Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (Full Version)

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BoredStiff -> Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/23/2008 2:53:20 AM)

CARRIER FORCE: THE FOG OF WAR AT ITS FOGGIEST
by Tom Cheche

[image]http://i37.tinypic.com/fkqqhg.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i35.tinypic.com/10sangg.jpg[/image]

The emergence of the computer wargame has provided the serious wargamer with three distinct advantages over board games. The computer can attend to the minute bookkeeping details that slow down the play of a board wargame. The computer can provide an opponent of varying levels of competence. And the computer can create and maintain that most difficult element to simulate.. the "fog of war."

Military Commanders have always been forced to make decisions based on information that was, to one degree or another, incomplete or inaccurate. The problem in board wargaming has always been finding a realistic method of parcelling out that information in such a way that the opponents experienced a "fog of war" as close as possible to the actual situation. The computer wargame dispenses that information in the most realistic and playable method available.

Prior to the emergence of the computer wargame, it was this lack of a true "fog of war" that detracted from the playing of board simulations that dealt with aircraft carrier warfare during WWII. One of the most fascinating chapters in military history, the carrier battles of 1942 lost much of their tension when bogged down by the often tedious procedure of airborne search. Search procedures had to be conducted one air group at a time, one hex at a time with the success or failure of the search in each hex being determined by the weather conditions and other factors. It was, at best, a chore.

But, in the quest for a detailed board simulation, the methodical search procedure had to occur. Hard-core garners accepted the monotonous searches as part of the price they paid for realism, all the while revealing to their opponent where they were conducting searches by calling out the hex coordinates; a most unrealistic situation.

In all of the board game treatments of aircraft carrier operations, from MIDWAY, to FAST CARRIERS, INDIAN OCEAN ADVENTURE, AND FLATTOP the impression left was that while the feel was close, it missed the mark. There was always a sense, after playing, of not quite experiencing the true tensions, the true sensations, the taste of what it was really like in carriers during the uncertain days of 1942.

With the release of CARRIER FORCE (CF) by Gary Grigsby, Strategic Simulations, Inc., takes a giant step towards closing the gap between reality and simulation. Author Gary Grigsby has described CF as being "about as foggy as a game can get," and that is a fair assessment. With only a few exceptions, players know only what their search has revealed, and even then the search information is not always to be believed.

CF is an operational level treatment of the four great carrier battles of 1942 in the Pacific. Coral Sea, Eastern Solomons, and Santa Cruz are contested on a scrolling, high resolution map of the South Pacific area including the Solomon Islands, and portions of New Guinea and northeastern Australia. The map for the Midway scenario is separate and relatively featureless, representing only the Midway atoll.

Like all SSI products, CF can be played between human opponents or the computer can provide a very competent opponent as commander of the Japanese forces. There are multiple levels of difficulty, and there are provisions for historic and random starting locations. During each turn (one hour game time) players must maneuver task forces, launch land based and carrier based searches, form attack and patrol missions, ready aircraft, launch and recover aircraft, move air groups and conduct air searches, and resolve combat.

In all of the scenarios the initial turns will find the players creating air groups in order to get search planes up as soon as possible. Land bases can fly off longlegged search craft that can remain aloft all day long. All other aircraft would do well to be back on the ground by nightfall, since operational accidents increase at night.

Depending on aircraft type, planes can travel a certain number of hexes each hour (hexes are 50 miles wide). As each plane or group of planes passes through a hex, search occurs. The quality of that search can be improved by "spending" more of that hour's movement points searching the same hex more intensively. For example, an aircraft capable of traveling 150 miles in one hour could:
-- travel the full 150 miles, expending one movement point in each of the three hexes in the course of a cursory search.
-- spend two of the three available movement points in hex, then after locating nothing, move on to another hex and spend the last point searching in the new hex.
-- spend all three points searching in the same hex.

Once air groups are created, all the player must do is decide the direction in which the group will fly. As each movement point is expended the computer conducts searches, and if something is spotted the player receives a report of the sighting and a symbol is displayed on the map noting the location of an enemy task force.

This simple act of computer-mediated search is the glue that holds CF together. It is swift and exciting, and it can be frustrating. Search planes are unarmed, and if they are jumped by CAP they always get shot down. And it is here that one flaw surfaces.

Whenever air combat of any kind takes place, the location of that combat is shown on the map. Whenever a search plane is jumped by CAP the searching player is notified that the plane has been shot down, and the hex in which it happened is indicated on the map. Common sense tells you that if a search plane is jumped by CAP over a certain hex, then there must be something of consequence steaming along on the surface in that hex. Essentially, what this means is that a search plane that is jumped by CAP will always manage to get off a radio message of the sighting and location before he goes down.

Picture yourself sitting in the Combat Information Center aboard the Lexington at Coral Sea, watching air groups inching across a map towards the marker that denotes the last known position of a Japanese task force.

[image]http://i37.tinypic.com/2lctli8.jpg[/image]

Whether or not the enemy TF has been spotted by a search plane during the hour, attacking air groups, logically enough, must also spot the target TF on their own. And the farther from home an attacker flies, the greater the chance that he will fail to spot the enemy. Weather conditions can also prevent spotting a target.

So there you sit, having shot your bolt, waiting for the Lexington's SBD Dauntless dive bombers, now approaching the end of their tether, to arrive over the target. On the map the air group marker moves onto the target hex, eclipsing the symbol denoting a Japanese task force. The SBDs have less than an hour before they must turn around, otherwise they will fail to make it back to their carriers.

The SBDs are directly over the IJN task force, but in the deteriorating weather they cannot spot their target. One movement point is used. Only one more remains.

You order the bombers to continue the search and they do, with still no ships spotted. The SBDs have failed to find the target. Faced with the prospect of losing the entire squadron to ditching, you reluctantly steer the bombers back towards the Lexington, and steer a course for "point option" where you will retrieve your aircraft.

There is another side to that coin, though. On more than one occasion my radar has detected an incoming raid, my CAP has intercepted incoming attackers, that, and the weather meant that the Japanese were unable to spot and attack my ships. The weather is impartial.

Task force movement is accomplished in an effective manner. Each hour, task forces accumulate movement points, which are then expended through such things as changes in headings, and air operations. When a task force has accumulated 50 movement points, it moves into the next hex on its current heading.

Aircraft carrier operations are hampered by insufficient wind across the flight deck, so it is necessary to turn a carrier into the wind for most major air operations. In addition, the deck capacity of carriers is extremely important, and the management of flight deck space is clearly the most important skill to master.

Maintaining a smooth flow of air operations is a complex task. CAP and search planes must be launched and landed. Air strikes, combining fighters, bombers, and torpedo planes must be launched, formed up overhead, and sent on their way. Meanwhile, there are aircraft returning and circling overhead, waiting for the chance to land. And you, in overall command, must keep track of wind direction, heading and traffic on the flight deck. Not surprisingly, a task force that is busy with air operations, frequently moving into the wind to conduct those operations, will make little headway in any direction but directly into the wind during a period of extended air operations.

Gary Grigsby aptly describes the computer opponent as "not terribly creative tactically, but his staff is superb." And indeed it is. While you are grappling with the problem of having been too aggressive, having launched so many bombers that you must watch an entire squadron of fighters in the landing circle ditch for lack of available deck space, you will be chagrined to realize that the Japanese computer opponent does not make that same kind of mistakes.

There are some limitations to the structure of the program that make it rather unforgiving, and thus, give the computer opponent an edge. For example, once an air group has been placed in the Landing Circle the group cannot be "waved off" ... it must land in the next hour, and it must land in the task force in which it was designated to land during the previous hour. If you have a one carrier task force, even if it occupies the same hex as another carrier task force, and if there are no air operations left for the designated carrier, there is no way for you to safely land those planes on an alternate carrier. The lesson then, is to always be aware of your aircraft situation.

CF lends itself to having two human players share duties in a game against the computer opponent. It is a handful to plot and log effective search patterns without either missing an area or duplicating searches. It is also a chore to keep track of aircraft operations such that returning aircraft have a place to land. And, it is a chore to make sure that attack aircraft can reach their targets and still get back to their carriers, especially if those carriers must zig-zag into the wind to launch or retrieve planes while the strike is enroute to its target.

Dividing those duties among two or more players, so that one player is the overall TF commander, and the other is either an individual carrier commander or the overall group commander, will allow for more people to participate without slowing down the game. It will also reduce the likelihood of a bookkeeping foul-up that could strip a carrier of many of its planes. In initial playings of CF, I have found more of my plane losses coming from such foul-ups than from Japanese actions.

CF has been exhaustively researched, and beautifully produced. In many ways it is the kind of game that we had in mind several years ago when we were daydreaming about where the wargaming hobby was headed now that the computer had arrived. The tedium of bookkeeping is gone, replaced with the real feel of the "fog of war."

Tom Cheche provided historical research
in the development of CARRIER FORCE.


[from Computer Gaming World magazine, Vol. 4 No. 2, April 1984]




RedArgo -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/23/2008 1:18:37 PM)

I played that one a lot. And it's follow up War in the South Pacific. I don't remember much about how challenging it was, I wasn't very good so I probably thought it was too hard.

I notice the price was $60 in 1984. I think that was the standard price for SSI games back then. What would that be in 2008 $?

Bill




sterckxe -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/23/2008 1:36:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedArgo
I notice the price was $60 in 1984. I think that was the standard price for SSI games back then. What would that be in 2008 $?


$120

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

That's why I can't understand people whining about how expensive games have gotten. They haven't. They've actually halved in price since I first started wargaming.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




BoredStiff -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/23/2008 4:32:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedArgo

I played that one a lot.

Me too, it was awesome. I even hotseated it a few times against a buddy.

quote:

And it's follow up War in the South Pacific.

Again, same here. WitSP was even better, at least for about the first month or so of playing it, after which I discovered that the Japanese AI never built bases. This killed the game, as it was impossible to win without building bases. I remember one had to turn over the floppy to enter the base-building routine, so maybe that's why the AI couldn't do it. That was a HUGE dissappointment.
I'll try to find a review of WitSP.

quote:

I notice the price was $60 in 1984. I think that was the standard price for SSI games back then. What would that be in 2008 $?

Remember that the price shown in this magazine review is the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail price. The actual prices you would find in stores are often at least $10 lower, sometimes even less.




sullafelix -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/23/2008 5:46:48 PM)

Not only SSI but every game I bought at that time was $ 59.99. Addons were $ 24.99 for each new plane for SWOTL. These prices were at every store I bought from.




Toby42 -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/23/2008 7:15:13 PM)

The Inflation Calculator only goes through 2007. Here are the numbers:

What cost $59.99 in 1984 would cost $118.27 in 2007.




E -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/23/2008 7:15:48 PM)

Carrier Force! ...is actually still on my hard drive! (actually, almost all of my Apple ][ SSI collection is still on my hard drive, with the originals sitting in two BIG boxes in my closet).

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoredStiff
Remember that the price shown in this magazine review is the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail price. The actual prices you would find in stores are often at least $10 lower, sometimes even less.

The prices you found in-stores for SSI games in the early 80's was $59.00 period (later, they went to $35.00 for the SSI Rapidfire-like games). In those days, you paid retail, as you had no choice! Unless you had some super fantastic source for computer games in those days, methinks you weren't there? (and if you did have that super fantastic source, I hate you for not sharing the information back then! *grin*)




sterckxe -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/23/2008 7:44:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

The Inflation Calculator only goes through 2007. Here are the numbers:

What cost $59.99 in 1984 would cost $118.27 in 2007.


That's why I posted $120 - should be at least that by now - and makes for a nice "doubling" effect.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




BoredStiff -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/23/2008 8:02:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: E

Carrier Force! ...is actually still on my hard drive! (actually, almost all of my Apple ][ SSI collection is still on my hard drive, with the originals sitting in two BIG boxes in my closet).

IMO, some of the things about those old games that still retain some value are the artwork and the typically extensive manuals.

quote:

The prices you found in-stores for SSI games in the early 80's was $59.00 period (later, they went to $35.00 for the SSI Rapidfire-like games). In those days, you paid retail, as you had no choice! Unless you had some super fantastic source for computer games in those days, methinks you weren't there? (and if you did have that super fantastic source, I hate you for not sharing the information back then! *grin*)

Oh, I was there alright. My source at the time was often the base exchange, which had things a bit cheaper, but I just don't remember typically paying $60 for computer games, even off base. I seem to remember about $40, plus tax.
One thing I have to emphasize is that I usually didn't rush out to buy the latest game as soon as it was released. Typically, I waited six months or so, if not longer, to see what the reviews and word-of-mouth had to say. That, and having to decide which game to buy on a limited budget, which also took some time.
This subject comes up quite a bit and I just don't remember spending $60 on computer games.




Sarge -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/23/2008 10:34:20 PM)


In 1984 the IIc with1.4 Mhz 128k would have set you back about $1300 + so according to your guys formula what should a new :

Allenware 3.67GHz 4GB cost today ?




E -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 4:01:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoredStiff

quote:

ORIGINAL: E
The prices you found in-stores for SSI games in the early 80's was $59.00 period (later, they went to $35.00 for the SSI Rapidfire-like games). In those days, you paid retail, as you had no choice! Unless you had some super fantastic source for computer games in those days, methinks you weren't there? (and if you did have that super fantastic source, I hate you for not sharing the information back then! *grin*)

Oh, I was there alright. My source at the time was often the base exchange, which had things a bit cheaper, but I just don't remember typically paying $60 for computer games, even off base. I seem to remember about $40, plus tax.
One thing I have to emphasize is that I usually didn't rush out to buy the latest game as soon as it was released. Typically, I waited six months or so, if not longer, to see what the reviews and word-of-mouth had to say. That, and having to decide which game to buy on a limited budget, which also took some time.
This subject comes up quite a bit and I just don't remember spending $60 on computer games.


Well, I can gaurantee you MY BX had NO SSI games (in fact, they had no computer games at all! ...for years!). There was only one place within 50 miles that had ANY computer wargames. Those were the days though! That store let you try before you bought the game (using their in-store machine). So I always had a good idea of what I was buying.

Oddly enough, when the BX started getting wargames here, they were always priced at full retail. Whereas there was more competition off base by then and the prices were better downtown. (that is still the case!).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
In 1984 the IIc with1.4 Mhz 128k would have set you back about $1300 +

Hmmm, my Apple ][e with all the bells (duodisk drive) and whistles (imagewriter) cost me over $2500.00 (and I bought it SPECIFICALLY for a wargame opponent) then a color TV to see what the terrain really was, cost another $169. Friends and family thought I was sometime bigtime programmer, because they'd see me using a green monitor and a small color TV (I'd use the green screen to read the text and the color to see what the terrain was). When they found out it was to play a "silly war - GAME," they would, (get this), LAUGH at me!




E -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 4:20:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoredStiff

quote:

ORIGINAL: E

Carrier Force! ...is actually still on my hard drive! (actually, almost all of my Apple ][ SSI collection is still on my hard drive, with the originals sitting in two BIG boxes in my closet).

IMO, some of the things about those old games that still retain some value are the artwork and ...


Ummm, okay. That 48k artwork gets you, does it? *grin*

[image]local://upfiles/26541/749FEE78568E4BBC9EECA36786A1457D.jpg[/image]




BoredStiff -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 4:42:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: E
Well, I can gaurantee you MY BX had NO SSI games (in fact, they had no computer games at all! ...for years!).

I guess everyone's experience is different. I bought my first two Commodore 64 computer games (Carrier Force and Silent Service) at the BX.




BoredStiff -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 5:11:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: E

Ummm, okay. That 48k artwork gets you, does it? *grin*

I was referring to the box art and various pics inside the manuals for many of the games.

Unlike today's photo-montaged and photoshopped pics, the earlier computer game boxes actually had some great artwork. I can't find a screenshot of the original box art for Carriers at War, which was a good example.

As for the excellent manuals, the one for Gettysburg: The Turning Point, for example, lists every division, it's various attributes, as well as it's commander's name, a very useful reference for today's scenario designers.
Other games, such as Kampfgruppe, if I remember correctly, had beautiful tables of equipment which included pics and attributes of the various weapons.

I'm just saying that those old game boxes and manuals are not necessarily worthless. I think it's kinda cool that you still have them.




E -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 5:16:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoredStiff

quote:

ORIGINAL: E
Well, I can gaurantee you MY BX had NO SSI games (in fact, they had no computer games at all! ...for years!).

I guess everyone's experience is different. I bought my first two Commodore 64 computer games (Carrier Force and Silent Service) at the BX.

I'm guessing your $10.00+ off of retail experience for SSI is pretty unique (more so, in that most people didn't have access to BX's back then... or now for that matter). So we're back to the one poster's original statement about SSI games' standard $60.00 pricing (which was for the "big box" games).

BTW, what year(s) did CF & SS (microprose) come out for the commie? (1983 for CF and 1985 for SS for the Apple) I'd assume later for commies in those days, as SSI still tended to do the Apple versions first, then convert to commie & Atari around that time (in later years that changed).

I think the real beauty in those games is how much they got out of 48k! I'd almost be willing to bet that no programmer's today could get as much bang for the K!




E -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 5:56:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoredStiff
I was referring to the box art and various pics inside the manuals for many of the games.

Unlike today's photo-montaged and photoshopped pics, the earlier computer game boxes actually had some great artwork. I can't find a screenshot of the original box art for Carriers at War, which was a good example.

A few were pretty nice. Mostly the Civil War & Napoleonics games boxes. Alot were not that hot, but were effective.

I've attached a Carriers at War cover pic... but sorry it's so small (I did it, along with a whole lot of others, for web page I used to run from '96 to '01'ish). Funny you bring up Carriers at War. It was the one game I couldn't try at the store I talked about earlier. It needed 128k and their machine had 64k. I gambled and bought it. Hated it. That old SSG interface... *ARGH*

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoredStiff
I'm just saying that those old game boxes and manuals are not necessarily worthless. I think it's kinda cool that you still have them.

I still boot up the games from time to time (in fact I got carried away trying a turn of SSG's Europe Ablaze, with my personally hated SSG interface, before being notified we posted at about the same time). (just like new games, it's more fun to figure them out without the manuals. ...at first. *grin*)

I definitely don't think they're worthless (or I never would have collected almost ALL of them! *grin*. But I doubt they're worth much on the open market. (in fact, I was eyeing some spare copies of several of the manuals we're talking about, on E-bay for $0.50 each).

[image]local://upfiles/26541/5500E69F7602468EA8F549CAF69361DD.jpg[/image]




Neilster -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 6:16:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoredStiff

quote:

ORIGINAL: E

Carrier Force! ...is actually still on my hard drive! (actually, almost all of my Apple ][ SSI collection is still on my hard drive, with the originals sitting in two BIG boxes in my closet).

IMO, some of the things about those old games that still retain some value are the artwork and ...


Ummm, okay. That 48k artwork gets you, does it? *grin*

[image]local://upfiles/26541/749FEE78568E4BBC9EECA36786A1457D.jpg[/image]

That would be the "high resolution map" they mentioned. It looks a bit like New Guinea if you squint (and take LSD).

Cheers, Neilster




E -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 6:39:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: E
Ummm, okay. That 48k artwork gets you, does it? *grin*

[image]local://upfiles/26541/749FEE78568E4BBC9EECA36786A1457D.jpg[/image]

That would be the "high resolution map" they mentioned. It looks a bit like New Guinea if you squint (and take LSD).

Uh-oh. Your quote implies not all wargamers take LSD to play? Could that explain my high-high-low-low loss/win ratio... oooh! Look at the colors my fingers leave in the air above the keyboard when I type soooooo fasssssst!

(actually, that was High Resolution for the day. Here's Bomb Alley by Grigsby in Not-High Resolution... *grin*)

[image]local://upfiles/26541/8B3B229AB6EF4BDD85CF04B7CD15D58F.gif[/image]




Neilster -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 7:07:50 AM)

I know. I remember when graphics looked like that. We were so hard-core...

Cheers, Neilster




BoredStiff -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 9:00:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: E

BTW, what year(s) did CF & SS (microprose) come out for the commie?

Don't know for sure. The review uptopic is from Computer Gaming World magazine, dated April 1984 and indicates the game had been released for the Atari and Apple at that time.
I suppose the C-64 version came out sometime after that. I bought my C-64 sometime the following year, 1985, along with the game.
Silent Service was also out for the C-64 at the time I bought the computer in 1985. In fact, it was these two games that compelled me to buy the computer.




BoredStiff -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 9:12:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: E

I've attached a Carriers at War cover pic... but sorry it's so small
[image]local://upfiles/26541/5500E69F7602468EA8F549CAF69361DD.jpg[/image]

Yes, that's the one. It's got kind of a Roger MacGowan watercolor look. Personally, I'd much rather see something like that than these photoshopped uglies they put on game boxes nowadays.
I mean, there are high school kids capable of doing that kind of art, so why can't a software developer/distributor use them? Give the youngster $250, along with a free game and a real foot in the door in the publishing world.

quote:

Hated it. That old SSG interface... *ARGH*
I don't remeber the interface, but I didn't care for the game either. Unlike the SSI titles, the SSG ones seemed to just play themselves, with minimal input from the player. Not my thing.




SuluSea -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 2:34:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe



That's why I posted $120 - should be at least that by now - and makes for a nice "doubling" effect.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Your inflation numbers are bogus. There are plenty more game developers and platforms in comparison to when PCs were in their infancy. Companies that were sticking it to the consumer in the past won't be in business long practicing those same tactics..




sterckxe -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 2:47:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
That's why I posted $120 - should be at least that by now - and makes for a nice "doubling" effect.


Your inflation numbers are bogus.


They're 100% accurate numbers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
There are plenty more game developers and platforms in comparison to when PCs were in their infancy. Companies that were sticking it to the consumer in the past won't be in business long practicing those same tactics..


Completely different issue - the question was how much a game costed back then, taking into account inflation.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




SuluSea -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 3:10:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

They're 100% accurate numbers.



I didn't check the numbers , I believe they are correct but your incessant ramblings of how gamers are getting a great deal because of what the games cost in the 80s and 90s aren't and therefore a bogus comment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
There are plenty more game developers and platforms in comparison to when PCs were in their infancy. Companies that were sticking it to the consumer in the past won't be in business long practicing those same tactics..


Completely different issue - the question was how much a game costed back then, taking into account inflation.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Not a completely different issue as I read you previous post in this thread in which you piggy backed your following comment which I quoted in my last post...

quote:

That's why I can't understand people whining about how expensive games have gotten. They haven't. They've actually halved in price since I first started wargaming.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx


here it is again.

There are plenty more game developers and platforms in comparison to when PCs were in their infancy. Companies that were sticking it to the consumer in the past won't be in business long practicing those same tactics..







sterckxe -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 4:11:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
I didn't check the numbers , I believe they are correct but your incessant ramblings of how gamers are getting a great deal because of what the games cost in the 80s and 90s aren't and therefore a bogus comment.


Why ?

Propositions :

1) In today's money a wargame back in 1984 costed anywhere from $100 to $120
2) Wargames today cost anywhere between $50 and $60

Conclusion :

Wargames have halved in price.

Anything to add ? Any disagreement on the propositions or on the math ? A blank "bogus" statement no doubt coming up again ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




SuluSea -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 4:33:57 PM)

Although I now realize the insanity of offering you a different viewpoint on this subject I'll try it just one more time.

There are plenty more game developers and platforms in comparison to when PCs were in their infancy. Companies that were sticking it to the consumer in the past won't be in business long practicing those same tactics.




sterckxe -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 5:06:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Although I now realize the insanity of offering you a different viewpoint on this subject I'll try it just one more time.

There are plenty more game developers and platforms in comparison to when PCs were in their infancy. Companies that were sticking it to the consumer in the past won't be in business long practicing those same tactics.


So what ? Why should I care about your rethoric on business practices then and now in a discussion on wargame prices and inflation ?

In other words : why are you still quibbling with me over my statement that wargames have halved in price since 1984. They either have or they haven't. I have *proven* they have, the only thing you have offered is rethoric on "business practices" and "sticking it to consumers". Whew - that blew my argument straight out of the water ...

Correction : I do know why you do it - because in another thread you've made the point that "wargames are too expensive for me". Could be, and I sympathize with your economical constraints, but that doesn't alter the simple truth that wargames today aren't as expensive as back then. It's not an opinion, it's a mathematical fact.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx




SuluSea -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 5:33:51 PM)

I've never disputed the mathematical fact if you read my comment it will tell you I agree. We seem to disagree on consumers "whining" as you put it. Prices haven't gone up because of competition in the market, that doesn't mean it is a deal now by any stretch. They were overpriced to begin with and what we see now among other things is a combination of more developers vying for the consumers entertianment dollar and a market correction .




Sarge -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 5:55:01 PM)


Your wasting your time Sulusea , sterckxe formula on inflation and free market would have us paying $250+ for DVD’s simple because Betamax cassettes tapes circa 1976 cost $40 + [:D]





JudgeDredd -> RE: Blast from the past: A review of Carrier Force (SSI, 1984) (9/24/2008 6:15:06 PM)

I have to agree...games have all but halved in price. But not across the board.

If I walk into Game to buy a PC game, if it's a popular one, I'll pay £34.99 (the price of Call of Duty 4).

In 1983, when I first bought a computer game, it was £34.99 - Strike Commander.

If I buy Call of Duty 4 on the net, I can get it for anything between £15 and £30.

In the shops, they cost as much as they did back then as far as I'm concerned...but I'm earning almost 3 times as much...




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