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RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/28/2008 2:52:27 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB
Thie Gekko used its two downward pointing 20mm cannons (on other occasion he had used the guns that pointed upwards).

This kind of confusion is why I will never buy auto insurance from a lizard.

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Post #: 331
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/28/2008 2:54:10 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB
You don't really read this thread do you?

Why would anyone in his right mind want to do that?

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to DEB)
Post #: 332
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/28/2008 8:25:34 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
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........and on and on.............

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Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 333
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/28/2008 10:59:07 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

So the Japs did night fighter combat before the USA & in our time frame.


That is incorrect. The USAAF deployed its first night-fighter units in the PTO in February, 1943, with detachments from the 6th PG flying P-70s sent to Port Moresby and Guadalcanal during that month.



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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 334
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/28/2008 11:00:50 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

Claims in C5M Babs
1. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)
P. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)

Claims in J1N1 Gekko
P. B-24 (June 30, 1943) possibly 42-40254 307th BG, MACR 30

Confirmed Night Fighter Victories
1 . B-17E "Honi Kuu Okole" 41-9244 (May 21, 1943)
2 . B-17E 41-9011 (May 21, 1943)
3 . B-17E "Georgia Peach" 41-24454 (June 13, 1943)
4 . B-17E "Naughty But Nice" 41-2430 (June 26, 1943)
5. B-17F "Taxpayers Pride" 41-24448 (June 26, 1943)
6. B-17F "Pluto" 41-24543 (June 30, 1943)
7. RNZAF A-28 Hudson NZ2033 (July 7, 1943) observer Sugiwara


Those claims are worthless unless you can confirm the loss of those bombers in USAAF records.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 335
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/30/2008 4:17:03 AM   
Ike99


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quote:

The Tainan Kokutai was renamed the 251st Kokutai in early 1943. In May of that year they received two J1N1 Gekko (Irving) nightfighters armed with upward and downward firing 20mm cannons. Flying from Lakunai Airfield near Rabaul, Kudo was the first to test the aircraft in combat, flying with Lt. (jg) Akira Sugawara as observer. He would become the first night fighter ace on either side of the Pacific War. Satoru Ono also flew from Rabaul.


Didn´t know this.

So shouldn´t CF have a few Japanese night fighters then?

quote:

Those claims are worthless unless you can confirm the loss of those bombers in USAAF records.


I would think these kills are confirmed as it list the serial number of the planes claimed along with nickname.

quote:

Wasn't this the name of Cat Stevens's last album ... before he became Yusuf Osama bin Islam Obama?


?

< Message edited by Ike99 -- 7/30/2008 4:21:33 AM >

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 336
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/30/2008 4:26:53 AM   
Nomad


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Cat Stevens wiki

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Post #: 337
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/30/2008 5:19:09 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

I would think these kills are confirmed as it list the serial number of the planes claimed along with nickname.


I don't believe any "confirmed kills" if there is a unit record available for the unit whose plane was allegedly shot down. If some history has examined the unit record for the unit whose plane was allegedly shot down and matches a "confirmed kill" to a plane that did not return, that meets a good standard.

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 338
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/31/2008 4:09:43 AM   
Ike99


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and another view...






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 339
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/31/2008 6:58:06 AM   
JeffroK


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Of course, even if the aircraft was lost on that date it could have fallen to AAA or accident (Ops Loss)
This would still allow  the aircraft wrekeage to be examined.

I'd doubt the one's claimed by bomb from the Babs, but 7 in 6-7 weeks isnt too bad. Even allowing for 2 lots of 2 in 1 night. I'm an Fighter pilots claims sceptic but I dont think these are too bad, now 18 in 1 day!!!!

Worth more investigation!

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Post #: 340
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/31/2008 7:09:47 AM   
pasternakski


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I noodled around through the search engines and found what appears to be confirmation of losses of at least a couple of the aircraft listed, with attribution to Japanese nightfighter activity.

So? This thread has not only wandered around its original topic, but now has departed entirely from any kind of discussion remotely related to that topic.

Ummmm ... what was it again?

And why does it matter? You've got a game. It doesn't do a great job always of depicting historical capabilities. It's still fun.

So go play it. The next one will be lambasted at least to the same extent for its deficiencies. So go play it, too.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 341
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/31/2008 9:55:25 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB

2. From :- http://www.pacificwrecks.com/people/veterans/kudo.html

The Tainan Kokutai was renamed the 251st Kokutai in early 1943. In May of that year they received two J1N1 Gekko (Irving) nightfighters armed with upward and downward firing 20mm cannons. Flying from Lakunai Airfield near Rabaul, Kudo was the first to test the aircraft in combat, flying with Lt. (jg) Akira Sugawara as observer. He would become the first night fighter ace on either side of the Pacific War. Satoru Ono also flew from Rabaul.

June 26, 1943
Shot down two B-17s, firing from below using 164 rounds of 20mm ammunition.

July 7, 1943
Took off for an evening patrol from Ballale flying with Akira Sugawara as observer. Thie Gekko used its two downward pointing 20mm cannons (on other occasion he had used the guns that pointed upwards). This would have required Kudo to approach the Hudson unseen from above and behind and then firing when in position 30 degrees above the Hudson's fore-aft axis (allowing for deflection).

Claims in C5M Babs
1. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)
P. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)

Claims in J1N1 Gekko
P. B-24 (June 30, 1943) possibly 42-40254 307th BG, MACR 30

Confirmed Night Fighter Victories
1 . B-17E "Honi Kuu Okole" 41-9244 (May 21, 1943)
2 . B-17E 41-9011 (May 21, 1943)
3 . B-17E "Georgia Peach" 41-24454 (June 13, 1943)
4 . B-17E "Naughty But Nice" 41-2430 (June 26, 1943)
5. B-17F "Taxpayers Pride" 41-24448 (June 26, 1943)
6. B-17F "Pluto" 41-24543 (June 30, 1943)
7. RNZAF A-28 Hudson NZ2033 (July 7, 1943) observer Sugiwara

So the Japs did night fighter combat before the USA & in our time frame.


2. 41-9011 (64th BS, 3rd BG) shot down by J1N1-S night fighter over St Georges Channel, New Britain May 21, 1943. Crew KIA.
7. NZ2033 3856 Mk III ? Previously AE501 from British Purchasing Mission contracts. Shipped to New Zealand on Manuel, BOC Unit 1 Hobsonville on 29 October 1941 and assembled at No.1 Aircraft Depot Hobsonville. To No.1 GR Squadron Whenuapai. To No.3 Squadron Gaudalcanal. Disappeared 13 July 1943 on flare dropping mission off Guadalcanal. Shot down by Japanese fighter near Shortland Beach. Flight Lieutenant Wilfred Rutherford, Flying Officer Vivian Eady, Gergeant Lisle Smith, Sergeant William Lankshear and Sergeant John McDougall missing presumed killed. Written off books at Guadalcanal on 23 August 1943.
Well the date is different for starters. I assume that it was lost at night as it was dropping flares


< Message edited by JeffK -- 7/31/2008 10:00:32 AM >


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Post #: 342
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/31/2008 10:03:58 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB

2. From :- http://www.pacificwrecks.com/people/veterans/kudo.html

The Tainan Kokutai was renamed the 251st Kokutai in early 1943. In May of that year they received two J1N1 Gekko (Irving) nightfighters armed with upward and downward firing 20mm cannons. Flying from Lakunai Airfield near Rabaul, Kudo was the first to test the aircraft in combat, flying with Lt. (jg) Akira Sugawara as observer. He would become the first night fighter ace on either side of the Pacific War. Satoru Ono also flew from Rabaul.

June 26, 1943
Shot down two B-17s, firing from below using 164 rounds of 20mm ammunition.

July 7, 1943
Took off for an evening patrol from Ballale flying with Akira Sugawara as observer. Thie Gekko used its two downward pointing 20mm cannons (on other occasion he had used the guns that pointed upwards). This would have required Kudo to approach the Hudson unseen from above and behind and then firing when in position 30 degrees above the Hudson's fore-aft axis (allowing for deflection).

Claims in C5M Babs
1. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)
P. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)

Claims in J1N1 Gekko
P. B-24 (June 30, 1943) possibly 42-40254 307th BG, MACR 30

Confirmed Night Fighter Victories
1 . B-17E "Honi Kuu Okole" 41-9244 (May 21, 1943)
2 . B-17E 41-9011 (May 21, 1943)
3 . B-17E "Georgia Peach" 41-24454 (June 13, 1943)
4 . B-17E "Naughty But Nice" 41-2430 (June 26, 1943)
5. B-17F "Taxpayers Pride" 41-24448 (June 26, 1943)
6. B-17F "Pluto" 41-24543 (June 30, 1943)
7. RNZAF A-28 Hudson NZ2033 (July 7, 1943) observer Sugiwara

So the Japs did night fighter combat before the USA & in our time frame.


1. 941-244 (43th BG, 63rd BS, *Honikuu Okole*) shot down by Japanese J1N1 night fighter over Gazelle Peninsula May 21, 1943. MACR 2459
2. 41-9011 (64th BS, 3rd BG) shot down by J1N1-S night fighter over St Georges Channel, New Britain May 21, 1943. Crew KIA.

7. NZ2033 3856 Mk III ? Previously AE501 from British Purchasing Mission contracts. Shipped to New Zealand on Manuel, BOC Unit 1 Hobsonville on 29 October 1941 and assembled at No.1 Aircraft Depot Hobsonville. To No.1 GR Squadron Whenuapai. To No.3 Squadron Gaudalcanal. Disappeared 13 July 1943 on flare dropping mission off Guadalcanal. Shot down by Japanese fighter near Shortland Beach. Flight Lieutenant Wilfred Rutherford, Flying Officer Vivian Eady, Gergeant Lisle Smith, Sergeant William Lankshear and Sergeant John McDougall missing presumed killed. Written off books at Guadalcanal on 23 August 1943.
Well the date is different for starters. I assume that it was lost at night as it was dropping flares




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Post #: 343
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 7/31/2008 5:42:03 PM   
mdiehl

 

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The other noteworthy aspect is that the J1Ns weren't radar directed, they were searchlight directed. They weren't true night fighters in these instances. They were day fighters operating in one of the few environments where the Japanese could provide enough supporting logistics to give them a small chance of success when operating at night. The UK was, of course, doing this sort of thing in 1940.

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 344
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 3:41:06 AM   
DEB


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From: Bristol , England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kingfisher


If launching 50+ planes from a carrier, forming up, navigating to the target (in formation), executing an attack, reforming for the flight home, navigating back to the carrier and then landing at night does not fit into your definition of a successful mission then what pray tell is?


Also hitting the Target with a worthwhile amount of hits. What you have quoted is a NORMAL mission.

quote:

Some people here have a problem providing any factual evidence


You need to reread the posts! The "factual evidence" is in there near the start. If that's not facts to you, you had better have your head examined.





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Post #: 345
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 3:55:36 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kingfisher



So it's your opinion that a major strike on an airbase would not be reported?


Most people here think that night attacks of any kind would never be large, if so, where indeed would the reporting be. We are talking night attacks by Carrier aircraft or by land based aircraft. The size of the raid is of little consequence to these points.

By the way ( just to pick on 1 odd thing ) the game allows the Japs to invade part of Australia. Where is that reported historically?

It's a Historical Simulation !! These odd things happen, otherwise the game would be rather pointless to play!!

(in reply to Kingfisher)
Post #: 346
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 4:02:26 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

Claims in C5M Babs
1. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)
P. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)

Claims in J1N1 Gekko
P. B-24 (June 30, 1943) possibly 42-40254 307th BG, MACR 30

Confirmed Night Fighter Victories
1 . B-17E "Honi Kuu Okole" 41-9244 (May 21, 1943)
2 . B-17E 41-9011 (May 21, 1943)
3 . B-17E "Georgia Peach" 41-24454 (June 13, 1943)
4 . B-17E "Naughty But Nice" 41-2430 (June 26, 1943)
5. B-17F "Taxpayers Pride" 41-24448 (June 26, 1943)
6. B-17F "Pluto" 41-24543 (June 30, 1943)
7. RNZAF A-28 Hudson NZ2033 (July 7, 1943) observer Sugiwara


Those claims are worthless unless you can confirm the loss of those bombers in USAAF records.


You don't believe in God either, right?

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 347
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 4:17:59 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

I would think these kills are confirmed as it list the serial number of the planes claimed along with nickname.


I don't believe any "confirmed kills" if there is a unit record available for the unit whose plane was allegedly shot down. If some history has examined the unit record for the unit whose plane was allegedly shot down and matches a "confirmed kill" to a plane that did not return, that meets a good standard.


If this "rule" was applied to all "kills" then very few aircraft would ever get shot down, and lots would end up just disappearing.

Generally standards apply, hence the "claims" & "confirmed Kills" sections of the report. If you can disprove any then do so.

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 348
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 4:20:52 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

I noodled around through the search engines and found what appears to be confirmation of losses of at least a couple of the aircraft listed, with attribution to Japanese nightfighter activity.

So? This thread has not only wandered around its original topic, but now has departed entirely from any kind of discussion remotely related to that topic.

Ummmm ... what was it again?

And why does it matter? You've got a game. It doesn't do a great job always of depicting historical capabilities. It's still fun.

So go play it. The next one will be lambasted at least to the same extent for its deficiencies. So go play it, too.



At last some sane comments, picture aside.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 349
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 4:31:15 AM   
DEB


Posts: 687
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From: Bristol , England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The other noteworthy aspect is that the J1Ns weren't radar directed, they were searchlight directed. They weren't true night fighters in these instances. They were day fighters operating in one of the few environments where the Japanese could provide enough supporting logistics to give them a small chance of success when operating at night. The UK was, of course, doing this sort of thing in 1940.


What, no comment re the two kills that JeffK confirmed!!

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Post #: 350
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 4:39:55 AM   
DEB


Posts: 687
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From: Bristol , England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB

2. From :- http://www.pacificwrecks.com/people/veterans/kudo.html

The Tainan Kokutai was renamed the 251st Kokutai in early 1943. In May of that year they received two J1N1 Gekko (Irving) nightfighters armed with upward and downward firing 20mm cannons. Flying from Lakunai Airfield near Rabaul, Kudo was the first to test the aircraft in combat, flying with Lt. (jg) Akira Sugawara as observer. He would become the first night fighter ace on either side of the Pacific War. Satoru Ono also flew from Rabaul.

June 26, 1943
Shot down two B-17s, firing from below using 164 rounds of 20mm ammunition.

July 7, 1943
Took off for an evening patrol from Ballale flying with Akira Sugawara as observer. Thie Gekko used its two downward pointing 20mm cannons (on other occasion he had used the guns that pointed upwards). This would have required Kudo to approach the Hudson unseen from above and behind and then firing when in position 30 degrees above the Hudson's fore-aft axis (allowing for deflection).

Claims in C5M Babs
1. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)
P. B-17 by aerial burst bomb (August 29, 1942)

Claims in J1N1 Gekko
P. B-24 (June 30, 1943) possibly 42-40254 307th BG, MACR 30

Confirmed Night Fighter Victories
1 . B-17E "Honi Kuu Okole" 41-9244 (May 21, 1943)
2 . B-17E 41-9011 (May 21, 1943)
3 . B-17E "Georgia Peach" 41-24454 (June 13, 1943)
4 . B-17E "Naughty But Nice" 41-2430 (June 26, 1943)
5. B-17F "Taxpayers Pride" 41-24448 (June 26, 1943)
6. B-17F "Pluto" 41-24543 (June 30, 1943)
7. RNZAF A-28 Hudson NZ2033 (July 7, 1943) observer Sugiwara

So the Japs did night fighter combat before the USA & in our time frame.


2. 41-9011 (64th BS, 3rd BG) shot down by J1N1-S night fighter over St Georges Channel, New Britain May 21, 1943. Crew KIA.
7. NZ2033 3856 Mk III ? Previously AE501 from British Purchasing Mission contracts. Shipped to New Zealand on Manuel, BOC Unit 1 Hobsonville on 29 October 1941 and assembled at No.1 Aircraft Depot Hobsonville. To No.1 GR Squadron Whenuapai. To No.3 Squadron Gaudalcanal. Disappeared 13 July 1943 on flare dropping mission off Guadalcanal. Shot down by Japanese fighter near Shortland Beach. Flight Lieutenant Wilfred Rutherford, Flying Officer Vivian Eady, Gergeant Lisle Smith, Sergeant William Lankshear and Sergeant John McDougall missing presumed killed. Written off books at Guadalcanal on 23 August 1943.
Well the date is different for starters. I assume that it was lost at night as it was dropping flares



The following website :-

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/hudson/NZ2033.html

disagrees your date re 7. & agrees the one listed on the website info I printed off. In fact "my" website gives a link on each confirmed kill to another website which confirms that confirmed kill.


< Message edited by DEB -- 8/1/2008 4:42:51 AM >

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 351
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 4:45:44 AM   
DEB


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My post of 28th July ( 2.49AM ) refers. Source re point 1. :-

http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent?file=PRwaves2

See also the following ( re the Battle of the Coral Sea ) :-

1. from : http://www.american-partisan.com/cols/2002/ww2/qtr2/0517.htm

This nighttime raid was not one of Admiral Hara’s better ideas. Out of the attack group of 12 bombers and 15 torpedo planes, 10 had been shot down by the Americans, and five more would be lost at sea trying to make the night landing. Both commanders mulled over additional night maneuvers, but further action would wait until morning 8 May 1942.

2. from : http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/battle_of_coral_sea.htm

To destroy the Americans carriers in the Coral Sea, Takagi selected his 27 best pilots for a night time attack against the carrier force. It was a disaster that was not helped by the poor weather. 21 planes failed to return - 11 were lost when they went over the side of the Japanese carriers when they attempted to land.

These differing sources show that night-time carrier OPs losses for this battle were between 18.52% ( total losses 55.56% ) & 40.74% ( total losses 77.78% ) respectively.
Note that OP's losses were 33.33% & 52.38% respectively of the total losses.
Note also that bad weather played a possible ( depending on source ) part in the OP's numbers lost, rather than just "poor landings".
NB: Source 1. may be the better source here re losses, as I have other ( book ) sources which say most of the losses were planes shot down.

IKE99's OP's losses were stated as "very high". The above figures mean that the game may well be over doing the night OP's losses!
Note that combat losses here are higher due to a Naval Attack rather than a Base Attack ( not unreasonable ).


(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 352
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 8:46:16 AM   
JeffroK


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DEB,

Your website seems to link to itself.

There is no doubt of the loss of the aircraft, just the date.

This is one problem I have often found when reviewing claims against actual losses.

Also despite the detail on the pacificwrecks site, it cannot say who shot them down. it was not unknown for kills to be credited to the Sqn/Flt commander OR for 2-3 pilots to make a claim for a victory. They all assume their shots were the fatal ones (More prevalent amongst US Hvy Bomber gunners)

I havent yet tried night missions in UV, might give them a bash and see how they go.

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Post #: 353
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 11:30:57 AM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB


You don't believe in God either, right?



Has it truly not dawned on you that some of us are intelligent enough to know better?

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Post #: 354
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 1:35:54 PM   
tocaff


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Leaving religion out of the forum, no matter what you do or don't believe in, would be an excellent idea.

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I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 355
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 6:55:41 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB

IKE99's OP's losses were stated as "very high". The above figures mean that the game may well be over doing the night OP's losses!
Note that combat losses here are higher due to a Naval Attack rather than a Base Attack ( not unreasonable ).



Haven't heard Ike say how many he's losing, but I'd doubt its 50-120 ac per raid (based upon the ops 300ac/raid).

(in reply to DEB)
Post #: 356
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 8:13:00 PM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB


You don't believe in God either, right?



Has it truly not dawned on you that some of us are intelligent enough to know better?


There's a difference between not believing something that you have not ascertained for yourself & not believing good evidence.

If I were to say that I disbelieved any US kill claim / confirmation that was not included in the losses reported by it's enemies, would I be presumed to be bias, I think so!

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 357
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 8:14:35 PM   
DEB


Posts: 687
Joined: 1/29/2005
From: Bristol , England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Leaving religion out of the forum, no matter what you do or don't believe in, would be an excellent idea.


Sorry. My fault I guess. It was just a turn of phrase.

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 358
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 8:19:13 PM   
DEB


Posts: 687
Joined: 1/29/2005
From: Bristol , England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Your website seems to link to itself.


Why should this be a problem? I presume you think it is?

quote:

I havent yet tried night missions in UV, might give them a bash and see how they go.


Please do, and let us know the results ( as and when you feel it is OK if on PBEM ) IDC.

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 359
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 8/1/2008 8:33:43 PM   
DEB


Posts: 687
Joined: 1/29/2005
From: Bristol , England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The other noteworthy aspect is that the J1Ns weren't radar directed, they were searchlight directed. They weren't true night fighters in these instances. They were day fighters operating in one of the few environments where the Japanese could provide enough supporting logistics to give them a small chance of success when operating at night. The UK was, of course, doing this sort of thing in 1940.


Interesting. Of course you fail to admit that the radar in this A/C was so poor it needed searchlights to assist! See below:-

http://www.usaaf.net/ww2/night/nightpg9.htm

Equipped with SCR-540 airborne radar (equivalent to the British Mark IV) and lacking superchargers, these first U.S. night fighters performed poorly. Most Japanese bombers flew above twenty thousand feet, while P-70s struggled to reach that altitude and operated best under ten thousand feet. Initially, the Americans lacked ground control radar, relying only on vague reports of penetrating aircraft from coastwatchers. Crews had to develop the techniques of ground controllers and antiaircraft 33 artillery coordination in combat. Against these obstacles, Pilot Capt. Earl C. Bennett and R/O TSgt. Raymond P. Mooney of Detachment B on Guadalcanal claimed the first U.S. radar-directed (using the SCR-540, Mark IV airborne radar) night kill on April 19, 1943, though searchlights illuminated the enemy aircraft until radar contact had been made. Pilot 1st Lt. Burnell W. Adams and R/O Flight Officer Paul DiLabbio claimed the only kill for Detachment A at New Guinea in May. Although three squadrons eventually flew P-70s in the Pacific theater, they claimed only two victims.

To make up for the technical shortcomings of the P-70, the 6th NFS acquired a few P-38 day fighters with the speed and altitude to intercept enemy aircraft. Loitering at thirty thousand feet over Guadalcanal, the P-38s had to wait for ground-based searchlights to illuminate enemy bombers. This reliance on searchlights limited them to one night kill in May 1943. Later attempts to free the P-38s from this dependence by equipping them with Navy AN/APS-4 airborne radars ultimately failed because of the excessive workload imposed on the lone pilot.

This website also advises:-

The Japanese army and navy air forces dominated the day skies in 1941 and 1942, however, and had the ( ? sic. no ? ) need to seek the night’s protection. Only when the United States seized daylight air superiority after January 1943 did Japanese night missions become the rule.

And :-

The initial experience of the United States with night fighters in the Pacific was not stellar. On March 20/21, 1943, Detachment B’s P-70s failed to stop Japanese night bombers from damaging fifteen of the 307th Bomb Group’s B-24s and five of the 5th Bomb Group’s B-17s on the ground at Guadalcanal. Eight months later, in November, enemy night bombers sank one and damaged three Allied ships at Bougainville. The AAF concluded from this initial experiment in night fighting that “it proved impossible to prevent the Japanese from inflicting some damage” on U.S. ground and surface forces.

See also:-

http://www.aviastar.org/air/japan/nakajima_j1n.php

the J1N1-S, entered production in August 1943 and continued until December 1944, during which period a total of 420 J1Ns were produced, the great majority of them J1N1-S night-fighters. These differed from the earlier reconnaissance version in having the crew reduced from three to two, the observer's cockpit being eliminated and faired over; all aircraft retained the upward-firing cannon, but the downward firing guns (found difficult to aim and seldom used) were omitted from later aircraft, while a third upper gun and a forward-firing 20mm cannon was fitted in the J1N1-Sa. Rudimentary centimetric AI radar was installed in the nose and some airciaft also carried a small nose searchlight. In service with the 251st, 302nd and 322nd Kokutais, the J1N1-S night-fighters proved fairly effective against the B-24, which was not in any case well-suited to night operations...

So they did use radar, just not in our period!

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 360
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