not for long) could have lead to a superpanic (combined with rommels advance in africa again). if the consequence out of this is a conquered alexandria (possible), the brits would run wild. Without the pressure on the germans in africa, the eastern mediteraine fall to the axis, also the pressure for the french, to coorporate in africa would rise (remember, in russia things went well (at last it seems so in summer 42) and the brits are thrown out of egypt. This could also have an impact on indian liberation movement (the brits were really not welcome anymore)

Not to say this could have change the war, but it would be a huge satback for the brits and the pressure on the US would be even larger. In the moment egypt fall, the brits will force the US to draw even more troops and material to europe and india. This will cause india retaken, but probably india is in uprise (no british return). In the end, the japanese will loose little but the brits a lot.

IF the japanese invade india.

_____________________________

Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy dweebespit

(in reply to Heeward)
Post #: 73
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 6:51:38 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Japan never had the logistical capability to project sustainable naval power, much less Japanese army operations, near coastal India. That is the basic empirical flaw in the whole idea that Japan could invade India. Japan never did, because even if the IJA and IJN could have been forced to coordinate the effort flawlessly, there was no capability on the Japanese merchant fleet to sea lift enough persons and enough supplies into India to secure a lodgement and sustain operations. Japan STARTED the war more than three million cargo tons short of that which it needed simply to maintain its extant economy and its operations in China.

Operations in India would have required on the order of four times as much shipping as the extant operations in China. For Japan to have embarked on an invasion that could be imagined as anything other than a suicide mission with no real prospect for the pipe dream fantasies of "panic" underlying the (deeply irrational) "Japan could have invaded India" FANTASY proferred in this thread, it would have required on the order of ten million tons of shipping capacity that Japan never had. To say nothing of the added requirements for bunker grade fuel.

quote:

Player who want this should buy a book or two, maybe a "day for day"-diary of pacific war.


Player who want capability for Japan invade India should seek fantasy game set in alternate universe or in imagined future century rather than seek game about World War Two on planet Earth.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 7/18/2008 6:54:59 PM >


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Post #: 74
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 7:01:12 PM   
Feinder


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It's an interesting discussion.  I'll also highly recommend "Forgotten Armies".  It's very good insight into the diversity of the theater, and the dramatic impact of logistics on every operation, and  goes very deep into the politics (which can be quite dry at times, but certainly hugely important).

I'll just say that:

1.  By saying "if India were invaded then the middle east falls and this happens and this happens and all this collapeses" is getting ahead of the game.

2.  Any opportunities like invading India-Oz-NZ-Hawaii-MainlandAlaska, would have been the product of an extrodinarly unlikely sequence of events that would be required to play out FIRST.

3.  While conjecturing the perfect domino fall that leads to that sequence of events that allows a major invasion of India, you must also consider the other possability (or more aptly, the *likelihood*), of paralell and oppossing events that -will- occur during the "lead up" to the invasion that, (in all likelihood) would cancel the new eventline anyway.

(* shrug *)

It kind of reminds me of twelve too many time-travel episodes from Star Trek.

-F-

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Post #: 75
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 7:35:04 PM   
engineer

 

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The tease here is that WitP seems to give a Japanese player 80% of the tools to totally fight the war.  The player has control of all the military, all the production, a crude economic model is included so the oil and resource questions are on the table.  The things that are missing include the intelligence and diplomatic assets that complement the hard power. 

JWilkerson really hit on the key grand strategic question facing Japan in the 1930s.  The Soviets represented the mortal military threat to the Empire, but the Western Powers had sovereignty over the resources that Japan needed.  The first grand strategic question is north vs. south and WitP represents the consequence of that southern decision.  (Consider for a moment a northern grand strategy that might have allowed Japan to stockpile extra oil between the Russo-German agreement in August, 1939 and June, 1941 as a diplomatic nod toward cultivating a potential ally against the Berlin/Moscow detente - I know China would have prevented any sort of alliance, but a northern grand strategy might have led Japan to be more flexible on China.) 

The India question really falls into the post-initial onslaught, what's next question.  The Japanese can tackle Russia, China, Australia, India, Hawaii, or the South Seas.  I would suggest the historical strategy was to tackle Hawaii (Midway) and the South Seas (Guadalcanal) in order to pin the USA against the West Coast and isolate Oz.  The only two fronts where Japan had good logistics were China and Russia, but in both of those theaters distance would have have eventually made itself decisive.  The other fronts were even worse in the sense that the Japanese military had to try and win decisive battles too far from home.    mdiehl might seem obsessive about logistics but best men and equipment are just so many targets without the supplies to keep them as offensive threats

   

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Post #: 76
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 7:37:33 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi
if we cripple the possibilities, we kill the game.
As a player, i want to do things they did not in history. Without this i can make a slideshow with clicks, checks and thats it.


No problem with "possibilities" at all. But allowing the "impossible" turns the game into "Risk" instead of the War in the Pacific. The "game" should be "how well can I do with the same tools given to my real-life counterparts?", not "Give me lots more toys and I'll do many nifty things the historical commanders couldn't even contemplate." That's just playing with yourself...

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Post #: 77
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 8:18:22 PM   
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What Mike said.

...and if the dog wouldn't have stopped to take a sh1t, he would have caught the rabbit.

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Post #: 78
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 8:46:31 PM   
R8J


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Sounds like a good what if scenario.

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Post #: 79
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 8:49:40 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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I think a raid or quick seizure of Ceylon is possible certainly the British feared it - Churchill said the Bay of Bengal raid was the scariest moment of the war for him

Capturing Imphal in 42 maybe if willing to wreck an already exhauseted malaria ridden army in the Monsoon and even then its a 20 - 30% chance even against the untrained Indian forces and the remnants of Bur Corps

Marching on Delhi no way the same logistics that caused the allies grief in building up Assam work both ways and a landing somewhere on the East Coast is a waste because they would be facing the tytpe of conditions the Indian Army was better trained for - e.g. open country warfare Indian troops in training would have performed far better with clear fields of fire and not a hostile Jungle the Japanese Army was de facto a light infantry army it would struggle against the more mechanised forces the allies could field in India (5th British, 56th British, 70th British, 2nd British, 8th Indian, 10th Indian Divs all could be diverted without affecting teh ME to much)

It comes down to logistics, the monsoon and time


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Post #: 80
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/18/2008 9:42:40 PM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
It comes down to logistics, the monsoon and time



Wasn't that an old Hoagy Carmichael song?

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Post #: 81
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/19/2008 1:44:04 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
That is incorrect.


I sometimes hope you would have more to add to the discussion. I guess I am still wrong.



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Post #: 82
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/19/2008 1:49:04 AM   
Feinder


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Come on jwilkerson, don't mis-quote him.

He made the statement and expounded with rest of the paragraph.

quote:


That is not correct. By the time Japanese forces had consolidated their positions in Rangoon, British resistence and Chinese resistence along the upper Irrawaddy had significantly improved, forcing the Japanese to attempt to dig in for a long campaign. Logistically overextended, Japan's attempt to sustain a campaign forced their effort to attempt to construct a Burma railroad. Vulnerable to air attacks, the never-completed railroad became a quagmire of death, sponging up ALL of Japanese logistical capability beyond the Malay peninsula into the Indian Ocean, and effectively terminating prospects for an invasion in Ceylon or India. Even in the event, the Japanese offensive by land towards India stalled, owing to a combination of effective allied resistence and the complete absence of the means (logistically) to continue forward.  


You don't have to agree with what he has to say.  Mod or not, don't throw a dart and then deliberatly omit his argument.

-F-

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RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/19/2008 3:22:06 AM   
Nikademus


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I think Joe's point might have been that the Burma railroad, a long term project has little to do with a discussion regarding an early invasion against India from the sea....nor was the British position in NE India after the rout of early-mid 42 all that solid.

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RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/19/2008 4:07:52 AM   
Grotius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius
I'd like to see some rules like those that pertain to the USA -- Indian armed forces that appear when Japanese forces set foot in India, that sort of thing.

Be careful what you wish for!

LoL, that sounds like good news! Woo!

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Post #: 85
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/19/2008 6:05:57 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Mod or not, don't throw a dart and then deliberatly[sic] omit his argument.



Oh how I wish I could not be a MOD ...


But you're right .. either way .. I should not lower myself to his level.


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Post #: 86
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/19/2008 6:34:01 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Oh how I wish I could not be a MOD ...

Be careful what you wish for...

quote:

But you're right .. either way .. I should not lower myself to his level.


And what level is that? Posturing yourself as superior to someone because you don't like his style of posting?

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Post #: 87
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/19/2008 1:49:31 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

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mike,

the question is, what is impossible?
You think, invading india is impossible.
If we take the situation in dec 1941, i agree.
BUT - if we have a game like witp, we could also say, that the japanese are ready to take out the brits to free troops in the pacific. This does not include 10 new divisions, 10 new supercarriers or 50 new destroyers. (That would be "risk")

But - and this should be possible - the player can try to conquer india and at last a chance to be sucsessfull should be in the game.

Or - the way a blocked non-player argue - we say the pacific war has to follow a certain way and if the midway-results do not happen 999 in 1000 times, the game is sh!t. But if the developer follow this way, they can play it alone. Playing the allies i have no time for such a boring and stupid slide-show.

So, with the game starts an december 1941 it should be possible for the japanese player to invade and conquer india - the price he has to pay should be higher as it is in the moment. But - knowing that the brits were hated by the indians, the support for the brits would be low. For the japanese in the game this should mean a 6 Month-delay of revolution, but after that, the indian get upset and kick british AND japanese a$$es all other india. So, an allied indian division turn hostile to the brits, if not at last twice the british troops are there. For the japanese it is worse. They need two times the troops, they need in china.

The brits maybe must withdraw all troops out of india and the usa needs a lot "friendly" troops for calm down. I know, the game can´t handle this situation. But this would be really interesting.
So - my idea for invading india is: 180 days after conquering a base it turns hostile and need twice the troops as in china.
The brits need the same level of troops as the japanese in china (they were occupators, no friends. If say 30% of the bases are conquered by japan, a chance of killing ghandi turns india in a deasaster for the brits (India enemy to britian an japan)

It make everything more complicated, but to say "they could not do it - so everything has to be manipulated" is a gamekiller.

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Post #: 88
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/19/2008 1:51:09 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

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well - some certain posters (who never played the game) are really difficult. The best thing is the green button. So the mdhiel-free-zone is established.

what a wonderful world

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Post #: 89
RE: Was an invasion of India ever really possible? - 7/19/2008 3:11:53 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
And what level is that? Posturing yourself as superior to someone because you don't like his style of posting?

Exactly!



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