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RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984)

 
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RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 1:21:19 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		 
I'll humor myself just one more time in this thread. I was vague about my issues because I don't need your validation. I'll make that clear. I don't know where you get the $50  figure you keep pulling out of thin air. I have a number of Matrix games all but one I paid more than $50 despite a few of them serving no more purpose than a coaster. As many can attest it's not a good feeling to pay for a game, play it a few times and decide it's not your cup of tea.  Nor do I have an expensive PC you keep speaking about. I don't have much to spend but will buy a game upon release if I think it's going to be good like I did with Carriers At War and will with others I am anticipating. As a consumer I have a right to air my feelings if I don't like prices .  I also have the right to offer rebutal to someone walking lockstep with Matrix in an effort to raise  already high prices on the consumer by telling people how cheap they are.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 9/26/2008 1:27:32 PM >

_____________________________

"There’s no such thing as a bitter person who keeps the bitterness to himself.” ~ Erwin Lutzer

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 61
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 1:37:04 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
 I also have the right to offer rebutal to someone walking lockstep with Matrix in an effort to raise  already high prices on the consumer by telling people how cheap they are.


Unfortunately for you, reality has a habit of not caring about personal agendas : wargames *have* halved in price in the last 25 year. It's too bad I had to be the bringer of that harsh reality message and that you've now resorted to shooting at the messenger because you don't like the message.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 62
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 1:45:48 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
I don't have much to spend but will buy a game upon release if I think it's going to be good like I did with Carriers At War and will with others I am anticipating.

You're just asking for trouble when you do that, particularly if you're strapped for money. Visit the game's associated forum(s) and see what gamers are saying about it. If you're still interested, then consider the purchase.


quote:

As a consumer I have a right to air my feelings if I don't like prices .

Better yet, contact the publisher/distributor and let 'em have it. At some point, however, it'd lend credibility to your public lobbying for lower prices were you to acknowledge that entertainment is expensive and each of us picks his poison, as it were. If circumstances have forced you into a subsistence life style, that's certainly regrettable. But it doesn't alter the economic reality that producing entertainment isn't getting cheaper, not one iota. In this instance, if there's no profit for the developer and the publisher, there'll be no product.

quote:

I also have the right to offer rebutal to someone walking goosestep with Matrix in an effort to raise  already high prices on the consumer by telling people how cheap they are.

Now, I want to request a favor from you. There's this dude named Erik that works for Matrix. PLEASE, email him and tell him that I'm "walking goosestep with Matrix." I'm certain that he'll find the revelation to be fabulously entertaining.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 63
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 1:54:30 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		Discounting bargain bins, Wargames have not halved in price. Speaking of personal agendas, I'm quite positive you have one in mind.

Uhh Prince I thought my post was clear I was having ongoing rebuttal with Eddy but feel free.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 9/26/2008 1:59:16 PM >

_____________________________

"There’s no such thing as a bitter person who keeps the bitterness to himself.” ~ Erwin Lutzer

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 64
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 2:06:26 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
Discounting bargain bins, Wargames have not halved in price. Speaking of personal agendas, I'm quite positive you have one in mind.


Average wargame price in 1984 : $50
Average wargame price today : $50

Consumer Price Index - with 1984 being 100 gives 219 for August 2008

http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Consumer_Price_Index/HistoricalCPI.aspx

So you're absolutely and totally right : wargames have not halved in price. They've actually more than halved as $50 (1984) == $109.50 (today) meaning that the price has come down by 55%

I'm willing to go over the math point by point if it's all not too clear to you, just let me know.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx


(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 65
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 2:15:33 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
Uhh Prince I thought my post was clear I was having ongoing rebuttal with Eddy but feel free.

From your comments, a reasonable person could conclude you're less interested in the substance of the matter than you are in arguing with Eddy. If that's not the case, you might want to consider a different approach in addressing your audience, not Eddy or myself, necessarily, but the whole crew.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 66
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 2:31:07 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
Uhh Prince I thought my post was clear I was having ongoing rebuttal with Eddy but feel free.

From your comments, a reasonable person could conclude you're less interested in the substance of the matter than you are in arguing with Eddy.


I kinda brought that on myself because I'm the messenger of "Bad News"

Next he'll argue prices from 1984 with me and then I'll have to start digging in my old AH catalogues and wargame magazines.

Googled a bit and here are some prices from January 1994

Carrier Strike South Pacific: $70
Clash of Steel $70
Gary Grigsby's Pacific War: $80
Gary Grigsby's War in Russia : $80
The Great War (I guess History Line) $70
Great Naval Battles $70

Prices from 1986 from the #1 wargame publisher of that era - SSI

Cheapest game : RDF 1985 : $35
Most expensive game : War in Russia : $80

But here's the kicker : 90% of their games were either $40 or $60 so I think that this provides enough data for my generalisation that the average wargame price back in 1984 was $50, just like it is today.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 67
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 2:50:53 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		For a bit of relief...how about some more of my hot friends?

Cheers, Neilster










Attachment (3)

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 68
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 2:57:51 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
For a bit of relief...how about some more of my hot friends?


I would start packing, but my wife won't let me

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

P.S. How's the weather there in general - giving the crappy weather over here, that might be a convincing argument

<edit>
he, I just found out the forum software doesn't let me type ****ty, but it accepts crappy - I wonder if it accepts ****-ty or ****t-y or Shi-tty. Bingo
</edit>





< Message edited by sterckxe -- 9/26/2008 2:59:56 PM >

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 69
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 3:16:06 PM   
Toby42


Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline 		Neilster, I'm with you. All of this conversation is giving me a "Headache"!!!


_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 70
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 3:19:30 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
Uhh Prince I thought my post was clear I was having ongoing rebuttal with Eddy but feel free.

From your comments, a reasonable person could conclude you're less interested in the substance of the matter than you are in arguing with Eddy. If that's not the case, you might want to consider a different approach in addressing your audience, not Eddy or myself, necessarily, but the whole crew.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)



Sure

_____________________________

"There’s no such thing as a bitter person who keeps the bitterness to himself.” ~ Erwin Lutzer

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 71
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 3:31:13 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
Discounting bargain bins, Wargames have not halved in price. Speaking of personal agendas, I'm quite positive you have one in mind.


Average wargame price in 1984 : $50
Average wargame price today : $50

Consumer Price Index - with 1984 being 100 gives 219 for August 2008

http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Consumer_Price_Index/HistoricalCPI.aspx

So you're absolutely and totally right : wargames have not halved in price. They've actually more than halved as $50 (1984) == $109.50 (today) meaning that the price has come down by 55%

I'm willing to go over the math point by point if it's all not too clear to you, just let me know.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx





If you said wargames haven't risen across the board along with inflation I'd agree with you as I 've already alluded to in this thread. Prices haven't gone up for reasons I've stated along with many others on this forum. To say or write prices have been slashed, cut, whatever in half is a nothing more than a bold faced lie



< Message edited by SuluSea -- 9/26/2008 3:32:35 PM >

_____________________________

"There’s no such thing as a bitter person who keeps the bitterness to himself.” ~ Erwin Lutzer

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 72
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 3:55:48 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
For a bit of relief...how about some more of my hot friends?


I would start packing, but my wife won't let me

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

P.S. How's the weather there in general - giving the crappy weather over here, that might be a convincing argument

<edit>
he, I just found out the forum software doesn't let me type ****ty, but it accepts crappy - I wonder if it accepts ****-ty or ****t-y or Shi-tty. Bingo
</edit>





Not bad. It was 23 degrees (Celsius) and glorious yesterday but a cold front came through and it was cool with showers today. Here at the bottom of the Great South Land we have weather that would be similar to Northern Italy, although we only get 616.2mm (24.26 inches) of precipitation annually. It snows about once a year and we get some hot days in Summer (35+) but mostly the temperatures year round are moderated by the Southern Ocean.

In contrast, the most Northerly parts of Australia only have a wet and dry season. The temperature in the middle of Winter in Darwin is typically 31 degrees and there are many parts of the continent that are hitting 35 now. Avoid Marble Bar in Western Australia unless you like it hot. It was once above 100F (37.8C) for 160 days in a row there.

Cheers, Neilster





Attachment (1)

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 73
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 4:04:39 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
Here at the bottom of the Great South Land we have weather that would be similar to Northern Italy,


Sold

I have an Aussie coming over and stay at my place in 2 weeks time. I warned him about weather conditions over here which for October statistically are an average of 15° celsius and 14 days in which it rains over a millimeter. For him this means taking along his winter gear, while I'm still wearing my "summer" outfit because it gets worse later in the year.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx


(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 74
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 4:06:05 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

For a bit of relief...how about some more of my hot friends?

Cheers, Neilster






Is sunbathing dangerous down there, with the ozone depletion?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 75
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 4:11:55 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
To say or write prices have been slashed, cut, whatever in half is a nothing more than a bold faced lie


I'm sorry to hear that you are a bit math challenged. But I'm sure there are evening classes in your area, so not everything is lost.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 76
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 4:13:06 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

For a bit of relief...how about some more of my hot friends?

Cheers, Neilster






Is sunbathing dangerous down there, with the ozone depletion?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


Ozone depletion is getting better and almost everyone here is very conscious of the sun now. There are endless education campaigns and although a lot of people like to be tanned, most are pretty sensible. Hence Amy's lovely hat.

What do you mean you hadn't noticed the hat?

Cheers, Neilster


< Message edited by Neilster -- 9/26/2008 4:14:26 PM >

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 77
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 4:19:38 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

Hence Amy's lovely hat.

What do you mean you hadn't noticed the hat?


How did you kn ... nevermind

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 78
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 5:10:18 PM   
E

 

Posts: 1247
Joined: 9/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

So it's not "tough, get more money" - it's "tough, the price is set correctly"


"Tough, the price is set correctly" is still just saying "tough, get more money."

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 79
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 5:19:24 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

Hence Amy's lovely hat.

What do you mean you hadn't noticed the hat?


How did you kn ... nevermind

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx


She has a a beautiful rack...where she keeps that hat

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 80
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 5:47:58 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
She has a a beautiful rack...where she keeps that hat


Can't complain either ... about *my* wife I mean - here's a picture of my two darlings :




What ? What did you expect the "two darlings" to be ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Attachment (1)

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 81
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 6:37:10 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

She has a a beautiful rack...where she keeps that hat

Cheers, Neilster



Honestly, I think that some of us make too big a fuss over a woman's parts. What I noticed about Amy was her beautiful complexion and the expression on her face, her attitude. It's odd how a posture can convey as much as a form in a woman, a hyper-sensuality that I don't sense in men. I'm not completely sure how the other 10% get along without them. ;)

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 82
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 6:43:34 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
Honestly, I think that some of us make too big a fuss over a woman's parts.


It's all tongue-in-cheek man - and to lighten up the seriousness of this thread. My wife actually read all of this as she saw me hunting through our last batch of holiday pics and asked what was going on. She knows I'm not a macho nitwit so she had to laugh at the intended double-entendres.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 83
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 6:53:00 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

She has a a beautiful rack...where she keeps that hat

Cheers, Neilster



Honestly, I think that some of us make too big a fuss over a woman's parts. What I noticed about Amy was her beautiful complexion and the expression on her face, her attitude. It's odd how a posture can convey as much as a form in a woman, a hyper-sensuality that I don't sense in men. I'm not completely sure how the other 10% get along without them. ;)

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


Actually you're right. Amy is kind, sassy and very intelligent. They are the characteristics that I really like about her. That pose does say quite a lot about her. An unassuming confidence with a lovely personality just under the surface. She is extremely attractive but unlike a lot of girls like that (and trust me, I know quite a few) it hasn't gone to her head. She is a doll.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 84
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/26/2008 7:32:58 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

It's all tongue-in-cheek man - and to lighten up the seriousness of this thread.



Yeah, exchanging thoughts in a thread such as this can be sorta like trying to talk someone out of shooting himself:

"Put the keyboard down, sir, and step away from the computer."

You have to be dumb enough to care, but smart enough not to let him kill you, too.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


< Message edited by Prince of Eckmühl -- 9/27/2008 5:37:03 AM >

_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 85
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/27/2008 6:07:46 AM   
Zap


Posts: 3639
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From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

If an individual can't afford to go the cinema, eat fast-food, watch cable-TV, talk on a cell-phone or surf the Internet from home, he or she is perhaps unable to pay $50 for a game. If the individual can do some or all of those things, the purchase of a game that might provide hundreds of hours of entertainment would appear to be discretionary. Just about all of us have limits on what we can and can't afford, so we prioritize. If there's stuff in your life that's more important than wargaming, GO FOR  IT. Free people that live within their means are still allowed to make decisions like that, least ways until government decides otherwise.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)




I made an observation in a post, once, that going out to eat cost as much as a game. And was told that one should never make that comparison. That is, between eating out and buying a war game. Here, you make the comparison. Why does it sound more credible when you make reference to it?
I just don't get no respect as Rodney dangerfield used to say

< Message edited by Zap -- 9/27/2008 6:09:02 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 86
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/27/2008 3:16:56 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
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From: ask doggie
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
but I might quote Major H, developer of TacOps, once again : "If you can't afford the occasional $50 to buy yourself a new wargame, get yourself another hobby".



Accually he sells his game for half that $25


It was a response by the Major to another "games are sooooo expensive" whiner, back when his game was $40-50 or such.


So what’s his position today ?

Since sales dropped off I’ll take the whiner‘s $25 ,your not making any sense ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Obviously that sales pitch didn’t pan out for Major H as intended ,


It worked perfectly - last I heard his wargame development income provides him with enough extra money to let him do the things he enjoys most. See the pattern here ? work -> income -> able to afford the little extras.


Why do you presume you know what my work ethic is and what I can and can not afford ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
kind of like you representing Matrix price policy with your condescending attitude.


I couldn't care less about their price policy - I just jumped into this thread because people wanted to know how much wargames today costed compared to 25 years ago, taking into account inflation.


Actually you jumped in with your delusional take on how inflation applies across the board to all product pricing (see below), and anyone in dispute is an whiner and just needs to work harder .

wrong !

Here is a-little secret us “employers” live by

supply n’ demand, technical advancement ,overhead, industry competition are just a few of the many factors affecting price at the check out we the “employers” live by.

You couldn’t run an self serve fruit stand with your business philosophy


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

$120

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

That's why I can't understand people whining about how expensive games have gotten. They haven't. They've actually halved in price since I first started wargaming.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




< Message edited by Sarge -- 9/27/2008 3:18:35 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 87
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/27/2008 4:24:36 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

You couldn’t run an self serve fruit stand with your business philosophy


Speaking of fruit, is anyone else shocked at how expensive the stuff has become?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)


_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 88
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/27/2008 4:45:34 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		Deleted. Most probably too dodgy. Hilarious but what can one do? Battle on until someone discovers one's genius? Dunno but I'll give it a go .

Cheers, Neilster.


< Message edited by Neilster -- 9/27/2008 5:24:42 PM >

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 89
RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI... - 9/29/2008 6:41:40 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Actually you jumped in with your delusional take on how inflation applies across the board to all product pricing (see below), and anyone in dispute is an whiner and just needs to work harder .

wrong !

Here is a-little secret us “employers” live by

supply n’ demand, technical advancement ,overhead, industry competition are just a few of the many factors affecting price at the check out we the “employers” live by.

You couldn’t run an self serve fruit stand with your business philosophy



Hmmm - lemme see - the price of the apples has gone up 219% since 1984 and the cost of labour has gone up by 219% since 1984 (CPI averages)

So I could set my selling price at 219% of what it was in 1984 *or* just follow the advice of business guru Sarge in here and keep selling them at the 1984 price.

I'm sorry, but taking business advice from someone unclear on concepts like inflation and CPI seems a bit dodgy to me.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 90
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