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Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/24/2008 7:06:42 PM

benpark

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I just downloaded and scanned the manual, then started the 1940 scenario.

Good so far (30 minutes in): Ability to upgrade divisions to corps sized units, the board game look, the movement/combat system that allows multiple attacks in a reasonable manner, simplified air and naval combat allows focus on land combat, the game feels like a certain classic board game that I played for hours in the early 1980's

Not so good: Anything but the zoomed in view is unreadable on my 23" monitor, no on screen city names, map is good at relaying terrain but not nice to look at, some diplomacy elements confusing so far (how to force an enemy surrender for one).

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Post #: 1

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/24/2008 7:10:05 PM

Erik Rutins

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Ben,

quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark
Good so far (30 minutes in): Ability to upgrade divisions to corps sized units, the board game look, the movement/combat system that allows multiple attacks in a reasonable manner, simplified air and naval combat allows focus on land combat, the game feels like a certain classic board game that I played for hours in the early 1980's

Glad you're enjoying it. It definitely has some similarities to a variety of grand strategy games, but it also has its own innovations.

quote:

Not so good: Anything but the zoomed in view is unreadable on my 23" monitor, no on screen city names, map is good at relaying terrain but not nice to look at, some diplomacy elements confusing so far (how to force an enemy surrender for one).

Hm, I can play fine in the zoomed in and first zoom out mode, the rest for me are just to get an overall snapshot.

Have you tried in the options the other map and counter styles? For example, there's the normal and classic map as well as the "figures" for counters or the classic nato symbols on square chits (my preference).

Regards,

- Erik

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 2

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/24/2008 7:16:10 PM

benpark

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The counters are good, I'm using them as well. The map could just use a little punch up.

If the zoom could be sharpened up a little more on the second one in, that would fix it for me. Playing zoomed in is good for most everything so far.

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Post #: 3

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/24/2008 7:22:42 PM

benpark

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One other thing that I really had hoped for- unit stacking.

This seems to be something that most developers of the last few strategic/high operational wargames don't like. It's still one of the best ways to depict the massing of assets for breakthrough. At the games scale, stacking two (or 3) divisions together seems like a realistic proposition.

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Post #: 4

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/24/2008 8:05:06 PM

doomtrader

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Hi benpark,

Nice to know that the first impression is fine :)

Instead of stacking you can attack from multiple directions.

Of course we will think about such option in next releases ;)

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RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/24/2008 8:08:47 PM

benpark

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I agree, the multiple unit attack is a good solution. Maybe allowing for stacking for divisional units, but not corps might be a good happy medium?

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Post #: 6

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/24/2008 11:53:47 PM

pasternakski

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I just coughed up the dough for this, and I guess this is the best place (so far) to offer observations about glitches, bugs and such.

I have just noodled around in this and the manual for a little while, and I like what I see so far, but there are a few things that need to be addressed (there are some little things, but these will do for now, until later).

1. In the manual, under Diplomacy on pages 57-58, some tester or other reviewer questions were left in that need to be removed. I noted a few editing glitches that could stand some attention, but I'll get around to those some other time, as there are no critical matters. This manual is a very good job, by the way, well written, concise, properly idiomatic, and nicely presented. I am having some difficulty understanding the way national government type and alliance orientation work, but I suspect that will become clear on experience with the actual game mechanics.

2. No Malta? You've got to be kidding. No Malta in a game covering World War II in Europe? C'mon.

3. In the game startup screens, various of the choices (filters and human/AI control in particular) disappear after being accessed for the first time. You can still click on them by estimating their position with the mouse cursor, but this needs to be fixed.

Again, there's a lot here to like, from what I've seen so far. As Erik said, it reminds me a lot of CoS, which was one of my favorite games until my technology advanced to the point where my computer wouldn't run it anymore.

Looks good. I don't mind the map and much prefer the NATO counters. The little 3D deedliebobs leave me absolutely cold.

The handling of HQs by merely attaching a leader to an already-existing unit is an absolutely inspired simplification. I just hope it's not too difficult to keep track of where everybody is. I mean, I would hate to lose track of where Patton got off to. A leader list indicating current assignment would be useful (maybe there already is one, but I haven't gotten that far yet).

Auf wiedersehen - fur jetzt...

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Post #: 7

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 12:02:20 AM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
1. In the manual, under Diplomacy on pages 57-58, some tester or other reviewer questions were left in that need to be removed.

Whoops, thanks for the heads up, I'll take a look.

quote:

3. In the game startup screens, various of the choices (filters and human/AI control in particular) disappear after being accessed for the first time. You can still click on them by estimating their position with the mouse cursor, but this needs to be fixed.

Thanks, will try to duplicate.

quote:

Again, there's a lot here to like, from what I've seen so far. As Erik said, it reminds me a lot of CoS, which was one of my favorite games until my technology advanced to the point where my computer wouldn't run it anymore.
Looks good. I don't mind the map and much prefer the NATO counters. The little 3D deedliebobs leave me absolutely cold.

Glad you're enjoying it - I also prefer to play with the "counters with symbols" option.

quote:

The handling of HQs by merely attaching a leader to an already-existing unit is an absolutely inspired simplification. I just hope it's not too difficult to keep track of where everybody is. I mean, I would hate to lose track of where Patton got off to. A leader list indicating current assignment would be useful (maybe there already is one, but I haven't gotten that far yet).

Hm, good suggestion - though we do show a little bronze star in the top right for units with leaders assigned, it would be nice to see a list of where everyone is.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 8

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 12:06:51 AM

marklv

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I've tried to play the game as Germany. It's UNPLAYABLE!

Even attacking Poland in 1939 every German unit seems to get very high losses while the Polish units get minimal. This is historical GARBAGE! In reality the Polish units were no match for the Germans, who conquered Poland very easily with limited casualties.

This game is a waste of money. I'm very disappointed and angry.

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Post #: 9

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 12:11:52 AM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marklv
I've tried to play the game as Germany.� It's UNPLAYABLE! �Even attacking Poland in 1939 every German unit seems to get very high losses while the Polish units get minimal.� This is historical GARBAGE!� In reality the Polish units were no match for the Germans, who conquered Poland very easily with limited casualties.
This game is a waste of money.� I'm very disappointed and angry.

You might want to consider taking another look at the manual. I'm able to overrun Poland with minimal losses. The key is to use multi-directional attacks rather than just pitting one unit against one unit.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 10

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 12:14:48 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marklv

I've tried to play the game as Germany.� It's UNPLAYABLE! �Even attacking Poland in 1939 every German unit seems to get very high losses while the Polish units get minimal.� This is historical GARBAGE!� In reality the Polish units were no match for the Germans, who conquered Poland very easily with limited casualties.

This game is a waste of money.� I'm very disappointed and angry.

Easy, now. Give it awhile. If it's anything like all the other computer games I have bought, eventually it will p1ss you off in ways you never even suspected at first.

Seriously, though, give it a chance. None of us can have a thorough idea of what we're doing yet.

On behalf of the Poles, you must realize that many of their units fought with courage and inflicted some tactical losses on the Germans. The thing that made it such a walkover (and remember that it did take over six weeks) was the lack of support and replacements for Polish units, and the complete domination of the skies by the Germans. Their superior attack doctrine didn't hurt, either.

I recommend patience. That's my plan.

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And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 11

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 12:35:08 AM

Erik Rutins

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To be more specific, make sure you read section 6.2 carefully. I think what you must be missing is how to do coordinated multi-directional attacks. Every unit can participate in one of these per turn. Use these to destroy or severely damage the opposing unit and then you can use single attacks to mop up. Pay attention to the odds estimate. Ideally you want 6:1 or 7:1 odd for best results.

Also, remember to use your airpower to soften up enemy units. The Luftwaffe is more than a match for the Polish airforce and can make the invasion of Poland a lot easier without taking too many losses if handled carefully.

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Post #: 12

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 2:03:20 AM

benpark

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Add Lake Balaton in Hungary to missing geography.

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Post #: 13

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 2:06:36 AM

panzers

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Sounds like combined arms is quite necessary in this game. I love that, Little short on cash at the moment for I was not prepared for this little surprise you guys sprung on us, but I do want to get it. It sounds very nice.

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Post #: 14

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 12:17:14 PM

marklv

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: marklv
I've tried to play the game as Germany.� It's UNPLAYABLE! �Even attacking Poland in 1939 every German unit seems to get very high losses while the Polish units get minimal.� This is historical GARBAGE!� In reality the Polish units were no match for the Germans, who conquered Poland very easily with limited casualties.
This game is a waste of money.� I'm very disappointed and angry.

You might want to consider taking another look at the manual. I'm able to overrun Poland with minimal losses. The key is to use multi-directional attacks rather than just pitting one unit against one unit.

Regards,

- Erik

I understand Erik but there is too much bias in favour of defence in this game. Maybe I'm just confused, but even when attacking the USSR in 1941 the Germans are sustaining ridicuously high losses for little gain. Historically, the Germans killed 4-5 times their own losses when first invading the USSR, but the games does not reflect the huge German superiority in fighting skill and armaments.

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Post #: 15

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 12:21:24 PM

marklv

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: marklv

I've tried to play the game as Germany.� It's UNPLAYABLE! �Even attacking Poland in 1939 every German unit seems to get very high losses while the Polish units get minimal.� This is historical GARBAGE!� In reality the Polish units were no match for the Germans, who conquered Poland very easily with limited casualties.

This game is a waste of money.� I'm very disappointed and angry.

Easy, now. Give it awhile. If it's anything like all the other computer games I have bought, eventually it will p1ss you off in ways you never even suspected at first.

Seriously, though, give it a chance. None of us can have a thorough idea of what we're doing yet.

On behalf of the Poles, you must realize that many of their units fought with courage and inflicted some tactical losses on the Germans. The thing that made it such a walkover (and remember that it did take over six weeks) was the lack of support and replacements for Polish units, and the complete domination of the skies by the Germans. Their superior attack doctrine didn't hurt, either.

I recommend patience. That's my plan.

Who is saying the Poles were not brave? I'm talking about weapons technology here; the Poles were using cavalry charges against tanks.

The problem with this game is reflected in the 1941 scenario as well; the USSR is too strong. Historically, the Russians lost upwards of five times the number of German losses in the first months of the war. Even in the later stages, the Russians were still losing two or even three times the number of German losses.

This game need serious revision and patching. As far as I'm concerned it's still a work in progress.

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Post #: 16

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 12:25:32 PM

marklv

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

To be more specific, make sure you read section 6.2 carefully. I think what you must be missing is how to do coordinated multi-directional attacks. Every unit can participate in one of these per turn. Use these to destroy or severely damage the opposing unit and then you can use single attacks to mop up. Pay attention to the odds estimate. Ideally you want 6:1 or 7:1 odd for best results.

Also, remember to use your airpower to soften up enemy units. The Luftwaffe is more than a match for the Polish airforce and can make the invasion of Poland a lot easier without taking too many losses if handled carefully.

I'm sorry Erik. I'm a software testing manager by profession, and I seriously could not recommend this game for release under its present state.

Another thing I've found is that it keeps crashing and freezing, for no reason. I am running Windows XP and have a powerful gaming laptop from Dell.

The strength of defenders needs to be carefully reviewed and made as historically accurate as possible, and the 1941 scenario needs to reflect initial Soviet lack of preparation and technological inferiority. Only Soviet tank units were any good, and even here the poor leadership negated the technical superiority.

I look forward to seeing an update in a few weeks.

On the positive side, this game has huge potential. It's a much more serious piece than Commander, which is more a learning tool for kids than a serious wargame. Clash of Steel was my favourite game of the early 1990s and it took me a long time to master, but it did have its flaws and should have been revised and re-released. Sadly, it never happened.

< Message edited by marklv -- 7/25/2008 12:29:35 PM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 12:31:49 PM

doomtrader

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quote:

the Poles were using cavalry charges against tanks.

Must say it's not truth
Please compare how long last the Polish campaign and the French campaign. Also take a look how easy was to defend Poland attacked from four directions and France attacked only from East.

quote:

Another thing I've found is that it keeps crashing and freezing, for no reason. I am running Windows XP and have a powerful gaming laptop from Dell.

Could you please report configuration in technical subforum.

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Post #: 18

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 12:48:22 PM

comrade

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marklv, play as Poland and see how much losses you can deal to AI controlled Germany. :)

BTW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_campaign#Myths ;)

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RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 12:59:11 PM

chris0827

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Never use Wikipedia as a source. The Luftwaffe lost nowhere near 25% of it's strength in the Polish Campaign.

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RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 1:01:30 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marklv
I understand Erik but there is too much bias in favour of defence in this game. Maybe I'm just confused, but even when attacking the USSR in 1941 the Germans are sustaining ridicuously high losses for little gain. Historically, the Germans killed 4-5 times their own losses when first invading the USSR, but the games does not reflect the huge German superiority in fighting skill and armaments.

You posted that you took serious losses as Germany when attacking Poland. That simply doesn't happen when I play, which made me think that you were missing some part of how hte game works. I don't recall having ridiculously high losses when attacking the Soviet Union either, but I'll take another look.

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Post #: 21

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 1:03:52 PM

Erik Rutins

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Mark,

quote:

ORIGINAL: marklv
Who is saying the Poles were not brave? I'm talking about weapons technology here; the Poles were using cavalry charges against tanks.
The problem with this game is reflected in the 1941 scenario as well; the USSR is too strong.

I simply can't duplicate the problem you are reporting in terms of losses when attacking Poland, which tells me that it has to be a play style/learning difference. I'll try playing Barbarossa in the release version as well, but I don't recall any problems with that in the past.

quote:

This game need serious revision and patching. As far as I'm concerned it's still a work in progress.

As I said, I'll try to duplicate, but because your Poland results are so far off from what I see, I have a tough time taking these comments as authoritative.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 22

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 1:06:41 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marklv
I'm sorry Erik. I'm a software testing manager by profession, and I seriously could not recommend this game for release under its present state.

It's disappointing to see someone make a post like this. So far you've posted results that the only way I can duplicate them is by not playing the game the way it was designed to be played.

quote:

Another thing I've found is that it keeps crashing and freezing, for no reason. I am running Windows XP and have a powerful gaming laptop from Dell.

Please post some reports for us in the Tech Support forum. I played through two years yesterday without a single crash or freeze. I'm sure these are happening to you, but we can't help investigate or fix these issues without some details.

quote:

The strength of defenders needs to be carefully reviewed and made as historically accurate as possible, and the 1941 scenario needs to reflect initial Soviet lack of preparation and technological inferiority. Only Soviet tank units were any good, and even here the poor leadership negated the technical superiority.

I'll take another look at Barbarossa, perhaps it got a little too hard in the release version, but I had success with it in the past.

quote:

On the positive side, this game has huge potential. It's a much more serious piece than Commander, which is more a learning tool for kids than a serious wargame.

Thanks for the positive comments as well.

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Post #: 23

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 1:27:06 PM

Anraz

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Concerning Barbarossa - try to cut off Soviet units and then create big pockets. Encircled units are easy to destroy, because they have reduced effective strength. Try this tactics and you will succeed.

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Post #: 24

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 3:03:17 PM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
1. In the manual, under Diplomacy on pages 57-58, some tester or other reviewer questions were left in that need to be removed.

Whoops, thanks for the heads up, I'll take a look.

Hi Erik,

Check page 48 as well, rule 12.5.1. The third bullet point should read Eastern Mediterranean, not Eastern Atlantic.

Jim

Edit:
Also rule 12.5.6 contradicts itself.

Rule 15.1 Allied and Axis are reversed.

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 7/25/2008 3:19:10 PM >

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RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 3:54:47 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
Check page 48 as well, rule 12.5.1. The third bullet point should read Eastern Mediterranean, not Eastern Atlantic.

Jim

Edit:
Also rule 12.5.6 contradicts itself.

Rule 15.1 Allied and Axis are reversed.

Thanks Jim, will have a look at those as well.

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Post #: 26

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 4:28:01 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
1. In the manual, under Diplomacy on pages 57-58, some tester or other reviewer questions were left in that need to be removed.

Whoops, thanks for the heads up, I'll take a look.

Hi Erik,

Check page 48 as well, rule 12.5.1. The third bullet point should read Eastern Mediterranean, not Eastern Atlantic.

Jim

Edit:
Also rule 12.5.6 contradicts itself.

Rule 15.1 Allied and Axis are reversed.

Yep, these are exactly the other things I was going to use to start a list. Good job, Jim, I see our great minds are thinking alike once again...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 27

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 4:35:34 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: panzers

Sounds like combined arms is quite necessary in this game. I love that, Little short on cash at the moment for I was not prepared for this little surprise you guys sprung on us, but I do want to get it. It sounds very nice.

Notwithstanding some ill-considered posts to the contrary, I am gratified that this game is as polished a product as it is. For me, it is very stable, presents a nice, simple representation of this conflict, and gives you a lot of decisions to make without burdening you with highly detailed mechanics and micromanagement. The AI seems, so far, quite good, and that stands to reason, given that the game is not an especially complex one, and this feature in itself says good things about the designers and the amount of time and trouble they took in "getting it right."

It is, in short, a lot of fun, and I look forward to playing this one for a good, long time.

Now, if we could just get Malta on the map ... and Scapa Flow ...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 28

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 4:40:16 PM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marklv
I'm a software testing manager by profession, and I seriously could not recommend this game for release under its present state.

Your comments so far indicate a disagreement with how the game presents combat capabilities of German arms in the early part of the war. I just have not seen this, although I have only had the game for a few days. You may be right, but I cannot agree with your conclusion this early in my own experience with the game.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to marklv)

Post #: 29

RE: Obligitory Initial Impressions Thread - 7/25/2008 4:48:31 PM

Plainian

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Scapa and Malta could be a problem in game where there is no stacking? Either they'd have to be 'special' 3 hex locations to allow air/ground/naval units or be some kind of off map box?

Quick question. Is the Russo-German 39 partition of Poland an event? I see a screen pic on the ww2 site which shows German units attacking into Russia but it looks like its the original Polish borders?

Weather question edited out and moved to correct topic heder.

< Message edited by Plain Ian -- 7/25/2008 5:14:21 PM >

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Post #: 30