Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815 >> Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Other deviations: free state declaration and returning ... - 11/12/2008 4:13:20 PM   
Ashtar

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline 		I just realized that in EIANW you can get extra political points for some STRANGE reasons:

+1 pp for declaring a free state out of a conquered minor (no trace in official EIA rule)
quote:

4.8 THE FREE STATE DECLARATION STEP: Major powers can declare that any of their conquered minor countries that can have corps are now minor free states. Replace the conquered control flag with a free state control flag in that country. Its fleet if any, is set up at its current strength and its corps, fleets, land, and naval factors may be purchased begining in the next Economic Phase (see 8.2 and 8.5). Once a major power has declared a minor country to be a free state, it may not be later "undeclared" (ie., switched back to being a conquered minor country by that major power).

and
+2 pps for returning a captured leader (again non-existing rules)
quote:

10.6.3 LEADER CAPTURE: When all factors on a side or in a pinning force with which a leader is present are eliminated by combat that leader is captured by any major power on the opposing side of the owning player's choice. If a leader becomes unstacked through losses incurred during besieged supply, the leader is captured by the besieging major power of the owning player's choice. Captured leaders must be returned as an effect of peace (see 4.4.6.1) and may be returned earlier at the option of the capturing player, the leader being placed on the board in any later appropriate Reinforcement Steps.


Why on earth these rules has been changed and these extra sources of pps have been added?
Post #: 1
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/12/2008 4:51:24 PM   
Soapy Frog

 

Posts: 282
Joined: 7/16/2005
Status: offline 		What the heck is this about? Marshall? What's going on with this?

(in reply to Ashtar)
Post #: 2
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/12/2008 5:01:52 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ashtar

I just realized that in EIANW you can get extra political points for some STRANGE reasons:

+1 pp for declaring a free state out of a conquered minor (no trace in official EIA rule)
quote:

4.8 THE FREE STATE DECLARATION STEP: Major powers can declare that any of their conquered minor countries that can have corps are now minor free states. Replace the conquered control flag with a free state control flag in that country. Its fleet if any, is set up at its current strength and its corps, fleets, land, and naval factors may be purchased begining in the next Economic Phase (see 8.2 and 8.5). Once a major power has declared a minor country to be a free state, it may not be later "undeclared" (ie., switched back to being a conquered minor country by that major power).

and
+2 pps for returning a captured leader (again non-existing rules)
quote:

10.6.3 LEADER CAPTURE: When all factors on a side or in a pinning force with which a leader is present are eliminated by combat that leader is captured by any major power on the opposing side of the owning player's choice. If a leader becomes unstacked through losses incurred during besieged supply, the leader is captured by the besieging major power of the owning player's choice. Captured leaders must be returned as an effect of peace (see 4.4.6.1) and may be returned earlier at the option of the capturing player, the leader being placed on the board in any later appropriate Reinforcement Steps.


Why on earth these rules has been changed and these extra sources of pps have been added?


My first guess would be that the PPs were added somewhere in EiH, so you might want to go and comb through those rules to see.

(in reply to Ashtar)
Post #: 3
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/12/2008 7:45:42 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		The leader release pp was a change that we added a little over a year ago and I do not remember the precedent (optioanl rule, etc.). The abstraction was for a nation showing a gentlemen's approach to captured leaders, officers, etc.

The freestate issue looks to be a bug???? I will look into this...


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 4
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/13/2008 4:33:16 AM   
Thresh

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 12/25/2006
From: KCMO
Status: offline 		I am pretty sure the PP for Free State is an EiH thing, you used to get a PP by making a minor state a Client State, which in EiH meant Free State.  It does make some sense IMO. 

Todd


(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 5
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/13/2008 9:57:53 AM   
Ashtar

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

The leader release pp was a change that we added a little over a year ago and I do not remember the precedent (optioanl rule, etc.). The abstraction was for a nation showing a gentlemen's approach to captured leaders, officers, etc.


The problem is that it can be easily exploited. and 2pp are a LOT.
Some leaders are important (Nappy, Wellington, Nelson, Blucher...) but most are crap.
Force Austria to a royal marriage and you get one point, break an alliance and you lose two, release Eugene and you gain two? That is crazy!
In my game I indeed captured Eugene and it was clear that for 2pp it was by far convenient to release him rather then keeping him in the London tower.

quote:

I am pretty sure the PP for Free State is an EiH thing, you used to get a PP by making a minor state a Client State, which in EiH meant Free State. It does make some sense IMO.

I do not see why it should make sense. In EIA conquering a minor was a 0 sum business: -1 to declare war, + 1 to capture it. Now there are some states (the one with corps) which can give you a +1 pp as a total for your conquest effort(declare war, capture it and then make it free when your army is full). This extra source of pp clearly unbalance the game...

I just wish people would be more careful before tampering with base game mechanics...

(in reply to Thresh)
Post #: 6
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/13/2008 12:24:21 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thresh

I am pretty sure the PP for Free State is an EiH thing, you used to get a PP by making a minor state a Client State, which in EiH meant Free State.  It does make some sense IMO. 

Todd




Actually, I do not see this in EiH. It looks to me that I am giving a pp much like someone gaining control as a sponsor. I will log this and fix her up...


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Thresh)
Post #: 7
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/13/2008 5:30:34 PM   
Thresh

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 12/25/2006
From: KCMO
Status: offline 		I remember it from EiH, which is why I never logged it...

:-)

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 8
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/13/2008 6:58:23 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		The +2 PP for Leader returns is out of whack. That is more than a reward for an international alliance.

I scanned through EiH v 5.0 pretty thoroughly and could find no reference to the PP for free states. That said, I have playtested it pretty extensively and it works just fine so if you do take it out, I'd at least make it an option.

Ashtar is correct that we have to maintain some balance in PPs, but if every body has relatively equal access to a PP metric, then the balance is maintained.

Besides, whenever one fellow gets ahead there is more than enough power in the remaining 6 to stomp him, GB at sea perhaps excepted.

_____________________________

"Crisis is the rallying cry of the tyrant" -- James Madison
"Yes, you will win most battles, but if you loose to me you will loose oh so badly that it causes me pain (chortle) just to think of it" - P. Khan

(in reply to Thresh)
Post #: 9
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/14/2008 5:25:14 AM   
Grognot

 

Posts: 409
Joined: 12/7/2007
Status: offline 		+2 PP for releasing, say, Eugene, Alexander or Mack might be a bit odd, but I'm not sure how much that'd matter in MP games.  The AI likes its A-levels more than it generally should.

I could see keeping it on a tiered level -- perhaps +2 / 1 / 0 for releasing A, B, C for instance.

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 10
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/14/2008 12:48:26 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		I might adjust this later based on seniority but this will be out a ways...


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Grognot)
Post #: 11
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/14/2008 1:23:49 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: East Coast
Status: offline 		I would be careful with seniority basing. There are quite a few A and B leaders that are of limited (Mack included) or no use.

Given that one gets only 2 PP for a royal marriage and 1 PP for an international alliance, I would either toss this PP bonus or limit it to only for royal/imperial leaders.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 12
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/14/2008 1:39:10 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		The seniority is definitely not skill based but I think it was a good indicator of his prestige element. I think releasing Alexander back to Russia is worth some pp (Qty certainly debatable).

Moral to the story is not to let your leaders get captured.



_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 13
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/14/2008 7:21:05 PM   
Thresh

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 12/25/2006
From: KCMO
Status: offline 		Theres no such thing as a free state in EiH.  Theres Client State,which is the same thing, and you used to get a PP for creating one.

Todd

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 14
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/15/2008 12:19:35 AM   
delatbabel


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		I don't have a problem with +1 for creating a free/client state, however it is not currently -1 PP to turn a free state back to conquered.  So players can go and gain PPs forever by making conquered states into free states and vice-versa.



_____________________________

--
Del

(in reply to Thresh)
Post #: 15
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/17/2008 1:28:01 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		This is the reason I think I need to eliminate the 1pp for creation. It all needs to be a zero sum game on thje minor stuff.

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to delatbabel)
Post #: 16
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/17/2008 3:55:50 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		Well, "sort of" zero-sum. I get a free political point out of minors about 40% of the time, simply by intelligent use of their factors/corps. Another 30%, the other player gets a PP. Also, I frequently get to kill some of his troops. Maximizing troop loss is always a noble goal.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 17
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/17/2008 3:56:16 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline 		But, I do agree with getting rid of the PP.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 18
RE: Other deviations: free state declaration and return... - 11/17/2008 5:31:18 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Understood!


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 19
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815 >> Other deviations: free state declaration and returning leaders Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.422