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RE: Coral Sea Preliminaries - 9/18/2008 10:23:53 PM

Kull

Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Regardless, the defenders of Moresby are in no position to affect the outcome of the Battle of Coral Sea...

Yum! (rubs hands together in anticipation)

Based on the already demonstrated absence of UberCAP, methinks more than a few of those Kates and Vals are gonna get through, even with the miniscule escort.

(in reply to TheElf)

Post #: 61

RE: Coral Sea Preliminaries - 9/18/2008 10:43:42 PM

PeteG662

Posts: 1263
Joined: 6/7/2004
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Definitely some vast improvements over WitP. I am glad to see leaders having an impact since that was my pet peeve in early WitP. Looking forward to seeing more and finally getting my hands on this puppy!

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Post #: 62

RE: Coral Sea Preliminaries - 9/19/2008 1:39:51 AM

Heeward

Posts: 343
Joined: 1/27/2003
From: Lacey Washington
Status: offline

"Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-21 Zero: 7 destroyed, 6 damaged ---- OUCH, that leaves a mark...No Zero Bonus here..."

I hope it would have almost / completely expired by this time.

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Post #: 63

RE: Coral Sea Preliminaries - 9/19/2008 9:36:05 AM

Akos Gergely

Posts: 733
Joined: 4/8/2004
From: Hungary, Bp.
Status: offline

I also hope the bomb hit rate on the ships will be more realistic as it was in WitP, so ships won't go dead after one hit/bomber accuracy increase manyfold after the first hit.

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Post #: 64

5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/19/2008 11:39:52 AM

TheElf

Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline

5 May 42, Coral Sea: CARDIV 5 Attacks

After full day of battling the elements and confirming the location of the US CV TF, CARDIV 5 is spoiling for a fight. They make final preparations through the night and then spring on the Lady Lex and Yorktown Early in the morning. In typical fashion the Combined arms training of Kido Butai is evident as a full strength Strike bears down on the two American Carriers.

For their part the Americans are well aware that they are being stalked. Throughout the day of the 4th snoopers were detected and in some cases shot down. The Dawn patrol catches an Alf shadowing the Lex and they swiftly dispatch it to the depths.

Aside from a light Escort the IJNAFs are in every way prepared to deal certain doom to an "unprepared" adversary.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Cooktown at 98,138

6 Wildcats are overhead the US carriers and they waste no time getting at the bogeys called out over the fighter net. The two CXAMs are in good order and even as the Airborne CAP wings it's way into action the Alert 5 fighters are called away and climb with all they have to join the defense. It's payback time. Ultimately the CAP will number as many as 24.

The Escort, small as it may be does well to fend off or otherwise occupy a far superior force of Wildcats, but these are not Army flyboys, this is the US Navy, and they aren't messing about. The Escort accounts for 2 F4Fs while the Wildcats claim 1 Zeke and damage 3 more and by the time the Escort loses cohesiveness 13 F4Fs are through the screen on their way to hitting the Strike Package of Kates and Vals. The Kates get the worst of it, 4 additional Fighters join the 13 that make it past the Escort. In the blur that follows nearly an entire squadron of torpedoe bombers are carved out of the sky and 4 others turn and run.

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-21 Zero x 8
B5N2 Kate x 42
D3A1 Val x 38

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 20

Air Combat runs into the AAA zone, and accounting for downed Jap planes becomes difficult. Many double claims are filed. One thing is not in doubt, the Torpedo Bombers got the worst of it, but their presence is felt as 6 torpedoes find their mark...

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-21 Zero: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 14 destroyed, 14 damaged
D3A1 Val: 4 destroyed, 16 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 2 destroyed, 6 damaged ---The CAP performed admirably. total of 24 participate in the defense.

Both Lex and Yorktown lose their CXAMs to Val delivered HE GP explosions in the overhead, and despite the use of GP bombs several deck penetrations are made. However the most telling damage is done by the Shokaku Kates. The Yorktown is not long for this world...

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 16, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CA Minneapolis

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EI-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
4 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EI-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EII-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
2 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EI-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
1 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EI-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
3 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EII-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
2 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EII-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EI-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EI-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
4 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EI-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
2 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EI-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EII-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
3 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EII-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EI-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
4 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EI-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EI-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EII-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
3 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EII-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

_____________________________

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

(in reply to Akos Gergely)

Post #: 65

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/19/2008 12:03:57 PM

castor troy

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Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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Wow, amazing! I see the Vals are now using GP bombs (while the Nells and Betties still use AP bombs, even on airfield attack

), and Lexington is hit by 16 bombs (probably 60kg bombs also). But why on earth can�t those 250kg GP bombs penetrate the wooden deck of this carrier?

I guess, the Vals are only dangerous to DDs and smaller crafts now? If they can�t harm a carrier, how should they deal damage to a CA? Is this the final version?

_____________________________

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Post #: 66

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/19/2008 12:10:09 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

5 May 42, Coral Sea: CARDIV 5 Attacks

After full day of battling the elements and confirming the location of the US CV TF, CARDIV 5 is spoiling for a fight. They make final preparations through the night and then spring on the Lady Lex and Yorktown Early in the morning. In typical fashion the Combined arms training of Kido Butai is evident as a full strength Strike bears down on the two American Carriers.

For their part the Americans are well aware that they are being stalked. Throughout the day of the 4th snoopers were detected and in some cases shot down. The Dawn patrol catches an Alf shadowing the Lex and they swiftly dispatch it to the depths.

Aside from a light Escort the IJNAFs are in every way prepared to deal certain doom to an "unprepared" adversary.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Cooktown at 98,138

6 Wildcats are overhead the US carriers and they waste no time getting at the bogeys called out over the fighter net. The two CXAMs are in good order and even as the Airborne CAP wings it's way into action the Alert 5 fighters are called away and climb with all they have to join the defense. It's payback time. Ultimately the CAP will number as many as 24.

The Escort, small as it may be does well to fend off or otherwise occupy a far superior force of Wildcats, but these are not Army flyboys, this is the US Navy, and they aren't messing about. The Escort accounts for 2 F4Fs while the Wildcats claim 1 Zeke and damage 3 more and by the time the Escort loses cohesiveness 13 F4Fs are through the screen on their way to hitting the Strike Package of Kates and Vals. The Kates get the worst of it, 4 additional Fighters join the 13 that make it past the Escort. In the blur that follows nearly an entire squadron of torpedoe bombers are carved out of the sky and 4 others turn and run.

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-21 Zero x 8
B5N2 Kate x 42
D3A1 Val x 38

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 20

Air Combat runs into the AAA zone, and accounting for downed Jap planes becomes difficult. Many double claims are filed. One thing is not in doubt, the Torpedo Bombers got the worst of it, but their presence is felt as 6 torpedoes find their mark...

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-21 Zero: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 14 destroyed, 14 damaged
D3A1 Val: 4 destroyed, 16 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 2 destroyed, 6 damaged ---The CAP performed admirably. total of 24 participate in the defense.

Both Lex and Yorktown lose their CXAMs to Val delivered HE GP explosions in the overhead, and despite the use of GP bombs several deck penetrations are made. However the most telling damage is done by the Shokaku Kates. The Yorktown is not long for this world...

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 16, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires
CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CA Minneapolis

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EI-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
4 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EI-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EII-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
2 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EI-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
1 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EI-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
3 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EII-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
2 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EII-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EI-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EI-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
4 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EI-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
2 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EI-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EII-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
3 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EII-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EI-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
4 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EI-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EI-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
4 x D3A1 Val bombing from 2000 feet (EII-2 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
3 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet (EII-3 Daitai / None)
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

You sir are in the wrong line of work,(to our advantage.)
You have a nice literary style, in the vein of Ernest K Gann?

_____________________________

(in reply to TheElf)

Post #: 67

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/19/2008 12:14:30 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Wow, amazing! I see the Vals are now using GP bombs (while the Nells and Betties still use AP bombs, even on airfield attack ), and Lexington is hit by 16 bombs (probably 60kg bombs also). But why on earth can�t those 250kg GP bombs penetrate the wooden deck of this carrier?

I guess, the Vals are only dangerous to DDs and smaller crafts now? If they can�t harm a carrier, how should they deal damage to a CA? Is this the final version?

Ehm, if you actually took the time to read TheElf's text, he says that despite the use of GP bombs several deck penetrations were made.

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 68

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/19/2008 12:17:05 PM

String

Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Wow, amazing! I see the Vals are now using GP bombs (while the Nells and Betties still use AP bombs, even on airfield attack ), and Lexington is hit by 16 bombs (probably 60kg bombs also). But why on earth can�t those 250kg GP bombs penetrate the wooden deck of this carrier?

I guess, the Vals are only dangerous to DDs and smaller crafts now? If they can�t harm a carrier, how should they deal damage to a CA? Is this the final version?

I'm guessing their fusing just meant that they detonated before penetration.

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 69

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/19/2008 12:27:37 PM

m10bob

Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

"but these are not Army flyboys, this is the US Navy, and they aren't messing about."

Hey airedale...your brown shoes are showing......

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Post #: 70

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/19/2008 2:07:20 PM

Akos Gergely

Posts: 733
Joined: 4/8/2004
From: Hungary, Bp.
Status: offline

Yeah but still 16 bomb hits and 4 torps on Yorktown seems to be excessive......(Yorktown was a relatively small and manuverable ship compared to Lex which was the worst in the USN until Saratoga's big rebuild...).

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Post #: 71

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/19/2008 7:59:31 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline

Elf, in the early combat rounds, the Japanese Bombers pretty much failed to hit anything at PM. I think I counted 3 bomb hits in the entire sequence. Will this be a pretty typical AE result, or were there extenuating circumstances that weren't obvious to us?

I can see if bomb accuracy was toned down a bit, but that's a very low hit rate

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Post #: 72

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/19/2008 8:23:28 PM

Terminus

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From: Denmark
Status: offline

Remember that Miss Betty carries a very teeny-tiny bombload.

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 73

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/19/2008 11:52:19 PM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: csatahajos

Yeah but still 16 bomb hits and 4 torps on Yorktown seems to be excessive......(Yorktown was a relatively small and manuverable ship compared to Lex which was the worst in the USN until Saratoga's big rebuild...).

Agreed, the problem is flak. It's still far too ineffective, it should shred 30% - 60% of attacking airframes and damage most of the rest, more should be outright kills later in the war.

I think I read that Yorktown's flak downed about 70% of the attacking planes at Midway.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 9/19/2008 11:59:03 PM >

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Post #: 74

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 12:07:26 AM

TheElf

Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Wow, amazing! I see the Vals are now using GP bombs (while the Nells and Betties still use AP bombs, even on airfield attack ), and Lexington is hit by 16 bombs (probably 60kg bombs also). But why on earth can�t those 250kg GP bombs penetrate the wooden deck of this carrier?

I guess, the Vals are only dangerous to DDs and smaller crafts now? If they can�t harm a carrier, how should they deal damage to a CA? Is this the final version?

It was standard practice for every third Val in a shotai to be armed with GP HE. For AAA suppression and deck crew attrition.

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IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

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Post #: 75

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 12:08:59 AM

John 3rd

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From: La Salle, Colorado
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Worked fairly well too...

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Post #: 76

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 12:25:45 AM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: csatahajos

Yeah but still 16 bomb hits and 4 torps on Yorktown seems to be excessive......(Yorktown was a relatively small and manuverable ship compared to Lex which was the worst in the USN until Saratoga's big rebuild...).

Agreed, the problem is flak. It's still far too ineffective, it should shred 30% - 60% of attacking airframes and damage most of the rest, more should be outright kills later in the war.

I think I read that Yorktown's flak downed about 70% of the attacking planes at Midway.

Jim

I'm sorry, 30-60%? Did they have HAWK missiles?

You're going to have to come up with some cast iron proof for such a ridiculous statement.

25 Japanese aircraft were shot down or critically damaged while attacking Yorktown. 8 of them were confirmed a2a, the rest are of uncertain provenance, but that's irrelevant. 25 aircraft shot down in a single incident are completely insignificant when compared to the entire war.

If we based USN CAP on the Turkey Shoot, people would never stop whining.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 9/20/2008 12:30:51 AM >

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Post #: 77

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 2:01:55 AM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Wow, amazing! I see the Vals are now using GP bombs (while the Nells and Betties still use AP bombs, even on airfield attack ), and Lexington is hit by 16 bombs (probably 60kg bombs also). But why on earth can�t those 250kg GP bombs penetrate the wooden deck of this carrier?

I guess, the Vals are only dangerous to DDs and smaller crafts now? If they can�t harm a carrier, how should they deal damage to a CA? Is this the final version?

It was standard practice for every third Val in a shotai to be armed with GP HE. For AAA suppression and deck crew attrition.

but what about the other 66.67% ?

This is not a rant or some sort of misunderstood critism, I�m just asking.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 9/20/2008 2:02:41 AM >

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Post #: 78

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 2:25:38 AM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
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From: Salida, CA.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
I'm sorry, 30-60%? Did they have HAWK missiles?

You're going to have to come up with some cast iron proof for such a ridiculous statement.

Sigh... OK, let�s look at a few of the strikes from the Battle of Santa Cruz.

In the first strike on the Hornet, 25 of the 20 Kates and 16 Vals that attacked Hornet were lost. Several (probably 3 or 4) of the Vals were downed by Wildcats, but most were flak losses.

The first strike on the Enterprise saw 19 Vals attack. 2 were downed by Wildcats and 10 by Flak. A few minutes later 16 Kates attacked and 3 were shot down by Wildcats. 6 were destroyed by flak.

The next Enterprise strike saw 17 Vals attack, 11 of them were lost, all to flak.

Here�s what the air staff officer on the Junyo wrote about the survivors as they returned to his vessel:

�We searched the sky with apprehension. There were only a few planes in the air in comparison with the numbers launched several hours before... The planes lurched and staggered onto the deck, every single fighter and bomber bullet holed... As the pilots climbed wearily from their cramped cockpits, they told of unbelievable opposition, of skies choked with antiaircraft shell bursts and tracers.�

So 100% of the survivors were damaged, probably 99% of them due to flak.

Jim

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Post #: 79

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 2:32:58 AM

Iridium

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From: Jersey
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Is it me or is taking a few actual battle results and declaring them the norm been done and found to be rather inaccurate?

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Post #: 80

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 2:37:27 AM

Jim D Burns

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From: Salida, CA.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iridium

Is it me or is taking a few actual battle results and declaring them the norm been done and found to be rather inaccurate?

LOL that's why I chose an early battle. Flak losses are far worse later in the war.

Jim

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Post #: 81

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 2:39:30 AM

Iridium

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From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iridium

Is it me or is taking a few actual battle results and declaring them the norm been done and found to be rather inaccurate?

LOL that's why I chose an early battle. Flak losses are far worse later in the war.

Jim

I just meant in general. There has got to be a better way.

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Yamato, IMO the best looking Battleship.

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Post #: 82

RE: 4 May 42: A Day of Heavy Action - 9/20/2008 4:07:15 AM

Flying Tiger

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From: ummmm... i HATE that question!
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quote:

-------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: This is meant to give everyone a bit on insight. A preview, if you will, of what is going on behind the curtain. WE ARE IN BETA. Whatever dynamics, trends, paradigms you detect or disagree with are subject to change. Let's not ruin this for everyone. This is not intended to foster debate or support anyone's agenda. Mostly just enjoy and take the time to learn about what is in store with AE.
-------------------------------------------

Poor old Elf. Did his best to avoid us all getting into a full blown debate. But alas....we are gamers. We whinge!

(in reply to Akos Gergely)

Post #: 83

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 4:14:13 AM

Gunner98

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From: The Great White North!
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When you look at the results:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-21 Zero x 8
B5N2 Kate x 42
D3A1 Val x 38

Total: 88 A/C

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-21 Zero: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 14 destroyed, 14 damaged
D3A1 Val: 4 destroyed, 16 damaged

Totoal destroyed: 19 (22%), Total damaged: 33 (38%). Final tally: 52 or 60%

Your not too far off the speculative estimate

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Post #: 84

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 4:27:41 AM

Jim D Burns

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From: Salida, CA.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98
Your not too far off the speculative estimate

I said 30% - 60% of bombers attacking the targets get destroyed by flak, the rest (or most of the rest) damaged. Counting those shot down by CAP isn't part of those percentages. Of the 63 bombers that attacked targets, only 3 were flak losses according to his screenshot comments. That's why we see so many bomb hits.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 9/20/2008 4:33:34 AM >

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Post #: 85

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 4:34:25 AM

witpqs

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AND - at Santa Cruz there were additional AA upgrades in place plus the presence of a whopping big (in AA terms) US fast battleship.

I'm feeling pretty good about the results Elf is showing us here.

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Post #: 86

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 4:57:33 AM

Jim D Burns

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From: Salida, CA.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

AND - at Santa Cruz there were additional AA upgrades in place plus the presence of a whopping big (in AA terms) US fast battleship.

I'm feeling pretty good about the results Elf is showing us here.

OK let�s look at the Battle of the Coral Sea.

I don�t know the specifics as to strike packages, but I do know that 69 Japanese planes (includes the fighters I think) attacked and 27 were lost. Most of these were probably bombers, so an educated guess would be well above 50% destroyed if the fighters are not counted.

I don�t think any air to air CAP intercepts were made because the few fighters in the air were vectored to the wrong altitude and were too close to their ships to be of much use due to being low on fuel. Many were landing or already landing and being refueled when the attack occurred, so we can assume most of the 27 were flak losses, if not all of them.

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/st/~michaelm/coral1.what.html

Jim

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Post #: 87

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 5:33:56 AM

Kull

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If we're going to compare Elf's results to history, why the reliance on figures from Midway and Santa Cruz? It would seem the proper comparison would be to Coral Sea. One web site indicates the Japanese lost 43 planes on May 8th, but doesn't distinguish which were lost to CAP, AAA, damage aboard Shokaku, ops losses, etc. Hopefully somebody can pull up something more useful.

I would agree that the Flak losses do seem a lot lighter than one would expect, but keep in mind that we're looking at a sample size of one. It seems reasonable to expect that the AE team has been studying flak results as part of their beta testing.

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Post #: 88

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 5:46:32 AM

Kull

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
I don�t know the specifics as to strike packages, but I do know that 69 Japanese planes (includes the fighters I think) attacked and 27 were lost. Most of these were probably bombers, so an educated guess would be well above 50% destroyed if the fighters are not counted.

I don�t think any air to air CAP intercepts were made because the few fighters in the air were vectored to the wrong altitude and were too close to their ships to be of much use due to being low on fuel. Many were landing or already landing and being refueled when the attack occurred, so we can assume most of the 27 were flak losses, if not all of them.

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/st/~michaelm/coral1.what.html

Jim

The website below has better information on the nature of the Japanese strike, but unfortunately does not provide numbers. In this view CAP was an active factor, and appears to account for many of the Japanese a/c loses:

http://www.bluejacket.com/ww2_05-04-42_coral-sea.html

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Post #: 89

RE: 5 May 42, Coral Sea - 9/20/2008 6:03:33 AM

Jim D Burns

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Ok this site gives CAP details:

23 Dauntless dive bombers shot down 4 torpedo-planes (the rest of the CAP was out of position), so 23 of the 27 destroyed are from flak. Though it doesn't say how many of the 69 are zeroes.

http://www.microworks.net/PACIFIC/battles/coral_sea.htm

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 9/20/2008 6:04:01 AM >

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