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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Close Combat Series >> Close Combat: Wacht am Rhein >> The War Room >> laser guided mortar?

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laser guided mortar? - 10/31/2008 5:23:30 AM

himmelstoss

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i am playing the map setz in the st. veit and no matter where i put my guys i am getting shredded by mortar and other shells. my pak nor my tanks have the slightest chance of hitting anything, but the shermans are all one shot wonders. now i am playing coi alot and never have i experienced anything like that. anyone else have a hard time with playin the germans?

thx,

himmelstoss

< Message edited by himmelstoss -- 10/31/2008 5:42:39 AM >

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RE: laser guided mortar? - 10/31/2008 5:39:10 AM

Andrew Williams

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I just popped 15 mortar shells at Firfoxes AT gun and gave up as a waste of ammo.

managed to get it later with an off board mortar strike.

Day 6 of my GC playing as Germans pictured

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Post #: 2

RE: laser guided mortar? - 10/31/2008 5:42:41 AM

himmelstoss

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From: CA, USA
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r u playing so u can see the allies, or have u realistic settings?

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RE: laser guided mortar? - 10/31/2008 6:06:23 AM

Andrew Williams

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As below

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RE: laser guided mortar? - 10/31/2008 6:55:49 AM

himmelstoss

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From: CA, USA
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gotcha.

i figed it out and gained a total victory. one just has to be really slow and careful with lots of smoke and the stugs need to be used very hidden (they seem stronger than the shermans).

thx,

himmel

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RE: laser guided mortar? - 10/31/2008 7:06:49 AM

Andrew Williams

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I made a video

"How to Capture Setz"

13min and the allies were routed.

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Post #: 6

RE: laser guided mortar? - 10/31/2008 4:56:43 PM

himmelstoss

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From: CA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

I made a video

"How to Capture Setz"

13min and the allies were routed.

sweet! would love to see it. u have a link for me by chance?

thx much,

himmel

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Post #: 7

RE: laser guided mortar? - 3/13/2009 5:15:13 AM

STIENER

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From: Vancouver, Canada
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i think the mortors are way too powerfull in this game. they take out a/c's with ease...h/t's too and also ...yes A/T guns! it actually wrecks the game IMHO. we went through this a million times with CC5 and GJS and had to dumb them down to make it playable. its not historically correct IMO with them being so accurate. i call BS on anyone who says you can destroy......not disable... a german A/C with an 80 mm mortor at 1000 yds.
any plans to dumb them down??

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RE: laser guided mortar? - 3/18/2009 11:47:00 PM

TheReal_Pak40

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Joined: 10/8/2003
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As I have stated on other forums:
A. 1000 yards distances are not even possible in CC so why are you even using that as an example? 400-500 would be the max on most CC maps so use that argument instead. And most cases where your A/C is destroyed the mortar is usually within 200 meters. And, yes, it is completely possible, in real life, to hit a vehicle at 200 meters with a mortar round.

B. Accuracy is not what causes the mortars to be too powerful. It's the quickness to bring these rounds to bear on the target. In CC it takes about 2-3 seconds for a round to fly out the tube and impact near the target. In real life it should be something closer to 10-15 seconds. Add in time to align and elevate the tube, more time to communicate with spotters and the total result will be less lethal mortars.

If they're going to fix the mortar problem then fix it correctly! Quit asking them to dumb down the accuracy and ask them to fix the flight time of the round and institute time penalties when the mortar team doesn't have LOS to the target etc...

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Post #: 9

RE: laser guided mortar? - 3/19/2009 1:01:25 AM

STIENER

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obviously this thread got moved??? too bad not all of it got moved......PZT Serk makes some very good points in the other thread.

"Serk is making very good points IMO. your right that most maps in CC4 are about 500m maybe a bigger in some maps [ the maps in GJS are up to 1000m ] but in CC4 the terrain is very hilly and full of tree's and buildings. in short LOS is vey poor over long distances. the short of this is mortors are too damn accurate and lots of players agree. hitting a moving target at 400m ..1200 yds! is not an easy thing ..spotter or not...were talking about WW2 mortors her with sometimes.. and at the bulge...GREEN yank crews.

the short of it [ again ]�still is there too damn accurate and powerful and IMO [ and serks too ] we need something done about it to make game play better. thats what its all about is game play�for gods sake."
i dont care if they fix it correctly.......i believe they cant anyways because some of this is hard coded into the game.....so just fix it. surely the game designers have played GJS......i know some have because i know some of the design team! look at that mod and put in the mortor data!??? so why is it always a prolonged argument on these threads till we all just give up and say piss on it and go on to another game and company??? CC has great potentiall and a good following but if matrix is going to make any money selling these CC remake games then they better start listening to the guys who are buying them. this is so damn annoying. i just didnt waste my time on a wim and say mortors are too accaurate and powerful....i have been playing the game.......i bought the game....i bought the original�6 + years ago too...i bought it this time expecting it to be better...and find that theres still stuff we dont like and it makes playability poor!

and Pak 40 ...try playing a Good CC player who takes 4 or 5 mortor teams and see how you fair??? have you??

< Message edited by STIENER -- 3/19/2009 1:02:26 AM >

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Post #: 10

RE: laser guided mortar? - 3/19/2009 8:44:20 AM

Moss Orleni

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quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER
the short of it [ again ]�still is there too damn accurate and powerful and IMO [ and serks too ] we need something done about it to make game play better. thats what its all about is game play�for gods sake."
i dont care if they fix it correctly.......i believe they cant anyways because some of this is hard coded into the game.....so just fix it.

You can easily fix this yourself: in the Data Workbook's Weapons sheet, lookup the column J (Time to Fire) and increase its value ... notice the effect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER
surely the game designers have played GJS......i know some have because i know some of the design team! look at that mod and put in the mortor data!??? so why is it always a prolonged argument on these threads till we all just give up and say piss on it and go on to another game and company???

Strange, I started using this tactic (picking out open toppeds) in GJS because it was quite effective. I suppose it's often a matter of perception.

quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER
and Pak 40 ...try playing a Good CC player who takes 4 or 5 mortor teams and see how you fair??? have you??

IMO, with 5 mortar teams out of 15, in WaR, you will get massacred by a good CC player, even in 15min ...
We are near to finishing our H2H GC in WaR (17 turns of let's say 10 battles, so around 170 battles), and looking at the soldier kill statistics, mortars are really not the infantry killers one might think. I'll take a HMG over a mortar any day when playing H2H. Or a heavy barrage of course, if you really want it flattened :o)

Moss

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Post #: 11

RE: laser guided mortar? - 3/19/2009 8:29:11 PM

TheReal_Pak40

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quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

"the short of this is mortors are too damn accurate and lots of players agree. hitting a moving target at 400m ..1200 yds!

And I'm telling you that the accuracy isn't really the problem. It's the incorrect coding in the game that lets the player or AI instantly fire a mortar on a target AND the very short flight time of the round. If Matrix were to correct this to more realistic settings, then you WILL see mortar accuracy drop drastically against moving targets.

Try placing a round mortar round on a moving half track with a 20 second delay from the time of targeting. It WILL be near impossible to hit that half track because you will have to guess where the half track will be 20 seconds into the future.

quote:

the short of it [ again ]�still is there too damn accurate and powerful and IMO [ and serks too ] we need something done about it to make game play better. i dont care if they fix it correctly.......i believe they cant anyways because some of this is hard coded into the game.....so just fix it.

Well, I do care if they fix it correctly. Why "fix" it incorrectly, where's the sense in that?

The accuracy thing is debatable. I can't find any direct documentation about how accurate a mortar is or isn't. I have read 1st person accounts of how accurate that can be if the crew has direct LOS.

However, what is NOT debatable is the flight time that it takes for mortar rounds to impact. There are videos on youtube that show mortar crews at the firing range and you can time the rounds yourself.

quote:

so why is it always a prolonged argument on these threads till we all just give up and say piss on it and go on to another game and company??? CC has great potentiall and a good following but if matrix is going to make any money selling these CC remake games then they better start listening to the guys who are buying them. this is so damn annoying.

It doesn't have to be a prolonged argument. It just makes sense to do it right and therefore it's worth having a discussion about.

quote:

i just didnt waste my time on a wim and say mortors are too accaurate and powerful....i have been playing the game.......i bought the game....i bought the original�6 + years ago too...i bought it this time expecting it to be better...and find that theres still stuff we dont like and it makes playability poor!

Hey, I agree. The TacAI still sucks and so does the placement AI. I've been bitching about these things ever since CC:ABTF but Atomic never saw the value in improving these things.

quote:

and Pak 40 ...try playing a Good CC player who takes 4 or 5 mortor teams and see how you fair??? have you??

I bought the original game in 1996. Started playing online in 1997 with ABTF and played it religiously for about 2-3 years. So, yes, I've played against all sorts of players. Some good, some bad. I have certainly won more than I've lost.

Playing against a good human opponent that chooses 4-5 mortars just means that he's weak in other areas. You just need to figure out what and where and hope that you have the right units to combat it.

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Post #: 12

RE: laser guided mortar? - 3/30/2009 7:59:37 AM

inquisiteur

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If you reduce the effectiveness of mortars there will be no way for an attacker to use his tanks properly. The only effective and reliable way to destroy a AT gun is to spot it with infantry and shell it with a mortar.

Think about it, if you take out mortars, how could you possibly still use tanks against somone pulling out 4 AT guns ?

The first thing I do when attacking is to go hunt out for AT guns using my mortars, and when this is done, just lead the way with my tanks.

< Message edited by inquisiteur -- 3/30/2009 8:01:31 AM >

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Post #: 13

RE: laser guided mortar? - 4/2/2009 4:10:18 AM

TheReal_Pak40

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quote:

ORIGINAL: inquisiteur

If you reduce the effectiveness of mortars there will be no way for an attacker to use his tanks properly. The only effective and reliable way to destroy a AT gun is to spot it with infantry and shell it with a mortar.

Think about it, if you take out mortars, how could you possibly still use tanks against somone pulling out 4 AT guns ?

The first thing I do when attacking is to go hunt out for AT guns using my mortars, and when this is done, just lead the way with my tanks.

Under the changes that I propose to mortars, the mortar wouldn't be weakened in strength or accuracy. Only the time that it takes for the crew to aim and adjust the tube elevation and the flight time of the rounds would be increased. Therefore it would be harder to hit moving targets such as running infantry or Half Tracks, but more static targets such as AT guns would be just as easy to kill. It will only take longer for the rounds to start landing, as it is in real life. Therefore AT guns would survive a little longer but they would still be able to be destroyed. This will also address one of the main complaints about AT guns (short life span once they are no longer hidden).

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Post #: 14

RE: laser guided mortar? - 4/18/2009 7:15:26 PM

Anthropoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moss Orleni

quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER
the short of it [ again ]�still is there too damn accurate and powerful and IMO [ and serks too ] we need something done about it to make game play better. thats what its all about is game play�for gods sake."
i dont care if they fix it correctly.......i believe they cant anyways because some of this is hard coded into the game.....so just fix it.

You can easily fix this yourself: in the Data Workbook's Weapons sheet, lookup the column J (Time to Fire) and increase its value ... notice the effect.

Is there a document somewhere in here that gives a key to this .txt file, i.e., what each column is for?

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Post #: 15

RE: laser guided mortar? - 4/18/2009 9:48:02 PM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
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Go here: http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/WaR/WaRmods.html

Download the workbook

It is currently being updated but this version will get you going.

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Post #: 16

RE: laser guided mortar? - 4/20/2009 2:52:55 PM

Anthropoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

Go here: http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/WaR/WaRmods.html

Download the workbook

It is currently being updated but this version will get you going.

Kewl. Thanks Andrew!