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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's World at War: A World Divided >> the AI

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the AI - 8/27/2008 2:06:05 AM

WanderingHead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bubble from this thread
If I play as Axis vs the AI and invade the Soviet Far East with Japan (usually in mid 1940), the AI never sends anything against me -- I just saunter up the Trans-Siberian railway all the way to the Urals without any opposition. I can usually get to the Urals (or one territory short of the Urals) before the Soviets DOW, providing Japan with tonnes of resources. And if I'm careful with how far I go, I can usually keep a minimal garrison at the end of my advance and bring the rest of the troops back to face China. Against the AI, at least, it seems to be a no-lose strategy.

Maybe a rationale is that the Soviets are taking a calculated risk in letting their Far East be captured because they "know" the Germans are coming and can't spare the troops...? They don't seem to need the resources from out there, at least not in the early stages, but it sure helps Japan.

I'm not sure if this is something you might want to address, e.g., in how the AI responds to such an attack, in strat move limits, or in WR responses. Or I can imagine that there are perfectly good reasons that you'd want to leave it as it is.

I took the liberty of copying this over to a new more appropriate thread.

The usual response to these comments about the AI applies: eventually you'll need a human opponent if you want a challenge.

Honestly, I view the AI as basically a training ground to get the concepts and mechanics down before playing humans.

It is true that I find the AI a fascinating algorithmic/programming challenge, but realistically I'll never do much of anything with it. Even were I really inclined, I doubt I could make it better and it would end up a waste of time if humans were still the only really challenging opponents.

Post #: 1

RE: the AI - 8/27/2008 3:23:59 AM

Lucky1

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One way to make games vs. the computer interesting is to play only one of the the alliance partners (i.e. either Japan or Germany or WA or Russia). Too, I impose little solo house rules (e.g., no strategic bombing of Chinese factories) or victory targets (have Japan invade mainland US before Germany falls). Or, if I want a REAL challenge, I allow the AI control production! I find that these measures help to make games vs AI more varied. This is especially the case if one cannot make the longer time commitment for PBEM.

(in reply to WanderingHead)

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RE: the AI - 8/27/2008 6:05:49 AM

Bubble

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Yeah, I'd pretty much come to this conclusion -- I suppose one benefit of a PBEM game is that it might somewhat limit the number of hours I can put in in one day.

(in reply to WanderingHead)

Post #: 3

RE: the AI - 8/29/2008 5:40:39 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

Or, if I want a REAL challenge, I allow the AI control production!

Yes, but... some of those AI priorities could be better. WanderingHead, short of trying to change internal AI algorithms/programming, could the AI research and production priorities get adjusted? I asked a while back about editing the wawgoldai text file and the answer was pretty much that the file is irrelevant in AWD because AI priorities are hardcoded. There's room for improvement here, and if you're able to change the hardcoded entries then that would be good.

(in reply to WanderingHead)

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RE: the AI - 9/5/2008 5:37:17 PM

abulbulian

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I notice when playing against the AI a few quirks that would be easy to fix in the next patch:

- AI(axis) does not seem to care about dealing with partisans never enough supplies it seems? Saw this with German AI always getting a partisan attacks from the French regions all the way to Russia. Not sure about how a AI Japan deals with conquered Chinese territories.

- AI(Germans) seem to continue a sub campaign even when the odds are so bad against, rather then building ground units since Russia is knocking on the door to Berlin.

- AI(Germans) seem to garrison coast even at the expense of losing Berlin and the game when strong Russian forces are adjacent to Berlin. Also, not enough focus on AA tech when getting bombing each and every turn from Britain. Seems AA would make more sense then fighters at some points when Germany is just holding on.

- AI allies seem to keep placement of TRs in areas (Africa was owned by axis) that they don't have any controled resources without any defense. Basically easy pickings for axis subs and air.

- AI allies don't seem to build up enough concentrated TR strength to make a landing on French coast or anywhere in Europe. They we sitting with about 40-70 ground units in London by between 1945 - 1947.

- AI allies bombing campaign never seem to target axis factories even though they had some extreme teched hvy bombers.

- AI allies had the a-bomb for at least two years and never used it? I was axis Japan and AI was playing Germany, so maybe they did against Germany? But I never saw it in a pop-up or log. Should it display somewhere to other players in alliance?

** Otherwise the AI in this wargame IMO is one of the BEST

I've seen ever! Curious to see how the developers do on the AI for WIF.

I grew up playing SSI (Gary G, Norm K) war games on the old Apple ][. My all time favorite game was War in Russia (80's), that game and ATR(Avalon Hill) got me into wargaming for the next 20 years and a great interest in war history. Probably in the 500's on books read about WWI and WWII. I'd put my knowledge of any particular aspect of either conflict up against anybody. I've even help write a few computer wargames and beta tested several war games including the 'A Wolrd at War' board game by GMT.

Kudos to all that were involved in the development of this game

. I look forward to even more cool stuff (AI enhancements for solo junkies like me) in future patches.

One note: Is it possible to go from a factory production screen to that region? Sometimes it would be useful to click on the region in the factory production screen to jump to the region to see where it is and what is currently there. My geography is very strong, but for others it might be more of a challenge.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 9/5/2008 5:43:45 PM >

(in reply to WanderingHead)

Post #: 5

RE: the AI - 9/6/2008 4:32:39 AM

WanderingHead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian
I notice when playing against the AI a few quirks that would be easy to fix in the next patch:
<snip>
** Otherwise the AI in this wargame IMO is one of the BEST I've seen ever! Curious to see how the developers do on the AI for WIF.
<snip>
I look forward to even more cool stuff (AI enhancements for solo junkies like me) in future patches.

Easy ... not really. It can be easy to describe things such that a human understands what to do, but adjusting the program to respond appropriately is a whole different question.

All kudos on AI go directly to Gary himself.

I sincerely doubt that the AI will change much in this game. The guys who make a living at this have moved on, leaving the volunteer (me) working for pure love of the game.

I've made tiny tweaks to the AI, which are related to very specific and targeted limitations. But yours are more nebulous, in programming terms. Were I "the AI guy" I might attack some of them, but I'm not.

The way these things work, psychologically, I'd kind of rather re-write the whole AI (an immensely fascinating exercise to me), and then tweak it forever, than to take someone else's AI (Gary's) and tweak it forever.

And frankly, from an overall family-work-game balancing view point, I am better better off just forgetting the AI. Though sincerely tempted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian
One note: Is it possible to go from a factory production screen to that region? Sometimes it would be useful to click on the region in the factory production screen to jump to the region to see where it is and what is currently there. My geography is very strong, but for others it might be more of a challenge.

Not possible. I am sure that anyone who plays a lot will start to figure it out.

(in reply to abulbulian)

Post #: 6

RE: the AI - 9/6/2008 10:38:10 AM

Tom Grosv

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian
** Otherwise the AI in this wargame IMO is one of the BEST I've seen ever!

Seconded. I've just returned to this game after a long absence and I'm enjoying it all over again. This time I'm determined to get round to playing other humans PBEM, which I never quite got round to last time, and am currently playing as Germany against the AI just to relearn the game. I'm not giving the AI any help (Total War, no attack help) and I've found myself in real trouble. I thought I'd invade Turkey just to experiment and was shocked when SU declared war on me in Spring 1941 - I realised afterwards that it must have got 8 WR points for the Turkey invasion. I wasn't too worried as I thought as soon as I start thrusting into SU with my panzers the AI would soon do something daft like pull everything back to Moscow - but no. Has the AI improved or something since I last played? I'm on the latest version I think - 1.02 from memory. Anyway, I took the Caucasus and Leningrad but in 1942 the AI seems to have got my three army groups successfully pinned down by equal forces. And then.............the WA ignored my threat to Cairo and successfully invaded North Italy. Arrggggg. Yes I know I certainly didn't do enough to protect Italy but this is the AI! Anyway good fun.

I've noticed that there seem to be a lot less posts on this forum than in the past. Is that because people have played it and moved on or just that most things have been discussed and sorted out? Do you think I'll successfully find PBEM players, especially those, like me, who have never played humans before? Must admit though - if the AI is kicking my backside like it is perhaps I wouldn't be a very good challenge.

(in reply to WanderingHead)

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RE: the AI - 9/6/2008 9:45:42 PM

WanderingHead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Grosv
I've noticed that there seem to be a lot less posts on this forum than in the past. Is that because people have played it and moved on or just that most things have been discussed and sorted out? Do you think I'll successfully find PBEM players, ...

I hope you can find players, just you being around helps everyone else!

I think that there is a lot of everything you've mentioned. Some people have moved on. Some have probably settled into a smaller circle they regularly play with and don't need to publicize on the forums. And there really is less to talk about.

Personally, after years of obsessive play and obsessive improvement/debugging, I'm trying to deprioritize this for a while and spend more time with family. But I love it, enjoy checking in to seeing what others are doing, and expect to get back into it (with less intensity) after a while.

I hope more people will post AARs. I still love following them.

(in reply to Tom Grosv)

Post #: 8