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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/6/2008 12:23:49 PM

jnier

Posts: 402
Joined: 2/18/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GJK

As mentioned elsewhere, I'm beta testing Computer War in Europe II (Decision Games) and am really impressed with what that will offer. What it doesn't offer however is an AI. It will be an excellent Pbem program though (and solo of course). I'm also very much looking forward to MWiF. I have some iteration of the boardgame but never had the chance to learn to play it. I will be very interested to see if an AI can even be programmed for something on such a grand scale that will provide a decent game (or if it will be more for learning the game and then when you want to really "play" you play against another human).

I've been waiting for CWIE2 for years. Do you have an ETA for it?

(in reply to GJK)

Post #: 31

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/6/2008 1:29:16 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzers

When it does come out, Joe, you will see that WiF is truly going to be the grandaddy of all war games for many years to come. You start playing this one and you will never be asking this question again

Perhaps, but the problem remains that we may never live to see it. It must certainly hold the record for the longest time in development.

Besides, I have yet to be convinced. From my perspective it never caught on with my boardgame group who played foure other gmaes in it's genre to death: Third Reich, WWII, ETO/PTO and Krieg. We just never found WIF to measure up to the others.

It has to be remembered that the computer port of World in Flames has always been a one-man project, first by Chris and then Steve, with quite a long hiatus in between. Since Steve took it over there has been consistent progress and religiously regular contact and consultation with the fan-base.

The latest news re a delay is a bit disappointing but it's just that the task is huge and with software development it's difficult to accurately predict timelines. Importantly, Steve doesn't want to sacrifice quality.

As to which is the best strategic WW2 boardgame...each to their own...but there's a large school of thought that WiF built on the best aspects of those that came before and many, many gamers consider it to be the best, especially at modelling the global/economic nature of the conflict. I've found that when you're familiar with one system, it's tough for a new one to appeal, despite its quality.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 32

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/6/2008 2:00:54 PM

canton

Posts: 19
Joined: 8/2/2007
Status: offline

I�ve no real favorit; actually iam playing alot of toaw but this isn�t really grand strategy. Iam looking forward to WiF and Computer War in Europe.

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 33

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/6/2008 3:02:32 PM

L�tzow

Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

I've yet to see a better WW2 Grand Strategy Title than HoI 2. Maybe World in Flames will do it.

WitP and TOAW 3 are both great games, but more on the operational side.

(in reply to canton)

Post #: 34

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/6/2008 3:53:16 PM

Peter Fisla

Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline

WitP, what a monster! Though a very playable monster :)

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 8/6/2008 3:54:26 PM >

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)

Post #: 35

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/6/2008 5:04:45 PM

GJK

Posts: 554
Joined: 7/17/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jnier

quote:

ORIGINAL: GJK

As mentioned elsewhere, I'm beta testing Computer War in Europe II (Decision Games) and am really impressed with what that will offer. What it doesn't offer however is an AI. It will be an excellent Pbem program though (and solo of course). I'm also very much looking forward to MWiF. I have some iteration of the boardgame but never had the chance to learn to play it. I will be very interested to see if an AI can even be programmed for something on such a grand scale that will provide a decent game (or if it will be more for learning the game and then when you want to really "play" you play against another human).

I've been waiting for CWIE2 for years. Do you have an ETA for it?

This is an "unofficial" statement, but per Karl Lean (developer) he has the final code just about ready for submission to Decision Games. When they release it though depends on their pipeline. His email made it sound that it could be quite soon.

(in reply to jnier)

Post #: 36

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/6/2008 11:31:39 PM

IanF1966

Posts: 37
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline

Ironically, for me, the greatest WW2 Grand Strategy Game exists-but it is within several games and does not exist alone yet, as a single title.

The greatest WW2 Strategy game has:

-The detail, research, standard features and parameters of Hearts Of Iron Armageddon (without the bugs)
-The look, GUI, 3-D Sprites, economics, ease of playability and moddability of Making History
-The minute single-soldier & supply/logistics details of War In The Pacific (which a player could choose optionally, or work on the 'grand' level)
-All of Pacific Storm/PS Allies features

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)

Post #: 37

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 12:08:57 AM

hjaco

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Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline

Two good arguments to play WIF is first it has been around for many years being improved and fine tuned. I bought my first boardgame version of it around 90'. Most of changes to the system has been brought around by requests from players and during the years it has been developed quite a lot.

The second reason is of a more practical nature. You need someone to play your games with and with WIF you are guaranteed a large global community playing WIF with many experienced players to choose from. An add on to this is immense volumes of player and strategy guides etc accumulated during the years.

(in reply to jnier)

Post #: 38

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 1:18:20 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
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quote:

Veldor. I don't lmow that you have looked at the WiF forum, but if you did, I don't think you would have much doubt that this project is being as done as professionally as you will ever see a game desigm.

So completely untrue unless you add two qualifiers... "Wargame game design" and "in the public's eye" then I'd agree 100%. And that's very commendable but let's be accurate and not exaggerate

quote:

What makes this game so unique is he has assembled some of the hardest core WiF players from all over the world to help him on this projrct.

Which is awesome, excellent, <insert favorite adjective here>, for the current WiF players but doesn't mean much of anything to those who haven't played. I'd honestly prefer to hear that there are hoards of people playtesting that have never touched the game before and that they are working on tuning the interface and tutorials to accomodate the under or un-initiated. I could care less if some optional rule or some nuance isn't implemented correctly. I'll never know either way.

quote:

I highly suggest you go to that forum and and take a look see what is going on in there. To say there are things going on in there that us unique to all of matrix's gaming is a terrible understatement.

Why do you assume I haven't already?

quote:

The game itself had been around close to 25 years now and it is aleays getting updated. It is withought question outside of maybe the ASL games the most intensly complicated game of all time., and the people who play this game religiously have put in a lot of their time to assist Steve in getting this out around Christmastime.

Sounds like you need to visit the forum

It aint makin Christmas.

quote:

Never in all my years of game playing have I seen such intense attention to detail. This game when it comes out will be the most heavily researched game by far ever in the history of the gaming industry because we have a worldeide fraternity that is stopping at nothing to ensure thuis thing comes out right and the first time. There will eventually be several add ons later but for now, we have so many volinteers helping Steve out in this project because we, more than anyone know what is at stake here. And what is at stake is something that should make WiTP like a monopoly game compared to this one. I don't know ghow many counters are in WiTP, but In MWiF there will be over 8600 of them, and that is not even close to be all of them. If you were to read all the pages of the game itself, it would be in excess of a thousanf pages when you factor in all the expansions that can come with it If you were to compare the two, then think of it this way, Everything you get in WiTP you pretty much get in MWiF, except you have to add the same complexity and detail the the entire world map, and as we all know, the european sector was much more complex tham the pacific. So everything is going to work out just fine. they have assembled the best team you could possibly have for a wargame such as this and everyone is working so well together. It is actually quite extrairdinary and being put together in a way that no game ever has done before. So keep the faith. This one is the real deal and If you were to look at all the postings on the WiF forim, you will probably rest a lot easier that this game is being put together the right way. It's nice to know that we have people who jave played this game, some of them for all 25 years, so they know all the nuiances of the game and that is a great help to Steve over there in matrix games
I will be taking several pictures of the upcaming con starting this weekend and will try to post them daily so that you can see what goes on in these games.
We're looking at about 30 to 50 people from all over the world to be at this convention, so that will mean 6 - 10 tables of games going on at once.

And outside of me playing devils advocate here.. All of what you say is essentially why I posted what I did. Agreeing with everything you say.... If WiF fails us I fear all hope is lost...We are done for...

If that game isn't successful and doesn't make a large number of people, myself included, very very happy.. Then there isn't even a point in trying again. Give up.

_____________________________

(in reply to panzers)

Post #: 39

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 1:21:49 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor
But what's still clearly lacking to me is my all-time favorite.... Turn-Based Tactical WWII. Where are my 6 choices there?!?! Lock 'n Load comes closer to completing a minimum lineup but still, based on WWII Grand Strategy Counts you should have 3 or 4 similar tactical titles like that by now...

Hm - Steel Panthers: World at War, John Tiller's Campaign Series, Panzer Command are the top three in the turn-based tactical WWII category. The first two are classics, the third is an entirely new 3D effort and all IMHO are great games. Have you tried all of those?

Erik, I did cover all 3 of those in my post. I'm looking for something new.. Which Matrix gives me a wide selection now on WWII Grand Strategy. In tens years you've made basically 1 new WWII tactical game. Even if I say its the greatest thing in the world.. it still falls far short on the number you guys have made vs Strategic or Operational etc.

And I don't like that 'cuz I love tactical WWII Games.

So I cling to hope for Lock 'n Load cuz thats all Matrix is bringing me

_____________________________

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 40

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 1:58:23 AM

panzers

Posts: 635
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Detroit Mi, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

quote:

Veldor. I don't lmow that you have looked at the WiF forum, but if you did, I don't think you would have much doubt that this project is being as done as professionally as you will ever see a game desigm.

So completely untrue unless you add two qualifiers... "Wargame game design" and "in the public's eye" then I'd agree 100%. And that's very commendable but let's be accurate and not exaggerate

quote:

What makes this game so unique is he has assembled some of the hardest core WiF players from all over the world to help him on this projrct.

Which is awesome, excellent, <insert favorite adjective here>, for the current WiF players but doesn't mean much of anything to those who haven't played. I'd honestly prefer to hear that there are hoards of people playtesting that have never touched the game before and that they are working on tuning the interface and tutorials to accomodate the under or un-initiated. I could care less if some optional rule or some nuance isn't implemented correctly. I'll never know either way.

quote:

I highly suggest you go to that forum and and take a look see what is going on in there. To say there are things going on in there that us unique to all of matrix's gaming is a terrible understatement.

Why do you assume I haven't already?

quote:

The game itself had been around close to 25 years now and it is aleays getting updated. It is withought question outside of maybe the ASL games the most intensly complicated game of all time., and the people who play this game religiously have put in a lot of their time to assist Steve in getting this out around Christmastime.

Sounds like you need to visit the forum It aint makin Christmas.

quote:

Never in all my years of game playing have I seen such intense attention to detail. This game when it comes out will be the most heavily researched game by far ever in the history of the gaming industry because we have a worldeide fraternity that is stopping at nothing to ensure thuis thing comes out right and the first time. There will eventually be several add ons later but for now, we have so many volinteers helping Steve out in this project because we, more than anyone know what is at stake here. And what is at stake is something that should make WiTP like a monopoly game compared to this one. I don't know ghow many counters are in WiTP, but In MWiF there will be over 8600 of them, and that is not even close to be all of them. If you were to read all the pages of the game itself, it would be in excess of a thousanf pages when you factor in all the expansions that can come with it If you were to compare the two, then think of it this way, Everything you get in WiTP you pretty much get in MWiF, except you have to add the same complexity and detail the the entire world map, and as we all know, the european sector was much more complex tham the pacific. So everything is going to work out just fine. they have assembled the best team you could possibly have for a wargame such as this and everyone is working so well together. It is actually quite extrairdinary and being put together in a way that no game ever has done before. So keep the faith. This one is the real deal and If you were to look at all the postings on the WiF forim, you will probably rest a lot easier that this game is being put together the right way. It's nice to know that we have people who jave played this game, some of them for all 25 years, so they know all the nuiances of the game and that is a great help to Steve over there in matrix games
I will be taking several pictures of the upcaming con starting this weekend and will try to post them daily so that you can see what goes on in these games.
We're looking at about 30 to 50 people from all over the world to be at this convention, so that will mean 6 - 10 tables of games going on at once.

And outside of me playing devils advocate here.. All of what you say is essentially why I posted what I did. Agreeing with everything you say.... If WiF fails us I fear all hope is lost...We are done for...

If that game isn't successful and doesn't make a large number of people, myself included, very very happy.. Then there isn't even a point in trying again. Give up.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Clearly you haven't read this entire thread nor the MWiF thread because if you did you would know that up until this month they were on pace for a December release ever since EiA was released. I never once said it WAS going to be released in December. You can hate WiF all you want, but the vast majority of us in here know how important and how very professional they are taking this game which you, for some reason, are not seeing. But that's fine. I think I'm speaking for a lot of people and where I have said a lot about this game, apparently people are agreeing with what I am saying for that posting was a long time ago, and you are the only one so far that is disagreeing with me. That is fine. I expected someome to reply from such a long post. it's a matter of to each their own, but please do not go misquoting me if you are going to do that.
Also, They haven't officially ruled out christmas yet. You need to read that particular forum on what everyone is saying after the August report.

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 41

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 2:08:59 AM

Sarge

Posts: 2841
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From: ask doggie
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So Matrix is saying December release is still on

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Post #: 42

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 2:40:30 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

So Matrix is saying December release is still on

Yep, they are still set for a Decomber 2009 release.

Panzers has been smoking the fanboi pipe too long.

Apparantly your also either for or against the game, with no room in between.

_____________________________

(in reply to Sarge)

Post #: 43

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 9:50:15 AM

undercovergeek

Posts: 1526
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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

So Matrix is saying December release is still on

Yep, they are still set for a Decomber 2009 release.

youre a very funny man!!!!

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 44

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 11:38:24 AM

Widell

Posts: 913
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From: Trollh�ttan, Sweden
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Another thread gone OT

- Maybe the current discussion fits better over at WiF?

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Post #: 45

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 12:33:07 PM

undercovergeek

Posts: 1526
Joined: 11/21/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell

Another thread gone OT� - Maybe the current discussion fits better over at WiF?

its a thread about best grand strategy game, WiF has been suggested - this is off topic why????

or do various copies of this thread belong in the various forums of each game mentioned?

(in reply to Widell)

Post #: 46

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 1:35:57 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline

Veldor

Re playtesting of MWiF...don't worry. A range of people from total newbies to the super experienced are involved.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 47

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 3:19:57 PM

IanF1966

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Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline

I beg to differ in regards to WiF being 'the greatest WWII Grand Strategy Game'.

It can't be.

Before everyone has a knee-jerk reaction of denial, I played WiF as a tabletop game years ago and I loved it, however, in my opinion for any game to be described as 'the best WWII Grand Strategy Game ever' it needs to have every conceivable option and parameter for combat, politics, nation-building, economy, research and leadership that would appeal to every WW2 gamer and WiF does not.

WiF is a military combat game with politics, control of your nation and other 'Empire Building' features largely abstracted.

For the the greatest WWII Grand Strategy Game ever, see my above posting. Several games have elements of it.
Any developer who wants to make this game only needs to read and understand.

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 48

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 3:37:33 PM

PBI

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Joined: 2/10/2008
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Greatest ever...wow. I'd have to say A3R/RS. That answer is, of course, filtered through my own experience and tastes, though I had been eyeing WiF for years and have been dying to play WiE for years, too. The only thing that put me off WiF was the seemingly constant expansions and re-writes; I prefer my board games to be a bit more stable.

Now that computer WiF and computer WiE are nearing completion, though... I sense a bit of mana about to fall from heaven :)

_____________________________

If you can survive death, you can probably survive just about anything.

(in reply to IanF1966)

Post #: 49

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 5:21:58 PM

canton

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Anyone remembers "High command"? I really liked this game. Compared to other "Euro WW2 grand strategy titles" this is the one i spent the most time with.

(in reply to PBI)

Post #: 50

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 5:28:23 PM

Greybriar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: canton

Anyone remembers "High command"?

I played High Command for awhile. Good ol' Three-Sixty Pacific!

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Post #: 51

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 5:38:02 PM

sabre1

Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline

High Command was a great program, but if memory serves me, it had some issues. It gets a little vague as time marches on.

(in reply to Greybriar)

Post #: 52

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 6:54:51 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: I.C.

I beg to differ in regards to WiF being 'the greatest WWII Grand Strategy Game'.

It can't be.

Before everyone has a knee-jerk reaction of denial, I played WiF as a tabletop game years ago and I loved it, however, in my opinion for any game to be described as 'the best WWII Grand Strategy Game ever' it needs to have every conceivable option and parameter for combat, politics, nation-building, economy, research and leadership that would appeal to every WW2 gamer and WiF does not.

WiF is a military combat game with politics, control of your nation and other 'Empire Building' features largely abstracted.

For the the greatest WWII Grand Strategy Game ever, see my above posting. Several games have elements of it.
Any developer who wants to make this game only needs to read and understand.

Oh...there's still plenty of scope for more WW2 strategy games.

Perhaps by "ever", the original poster meant "yet". I think that's how most people have responded.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to IanF1966)

Post #: 53

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 7:31:36 PM

hjaco

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I think the post was "The best WW II grand strategy game" and the question to us what we considered the best game out there and more importantly why.

We seem to have come off the topic.....

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 54

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 8:17:18 PM

sabre1

Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

I think the post was "The best WW II grand strategy game" and the question to us what we considered the best game out there and more importantly why.

We seem to have come off the topic.....

Is it a requirement to cover all theatres of operation? That would really limit your choices. GGAWD, and SC2 are the only ones that come to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

(in reply to hjaco)

Post #: 55

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 8:53:14 PM

Widell

Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollh�ttan, Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell
Another thread gone OT - Maybe the current discussion fits better over at WiF?

its a thread about best grand strategy game, WiF has been suggested - this is off topic why????
or do various copies of this thread belong in the various forums of each game mentioned?

Well, the original question was:

quote:

ORIGINAL: joe_canadian
I currently play GGAWD, and am really happy with it. Just wondering what other peoples favourite WWII Grand Stratigy Game is. Give a reason Why too!

...but at least 50% of the replies are arguing about release dates and content of WiF. I am not questioning the proposal that WiF is the game. It's a 100% sure buy for me when it arrives. However, the long and continuously ongoing discussion about the release date is, IMHO, OT for this thread and belong in the WiF forum. The other games, and WiF, mentioned are definitely not OT, only the WiF release date part.

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Post #: 56

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 10:02:41 PM

HansBolter

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High Command was an enjoyable game and I played the hell out of.

Nielster,

I missed your response to one of my earlier posts, but I do agree with you in that once one, or a group really get "into" a particular game it is often difficult to get him/them to look at something different without some degree of prejudice.

My group played 3R into the ground over a 15 year period. We playtested rules changes for ATR for over 2.5 years alone, managing to get our names listed in the design credits. Eventually we DID tire of it and that's when we started getting into the likes of ETO/PTO, Advanced ETO, WWII, Krieg and Totler Krieg. The Rising Sun, Avalon Hill's Pacific version of 3R was released just about the time we drifted away from 3R. I see that Bruce Harper, the lead designer for ATR must have acquired the rights as he has since released a game called A World at War that I expect is the next generation of a merging of ATR and Rising Sun. Since I recently got back into team board mega gaming I have toyed with the idea of picking it.

I don't mean to disparage WIF in any way, it just happens that it never caught on with my local group.

We didn't play only grand strategic games, we played a lot of team mega operational games like Fire in the East/Scorched Earth, The Longest Day, Wahct (sp?) am Rhein......

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 8/7/2008 10:06:10 PM >

(in reply to Widell)

Post #: 57

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/7/2008 10:13:49 PM

Sarge

Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell

...but at least 50% of the replies are arguing about release dates and content of WiF. I am not questioning the proposal that WiF is the game. It's a 100% sure buy for me when it arrives. However, the long and continuously ongoing discussion about the release date is, IMHO, OT for this thread and belong in the WiF forum. The other games, and WiF, mentioned are definitely not OT, only the WiF release date part.

I have been visiting Matrix forums and others in the WG community for some time now, I don�t think I can recall any thread not going off topic thats the point of forums.

Lighten up a-little some of us have been arguing for years ��

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Post #: 58

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/8/2008 1:27:39 AM

Big B

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From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
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In all honesty - War in the Pacific - Admirals Edition.
Aint nothin' like it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joe_canadian

I currently play GGAWD, and am really happy with it. Just wondering what other peoples favourite WWII Grand Stratigy Game is. Give a reason Why too!

(in reply to joe_canadian)

Post #: 59

RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/8/2008 1:28:28 AM

panzers

Posts: 635
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Detroit Mi, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: I.C.

I beg to differ in regards to WiF being 'the greatest WWII Grand Strategy Game'.

It can't be.

Before everyone has a knee-jerk reaction of denial, I played WiF as a tabletop game years ago and I loved it, however, in my opinion for any game to be described as 'the best WWII Grand Strategy Game ever' it needs to have every conceivable option and parameter for combat, politics, nation-building, economy, research and leadership that would appeal to every WW2 gamer and WiF does not.

WiF is a military combat game with politics, control of your nation and other 'Empire Building' features largely abstracted.

For the the greatest WWII Grand Strategy Game ever, see my above posting. Several games have elements of it.
Any developer who wants to make this game only needs to read and understand.

I cannot say that I would disagree with your game, but based on what this thread is, where is your game you are talking about? It doesn't exist. In the meantime we have what we have. So rather than fantasize about a game that might not happen in our llifetime, tell us what your favorite WWII strategy game is, present tense.

(in reply to IanF1966)

Post #: 60